[Sean_A]

Many a good or at least impassioned post here, but as a total outsider with no vested interest and no desire to smugly dismiss a poster like Garland, I'm left to wonder: why does Ryan's post #150 seem to me so sane and reasonable, and both so well informed and well intentioned?
P

Pietro

It is interesting you and I have completely different takes on post 150. I don't think it is particularly well intentioned. I don't understand why the acceptance of visitor money should mean that rules will be waived. I don't understand what "deserves better" means. Better as in Garland is better than the members and therefore deserves rules exemptions?

This situation isn't about what Ryan thinks are reasonable rules. I think the sock rule is silly. So what?

I agree the pro might have taken the bull by the horns and contacted whoever he needed to ask for a rule waiver. I also think the pro might have already known the answer to that request. I have seen the situation arise twice in my visits to Elie and heard of it from other people. In each case the visitor found a way to comply with the rules. I imagine the socks /shorts rule has to be forced many times a month in season. It is completely bewildering to me why someone would travel to another country to play golf and somehow expect not to be effected by the local culture.

Ciao

[Garland Bayley]

The reason Peter thinks Ryan's post is good, is because he seems to have read and understood what Ryan posted. I have to agree with Ryan that, with Muirfield's model as a guide, Elie could simply have had loaner rain pants on hand to loan.

Mark suggests that since I was in St Andrew's, I could have bought a pair of pants. Since we stayed at a farm house outside of town, and went to the castle course without going to St Andrews, he simply demonstrates how so many people are making assumptions and posting based on falsehoods.

I spent my time before going to Elie on the phone, on the web, and on email trying to get our luggage delivered to the farm house. It was delivered while we were golfing at Elie using my instructions on where to leave it since we wouldn't be there.

The airlines use a company named Menzies to handle these baggage situations. It is the most unresponsive, ineffective company I have ever dealt with. Even my recent encounter with the IRS here showed the IRS to be more responsive, and effective.

[Sean_A]

Garland

Yes, of course the club could have a few pairs of loaner rain bottoms. Is it such an imposition that the club didn't offer this service? Is that really where you want to draw a line in the sand? All this business about he could have done this or that for me is not something you should hang your hat on. The entire episode is small beer. To me that should be the main take away...with a smile across your face. 

Ciao

[Mike Sweeney]

The entire episode is small beer.

That is a fantastic expression. The re-popping of this thread made me read you original reviews, and thank you for these reviews. I simply love "Arble Winter Tours" and other even more after a recent trip.


Slainte

[Ryan Coles]

Many a good or at least impassioned post here, but as a total outsider with no vested interest and no desire to smugly dismiss a poster like Garland, I'm left to wonder: why does Ryan's post #150 seem to me so sane and reasonable, and both so well informed and well intentioned?
P

Because it’s far too reasonable.


Posters continue to delight in Garland falling foul, and the more this sort of stuff occurs, the more attractive these policies become to them.


Where I don’t agree with Garland is whether a particular Club is good enough to justify its standards or position. That’s a matter for them. I believe in their right to their rules and policy. But I believe in the paying customers right to find it ridiculous and say so.


I just repeat, helpfulness and doing what you can within the constraints you must operate within is not just good service, but a decent way to treat people. There was a better way for the Club and Clubs to deal with this. But then, as this thread shows, people are strange.


On GCA, Elie’s stock has risen for charging an overseas visitor whose airline had lost his luggage rrp for trousers. People revel in this nonsense and they revel and take delight in it here. It’s the people in the thread I say like bringing others down a peg or two. Chances are if you asked the starter, he may well agree with me. Who knows? Just doing his job.

[Ryan Coles]

Many a good or at least impassioned post here, but as a total outsider with no vested interest and no desire to smugly dismiss a poster like Garland, I'm left to wonder: why does Ryan's post #150 seem to me so sane and reasonable, and both so well informed and well intentioned?
P

Pietro

It is interesting you and I have completely different takes on post 150. I don't think it is particularly well intentioned. I don't understand why the acceptance of visitor money should mean that rules will be waived. I don't understand what "deserves better" means. Better as in Garland is better than the members and therefore deserves rules exemptions?

