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BCowan

Jkava,

   You are a culture warrior.  I thought of you last weekend as I played with my UofM morning group.  They always have the first to tee times at 7am.  I was in the 2nd group in a 3 some with a 4 some ahead of us.  Our group played in 3:20 and we finished 2 holes behind the lead group.  I told them when we got in that they were Rake N Runners.  Why all the hurry?  Maybe speed limits should be looked at. 

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
I can recall then graduating onto steel shafted irons with small bladed heads (and even smaller sweet spots) and the thinnest grips, that stung every time you had a mis-hit, which was often.




Niall


Niall,
yet somehow you(and thousands of others) persevered and love the game.
No doubt better, lighter equipment helps juniors play better immediately.


having a limit on golf balls and rebound effect of clubs would surely seem a better target to improve the game and keep the scale manageable than going after a method of putting and grooves no?
they have taken actions on equipment, just horribly misguided and useless ones (see Bernhard Langer)
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
The USGA can't afford to make a misstep after pissing off GC/NBC a few years back with the Fox deal and how it was handled.  They also own GolfNow.  And then you also have the PGA who has graciously gone along with the USGA and never broached the subject of setting up their own set of rules.    I would expect that after the opening seen this weekend the GolfNow people will expedite any efforts they have to be a for profit "USGA" type of business offereing handicaps, tournaments and rules and being pushed daily on GC and catering to the masses the USGA ignores.  PGA leardership could also put their own set of rules out for PGA affiliated courses and really have a good go at it.  At least the PGA has members/pros at facilities that would back their organization where the USGA is mainly volunteers and a pompous ass segment of idealism....Somebody is going to step forward soon...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
I would endorse any set of rules that an assistant PGA pro could enforce without dispute.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jeff W


I've said it before on here but if we still had the equipment we had when I was a youth, I very much doubt I'd still be playing the game. But more to the point, how many more golfers are there now than there was 40/50 years ago and how much of that is down to the additional pleasure and ease of playing the game with more modern equipment. Hard to quantify but I'd suggest a fairly significant number.


And what does it matter now that people change there clubs more often than they once did, that just means more second hand clubs about which offers more chances for people to take up the game. Just a thought.


Niall

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
I suggest that it is time to "turn down the volume" of this "discussion".  The USGA, like most human institutions charged with administering a large activity, has strengths and weaknesses.  Its job is made more difficult because of the varying interests and skill levels of the participants.  Nonetheless, it is fair to evaluate its work.  In doing so, we should keep in mind that, notwithstanding the professional staff, the USGA is governed by volunteers.  Given its history and the time and cost demands of leadership, those leaders are generally drawn from the ranks of private clubs.

Rules.  I concede the rules are complex.  Having worked locally as an official, I have first hand knowledge.  But the complexity comes in large measure from having to deal with the decisions.  All of those come from questions arising out of actual situations that occurred on the course.  It is not surprising that a game played over dozens of acres of irregular ground, replete with obstacles would lead to greater complexity than games played within controlled  and often identical playing fields.  Unless we revert to the simplicity of "tee your ball and don't touch it until after you hole out" complexity will follow.  Even then, there will have to be rules regarding lost balls and the like.  I also note that the USGA and the R&A meet periodically to discuss and amend the rules.  So it is not just the USGA.

Could the Rules be simplified.  Sure.  Are they always applied appropriately.  Probably not.  But if you study them, you will find that they are internally consistent.

Equipment.  I agree that the USGA and R&A failed to act  when they could have to protect the game.  I have no problem with distance qua distance.  My issue is the need to extend courses because of the greater distance which has led to higher costs and longer rounds.  One might ask whether longer courses are really needed but that ship appears to have sailed.  In my view, rules-makers have to decide when a game has "matured" and then they must be careful about rules changes and equipment.   Baseball is my best example.  Prior to the early 1920's, baseball had many of the same rules but played in the "dead ball " era.  For a variety of reasons, the ball was made livelier and the strategy of the game changed.  Other related rules followed such as the elimination of the "spitter" and other trick pitches.  Indeed, the liveliest ball used was probably in the early 1930's.  Since then, baseball rules and equipment have remained remained about the same, larger gloves being the exception.  In the major leagues, aluminum bats have been prohibited and, other than strategic changes, the game and the records are little changed, notwithstanding the same developments in nutrition and conditioning.  I submit that golf missed the chance to declare that the game was "mature" and the explosion in distance resulted.  I also submit that if the USGA had stared Karsten down on the square grooves matter, it might have done more. The  profits made in the sale of "improved" equipment may also have played an important role. But again, that ship has sailed.