This situation isn't about what Ryan thinks are reasonable rules. I think the sock rule is silly. So what?

I agree the pro might have taken the bull by the horns and contacted whoever he needed to ask for a rule waiver. I also think the pro might have already known the answer to that request. I have seen the situation arise twice in my visits to Elie and heard of it from other people. In each case the visitor found a way to comply with the rules. I imagine the socks /shorts rule has to be forced many times a month in season. It is completely bewildering to my why someone would travel to another country to play golf and somehow expect not to be effected by the local culture.

Ciao

Sean


A recent post you saw fit to criticise a course nearby effected by well documented drought.


A criticism others playing that day did not feel justified.


Rightfully, you judge courses relative to what you pay and look for value in what you’re experiencing. You paid your money, they have to live with your public criticism whether they like it or not.


There is a distinction between the members and Garland. They live down the road. Circumvention of the policy would be a choice on their part. Garland’s was down to unfortunate circumstances. Only robots providing poor service would fail to find a better way than the most profitable shop
In Scotland sell him some trousers on top of their greenfees.


Garland paid for his round, and paid for new attire for his offspring in the process. He’s entitled to express his view, as you are yours as you frequently, without a hint of self doubt do.




Small beer indeed.

[Ryan Coles]

We can only hope that someone at Elie reads this site and is having a good laugh at Garland’s expense...because I certainly am.

Exhibit A

[Ryan Coles]

Elie has quickly become my favorite club in Scotland (and I’ve never been there). It’s now an absolute must-play.

Exhibit B

[Ryan Coles]

Coming over for the BUDA in September.
After reading this thread, The Golf House Club is a MUST for me.

Do you think I should leave my cargo pants at home?

Oh wait - I don't own any.

I hope the club will consider a framed photo of Garland to commemorate this entertaining episode. After all, the memories are what make us human.

Ideally the photo would be framed with a much-deserved Doak 0 visitor ranking.

Exhibit C


They just love it.


They just wish they were on hand to witness it in person, as he was frogmarched to the pro shop.


The game is sadly played and frequented by such people. A real shame. It’s a great sport that more would play. Sadly adopted as their own by these types.

[Ryan Coles]

Coming over for the BUDA in September.
After reading this thread, The Golf House Club is a MUST for me.

Do you think I should leave my cargo pants at home?

Oh wait - I don't own any.

‘Golf never judges, it brings out who you are’.

[BHoover]

The original poster disparaged a club and course after he and his son (a) failed to consult the club’s posted dress code on the website and/or (b) failed to pack additional appropriate clothing in their carry-on baggage. Did they ask to borrow rain pants? No, instead he threw a fit in an online forum. But sure, those of us who criticize his behavior are the real problem. Okay.

[Ryan Coles]

Nice attempt at back tracking.


What you do is revel in it. As I said originally. It’s a big part of the attraction of the sport for you - the baggage that comes with it.


Elie is your new favourite course in Scotland. Your words.

[BHoover]

Nice attempt at back tracking.

What you do is revel in it. As I said originally. It’s a big part of the attraction of the sport for you - the baggage that comes with it.

Elie is your new favourite course in Scotland. Your words.

I’m not back tracking. I said it’s my favorite, and it now is. You have no idea what I enjoy about golf — but someone throwing a fit over not being granted an exemption from a club’s rules is not worth defending. As an American, I’m embarrassed a fellow countryman would think the rules should not apply to him.

[Kalen Braley]

But, this is my favorite combo... the famous Royal Cinque Ports stripes!

The power of the Deal Stripes allowed me to chop down the mighty oak which is Ben Stephens at Hollinwell!!! 

Mike,

I ain't trying to chuck you under the bus, i'm sure you're a swell chap and all...

But for the life of me I can't figure how an abortion of an outfit like this is OK for UK golf, but a nice pair of denim pants is right out.  Sweet Jebus...