Handicaps.  Much debate here but the USGA has been a driving force in creating a unified system.  A real concern has been to discourage sand baggers, hence using the 10 best of 20 scores.  Historically, the R&A faced the same problem by only using competition scores although that may also be explained by the greater prevalence of forms of play in which individual scores are not emphasized.  The USGA, when faced with that decision many years ago, followed the lead of the CDGA in counting all scores.  There are currently discussions between the governing bodies about a world wide handicap system with a target date of 2018.  Do not be surprised if the world adopts the US system with slight modifications.

Turf grass research.   Whether we like the trend of increasing green speeds or not, it is hard to ignore the contributions of the green section in encouraging research that has led to better conditions and the ability to grow grass in difficult climates.  How some clubs use the technology may be questionable, but the overall history of the USGA in this area has been quite good.  This area has not been mentioned in this discussion.

Competition.  If you like the idea of competitive amateur golf, the USGA has been the most significant factor in keeping it alive by sponsoring, administering and officiating at its numerous championships.  Local associations have provided opportunities as well but the USGA has been the leader.

Growth of the game.  This one is hard to judge.  I suspect that much of the ebb and flow in interest has been and will continue to be outside of the control of any agency.  Much is economic.  Rapid growth in players and courses, such as that seen in the mid 1990's until 2008 was fueled by a boom economy.  The fall off post recession is likely related to the economy rather than the administration of the game.  Nonetheless, a greater emphasis on junior programs, minority programs, women's programs, pace of play and the like would be useful and we are seeing some progress there.

War chest.  There has been a fair amount of angst expressed due to the USGA's bank account.  This angst is understandable.  I note that the USGA's development of this fund largely occurred after the Karsten litigation where the USGA was reluctant to go "all the way" because of the cost of litigation and a perceived lack of resources at the time.  They built the war chest so that they could withstand future attacks.  Have they overdone it?  Perhaps but I suspect that is a problem that could be remedied.

On balance, a mixed report card.  No one else has stepped up to offer an alternative.  Surely, no one suggests that the PGA or the PGA Tour would do a better job as stewards of the game.  Perhaps if more people with our views volunteered, we might be able to make improvements.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2016, 03:21:33 PM by SL_Solow »

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Sanity, thy name is Solow.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Sanity, thy name is Solow.

+1

Bruce Katona

  • Karma: +0/-0
SL Solow:

What a logical & well crafted synopsis. Thank you


However, the PGA or The PGA Tour may attempt to step into the USGA's shoes, be it amateur of professional competition given the recent stepping on their own male organs the USGA has done in the past few years.


Mr. Lapper: I was hoping you would opine. Eloquent as usual.


GCA'ers: Can Ran afford to be the ED of the new association governing the US game?   


BK

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Perhaps if more people with our views volunteered, we might be able to make improvements.


Shelly,


Bob Crosby referred me to a contact at the USGA about a suggestion that I had for Junior Golf. Bob thought it was a good idea. I contacted the woman and I never received a response.


Before we pay the "maybe its in the spam folder" game, I put the same email into a general mailbox and they replied right away. The intern had no idea what to do with it, and it died right there. Ok, the USGA is better than trying to contact Google, but the USGA really does not have an interest in hearing ideas from us. I have no skin in Junior golf as my sons play other sports.


How many interviews has Ran done with the USGA in the history of GCA. Has Geoff Shackeford done any? None here, and Ran has or had a brother who worked at the USGA:


http://golfclubatlas.com/feature-interview/


Now if my/your/Ran's name is FOX, Lexus, Rolex.... I am guessing that they would listen and respond. With the ratings that FOX received, something will change:


http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2016/6/20/ratings-2016-us-open-earns-second-lowest-final-round.html
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

JJShanley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Very few major governing bodies for sports seem to enjoy popularity among those who watch said sports.  Those of us who enjoy Association Football likely have little faith in FIFA or UEFA.  (Several national associations would have difficulty running a party in a brewery.)  The NCAA seems trapped between amateurism and serving as a development league.  There are others, one would imagine.