P.S.  I know Garland, we've played golf together and he's a very easy going/laid back kind of guy so i'll give him the benefit of the doubt on this one....

[Sean_A]

Many a good or at least impassioned post here, but as a total outsider with no vested interest and no desire to smugly dismiss a poster like Garland, I'm left to wonder: why does Ryan's post #150 seem to me so sane and reasonable, and both so well informed and well intentioned?
P

Pietro

It is interesting you and I have completely different takes on post 150. I don't think it is particularly well intentioned. I don't understand why the acceptance of visitor money should mean that rules will be waived. I don't understand what "deserves better" means. Better as in Garland is better than the members and therefore deserves rules exemptions?

This situation isn't about what Ryan thinks are reasonable rules. I think the sock rule is silly. So what?

I agree the pro might have taken the bull by the horns and contacted whoever he needed to ask for a rule waiver. I also think the pro might have already known the answer to that request. I have seen the situation arise twice in my visits to Elie and heard of it from other people. In each case the visitor found a way to comply with the rules. I imagine the socks /shorts rule has to be forced many times a month in season. It is completely bewildering to my why someone would travel to another country to play golf and somehow expect not to be effected by the local culture.

Ciao

Sean

A recent post you saw fit to criticise a course nearby effected by well documented drought.

A criticism others playing that day did not feel justified.

Rightfully, you judge courses relative to what you pay and look for value in what you’re experiencing. You paid your money, they have to live with your public criticism whether they like it or not.

There is a distinction between the members and Garland. They live down the road. Circumvention of the policy would be a choice on their part. Garland’s was down to unfortunate circumstances. Only robots providing poor service would fail to find a better way than the most profitable shop
In Scotland sell him some trousers on top of their greenfees.

Garland paid for his round, and paid for new attire for his offspring in the process. He’s entitled to express his view, as you are yours as you frequently, without a hint of self doubt do.

Small beer indeed.

Ryan

If you equate criticism of (unannounced) poor course conditions to a well publicised (some would say famous) dress code, its easy to understand why we aren't connecting on this matter.  There is plenty of room for all sorts of clubs and courses to suit anybody's taste and budget.  We really should be celebrating the different mores and cultures of clubs instead of trying to make all clubs conform to your personal ideals of what is right and reasonable.  I think the folks in this thread are really asking Garland to join in the celebration.  To me its boggling someone would dig their heels in over this kind of thing...and I am the sort that doesn't give a rats ass about what people wear and how they wear it.  I wish there were no rules about this stuff, but golf ain't like that and we all know this.

Mike Sweeney...thank you.

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

Actually, Ryan, probably less than half the Elie membership "live down the road".  The majority live at least an hour away, many far further.  I'm 3 hours away and I'd be surprised if I wasn't closer than 25% of the membership.  You can't get over ridiculous hyperbole when it comes to private clubs, though, can you? Frogmarched to the pro shop?

[Bill Gayne]

I've had similar situations and you just follow club rules. Buda at Rye and Littlestone, I forgot to pack my golf shirts (left them stacked on the bed at home) so I went to M&S in Canterbury and bought a couple of shirts along with shirts at Rye and Littlestone. I still wear the shirts here at home.


A member guest at Doonbeg and my clubs didn't make it due to the airlines so I paid to rent clubs and shoes.


The Muirfield comparison isn't a good one. Lunch at Muirfield is a unique situation and providing an often ill fitting jacket (left behind by a previous visitor) isn't waiving the dress requirement a lunch. As I understand it Garland wanted the dress requirement be waived and his son be allowed to play in denim. No club is going to carry an inventory of trousers for visitors to wear one time. 


Where should the accommodation end? Late arriving pants, yes, jackets at lunch, yes, collared shirts, no, clubs and shoes, no, knee length socks, no. These are golf clubs not charity shops.

[Michael Whitaker]

But, this is my favorite combo... the famous Royal Cinque Ports stripes!

The power of the Deal Stripes allowed me to chop down the mighty oak which is Ben Stephens at Hollinwell!!! 

Mike,

I ain't trying to chuck you under the bus, i'm sure you're a swell chap and all...

But for the life of me I can't figure how an abortion of an outfit like this is OK for UK golf, but a nice pair of denim pants is right out.  Sweet Jebus...

P.S.  I know Garland, we've played golf together and he's a very easy going/laid back kind of guy so i'll give him the benefit of the doubt on this one....

Ha Ha Ha Ha!!!! 

I can assure you two things:

1) I am always a vision of sartorial splendour 

and

2) I have never been refused access to a golf club due to my personal appearance! 
Here is the "On Course" dress code for my club in England... Royal Cinque Ports Golf Club:

• Tailored shorts are permitted on the course provided they are worn with knee length socks. Tennis or gym shorts are not permitted.
• Only collared and polo neck shirts are permitted on the course.
• Shirts must be tucked in at all times.
• Tailored trousers must be worn - no denim trousers are permitted.
• Golf shoes must be worn - no trainers are permitted.

[Michael Whitaker]

And, Kalen...
If you dislike the Deal club stockings you are really going to HATE the jackets! 

[Michael Whitaker]

And the tie!!!!!!!!!!

[Kalen Braley]

Michael,

Hilarious stuff, well played. The ties look great thou, just enough flair to make a point without overpowering.  Like a nice entree with a bit of colorful garnish. 

P.S.  Like Sean, I think most dress codes are so arbitrarily silly, it actually detracts overall...but given the world operates this way on so many levels, outwardly appearance vs content of character, tis what it is.

[Lou_Duran]

Where should the accommodation end? Late arriving pants, yes, jackets at lunch, yes, collared shirts, no, clubs and shoes, no, knee length socks, no. These are golf clubs not charity shops.

Gosh, Bill, a little harsh, don't you think?


Though I am of the mind that when in Rome you do as the Romans, or its derivative: "beggars can't be choosers", I can see common sense and a lot of grace in Ryan's initial comments.  No question that Garland didn't need to broadcast his displeasure, though, again, I sympathize with where he is coming from.  What would have been inconvenient or in any way costly for someone in the shop to fetch a pair of rain pants from the back so the lad could remain in compliance without having to dig deep into his pockets?  It is the little extras that people and clubs do, most often with little notice or bother, that make a great impression.


In regards to Mr. Whitaker's attire, i would have spent whatever extra on long trousers, though I would like to have seen him wear one of those stripped blazers with his socks.  As I recall, his MacKenzie Walker would have clashed for being so conservative.

[Tim Martin]

The long socks have a “munchkin land” look.

[Garland Bayley]

Michael,

Hilarious stuff, well played. The ties look great thou, just enough flair to make a point without overpowering.  Like a nice entree with a bit of colorful garnish. 

P.S.  Like Sean, I think most dress codes are so arbitrarily silly, it actually detracts overall...but given the world operates this way on so many levels, outwardly appearance vs content of character, tis what it is.

Outwardly appearance?!?! From what I have seen, it seems some people take great pleasure in gaming the dress code. All these people implying what an uncouth, country bumpkin I must be for not knowing the dress code. I knew the dress code, and wore tailored Greg Norman golf shorts with plans to buy the socks. When we arrived,  I took note of the group of hobos on the first tee, and figured they may not give us a problem about my son's pants. I was wrong, as there was no "let's think about what we can do to help with your predicament." Instead the tradition speech was delivered, and off to the pro shop where I figured there might be a problem fitting such a tall lad. No worries, they had a choice of pants in his size. I guess they have lots of opportunities to sell pants.

[Peter Pallotta]

The long socks have a “munchkin land” look.

I was thinking more Hobbit-like, from Hobbiton, in the Shire. After golf one can trundle over to Bree, for a pint at the Prancing Pony. Not that there's anything wrong with that -- after all, a Hobbit was the Ring Bearer, and they are a lovely people. But perhaps, sartorially speaking, I might feel a tad more comfortable with the people of Gondor, who currently reside (I believe) closer to Walton Heath.   

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