I suppose I'd distinguish between golf and, say the NFL's issue with concussion, in that USGA (and R&A) inaction on particular developments in golf, in that more people play golf than American football.  (Although concussions obviously concern me more than how far the ball flies, etc., even as I do not ever expect to play football in any way, shape, or form.)

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mike,   I have no skin in the game for the USGA; too busy helping on the Chicago regional level.  Nevertheless I suggest you are a little harsh on the current administration regarding architecture.  Putting aside the Rees Jones modifications which appear to be a thing of the past, the USGA has balanced its desire to move the tournament around with a pretty good job of finding good courses going back to Frank Hannigan.  It helped revive interest in Tilly, as well as keeping courses like Shinny, Oakmont and Merion involved.  I had the opportunity to talk to Mike Davis, he is an enthusiast and maybe a candidate for an interview.  Also look at courses that have held the Walker Cup.

As for the Junior golf experience, I clearly cannot comment.  sounds like it could have been handled better.  With all due respect, if every time I received less than a satisfactory experience when I suggested something to a large organization I decided that the organization was worthless, I would have a long list.  That doesn't make it right and they should do better but it may be symptomatic of a problem with organizations of this type.  Easy to identify, hard to fix.

Finally, a comment directed at those who have suggested that the PGA or the Tour step up.  Regarding equipment, do you expect the Tour (consider endorsement dollars) or the Teaching Pros Organization (retail sales and limited sponsorships) to restrain the equipment companies.  If so, I have a lot of great deals to offer you.  Similarly on rules, have you observed how the Tour players are either ignorant of the rules or are interested in trying to find an advantage?  How many local pros can be counted on in this area?  Who will fund the research? 

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Perhaps if more people with our views volunteered, we might be able to make improvements.


Shelly,


Bob Crosby referred me to a contact at the USGA about a suggestion that I had for Junior Golf. Bob thought it was a good idea. I contacted the woman and I never received a response.


Before we pay the "maybe its in the spam folder" game, I put the same email into a general mailbox and they replied right away. The intern had no idea what to do with it, and it died right there. Ok, the USGA is better than trying to contact Google, but the USGA really does not have an interest in hearing ideas from us. I have no skin in Junior golf as my sons play other sports.


How many interviews has Ran done with the USGA in the history of GCA. Has Geoff Shackeford done any? None here, and Ran has or had a brother who worked at the USGA:


http://golfclubatlas.com/feature-interview/


Now if my/your/Ran's name is FOX, Lexus, Rolex.... I am guessing that they would listen and respond. With the ratings that FOX received, something will change:


http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2016/6/20/ratings-2016-us-open-earns-second-lowest-final-round.html


The low ratings - if you were a casual watcher you wouldn't be able to tell who was playing what round and when.
                       -and then you'd have to put up with Joe Buck, carping announcers, and bouncing cameras.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Shelly,
I can appreciate your view of the USGA but I differ in a few things.  First,  you mention "The USGA, like most human institutions charged with administering a large activity"  and you mention "the USGA is governed by volunteers".  I agree it is governed by volunteers but have never agreed that it was charged with administering a large activity when it comes to the game.  They are a self appointed administering body at best.  Of the 16,000 golf courses in the US the USGA has almost no bearing on how they perform or function on a daily basis.  The PGA is a much more likely candidate to help the courses since they are an organization of employees who make a living at these courses and are not volunteers. 

I've dealt with the USGA in various instances over the years and am not impressed.  Actually I would compare it to a large homeowners association.  The golf industry makes it so easy to obtain a power trip.  All one needs to be a golf architect or a writer is a business card and if one has the right contact he can be a magazine rater.  Actually one of the only power trips large than HOA president for many is USGA Major tourney volunteer.

I have no problem with the USGA doing their thing but I would not miss the USGA if they disappeared tomorrow. 
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0

With all due respect, if every time I received less than a satisfactory experience when I suggested something to a large organization I decided that the organization was worthless, I would have a long list.  That doesn't make it right and they should do better but it may be symptomatic of a problem with organizations of this type.  Easy to identify, hard to fix.



You do remember that I have lived in NYC with a developmentally disabled son for 18 years. I think that gives me (and my wife) a Grand Slam of dealing with large organizations. Golf Nerds at the USGA have a lot to learn about bureaucracy after dealing with the NYC Board of Ed for 14 years of Individualized Education Plans that have been implemented in a variety of school settings in NYC, Westchester, and Long Island.


I spoke to David Fay (back when people spoke on phones) when they bought The Russian Tea Room in NYC. I won't go into the details, but there was an arrogance that they had it under control:


http://nypost.com/2003/06/11/russian-tea-room-golf-museum-on-ropes/


I see on TV, have heard from others, and have experienced myself a pattern of arrogance at the USGA. When Ran and/or Mike Young start alt-USGA, I will be the first to sign up :)
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
The USGA is the Common Enemy hereabouts and much of it is justified. The pompous, tone-deaf delivery of their penalty pondering as seen on live television was absolutely devastating.

But I just don't fully understand how technology has ruined the game as some seem to argue. If you don't want to watch Dustin hit a 378 yard drive, turn the channel. Most people want to watch that.

The technological advances are the product of ingenuity and capitalism. And they help virtually every amateur golfer. I hit the ball farther at 62 than I did at 42 and it ain't because of any training regimen.

So I won't whine about the USGA's unwillingness to harness technology. I think that stance has helped the game, helped the golf economy and helped keep the game current. Dialing back technology through rules will lead to lawsuits that the USGA would lose.

Bifurcation is an issue worth discussing, but dialing back the ball and stifling club improvement would be bad for the game.

But Terry, length only matters on a relative basis.  If you and every other Tom Dick and Harry all hit it farther, none of you do!   All you're doing is walking a 7200 yard course instead of a 6400 yard course.  That takes more time, costs more to maintain and of course, costs more to acquire (in the case of new courses).  These are non-relative because it's not a competition to see who can pay more (as opposed to hit it farther).  We all just lose. 

And on top of that, the "gains" (which aren't even really gains if everybody gets them) aren't even equal!  The really long guys get more "gain" than you.  So, actually, you lose, on a relative basis and you lose on any non-relative metrics too!!

I know you know all this.

I know, but it's not simply about length.  The irons that I'm playing are easier to hit, they go further and they stay straighter.  The hybrids are simply amazing.  They are easier to hit and they go higher and straighter.  The driver and fairway woods not only go further, they are more forgiving.  I still like the old Pings, but the newer putters are much better and easier to execute a repeatable stroke.  In sum, it's easier to play better and playing better makes the 4 hours on the course more enjoyable which makes the hour in the 19th Hole better, too.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Pat Burke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Since I am one of those playing for cash game destruction guys...

My six iron clubhead speed when I tested last year was almost 13 miles an hour slower than Keegan Bradley.
My 6 iron flew about 163-165.  Other than stiffness, my irons were basically the same loft and shaft (Nippon Modus)
I believe his were a half an inch longer.

MAny have mentioned that the young guys are better able to take advantage of the new gains in equipment.
WHat do we believe would be an acceptable distance difference given the overall speed differences between Keegan and me?

Given that the professionals are hitting it ridiculous distances, I would argue that I am certainly hitting it further than I feel I should, but I have also made radical changes to my swing to launch the ball at (alleged) optimums.  I hit the ball about 20-25 feet higher than a year ago, with lower spin on the driver, while picking up spin with my irons.  Irons are about the same distance, but driver about 8-10 longer

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0

Bifurcation is an issue worth discussing, but dialing back the ball and stifling club improvement would be bad for the game.


Agreed.


Have the PGA Tour have their own rules, and they can manage the US Open(s).


Let the USGA run Amateur golf and the USGA Amateur tournaments. The USGA should also be the guiding light for State Amateur Associations.
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mike;  You are correct, nobody appointed the USGA.  It was a self-appointed body formed during the early years of golf in this country in order to try to standardize the rules and promote competition.  It filled a vacuum and has lasted to this day.  Of course, nobody appointed the R&A either.  The organizations that amend and administer the rules and run the Open and Amateur championships are not the product of some trade or commercial enterprises.  They are vestiges of the past and rely on volunteers.  I agree that the area where they are most deficient is in helping courses, both public and private, in operations.  Part of this would be to encourage growth of the game and they are trying to do more in recent years.  On the local level in Chicago through the CDGA, we have a series of meetings.  One, for our private clubs, holds a series of break out sessions where individual clubs and experts get together to discuss problems in a variety of areas including finance, grounds and greens, membership etc.  A similar meeting for our public membership and run by our public golf committee focuses on the problems of public fees courses.  I would like the USGA to do more on a national level in this regard.

Again, as noted, I think the organization is far from ideal.  But it does somewhat better than what was stated in this thread and would be difficult to replace.  Thus I think the better path is to work toward improvement.


Tim_Cronin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Shelly,
   I'm ready to support you, Stracks and Lavin on a rump ticket for the next USGA election. It's about time there was a contest. You up for president or VP?
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Niall, I so enjoy a mean-spirited post that ends with "all the best".  IMHO the salutation is an empty gesture. 

I'm starting to remember why I didn't post here for a few years.  Such a lovely environment. 


I thought that Niall's criticism of the opinion piece was quite civil, which does make it, ironically, a more lovely environment.


I'm glad to read your opinion, but did you expect that no one would respond? Did you expect that no one would take issue or umbrage with what you had written?


On the occasion of another post, Russian Tea Room -- I had forgotten that one! Good god, what a story.
Coming in August 2023
~Manakiki
~OSU Scarlet
~OSU Grey
~NCR South
~Springfield
~Columbus
~Lake Forest (OH)
~Sleepy Hollow (OH)

Peter Pallotta

Shel - very fine posts there, and it is hard to argue with your measured, nuanced, informed, and wholly rational stance.  (Admit it: that kind of stance is your speciality, isn't it?  :))

So let me grant that I don't know of a viable alternative to the USGA, and that to "work towards improvement" is the better path forward.  But then let me offer my opinion in this regard, i.e. that the internal process of transformation/ improvement must begin with a genuine and earnest attempt to answer this fundamental question:

Have we at the USGA, much like many other large and long-standing organisms organizations, gotten to the point where our own survival and growth has become our predominate concern, and has the marketing of ourselves (in the service of said growth) begun to inform/influence/dictate everything we do?

I ask that question -- or more accurately, ask them to ask themselves that question -- because it does seem to me that from Mike Davies' overwrought championship set-ups to this latest preening and presumptuous ruling to the recent commissioned report on distance gains/technology that blithely expects us to believe the unbelievable the USGA appears more interested in promoting and protecting itself and in advancing its own organizational interests than in humbly serving the broader interests of the game.     

Peter   

PS - needless to say, the USGA's apparent self-preoccupation is not the fault of the volunteers, but of the paid leadership.   
« Last Edit: June 21, 2016, 08:24:53 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mike Davis (not to be confused with Ray and Dave Davies) does not work/wreak Open setups. If anything, he makes them more playable. If we weren't paying attention during the 1970s and 1980s, US Opens were played through treed alleyways, amid deep-rough sidewalks, with fairway bunkers removed from the fairways, so deep in the rough were they situated.


Davis brought flexibility of setup, driveable par fours, diverse teeing grounds and much more to this national championship. Contrast US Opens at Pinehurst in 1999 and 2005, vs. 2014. Or Oakmont in 1994, 2007 and 2016. Mike Davis does not select the sites in dictatorial fashion. Concerning private clubs, they certainly tell the USGA that certain elements of their course culture must be preserved. In the case of Olympic Club, I suspect that the intrusion of trees and thick rough is something that members want. As for Oakmont, certainly those practitioners of golfing S&M absolutely adore uber-fast greens. In order to be true to its self, Chambers Bay had to play the way it did in 2015.


I can't speak to how Mike Davis manages other aspects of the USGA, but I can voice my support for how he prepares courses for US Opens. I don't know how tied his hands are, but whatever the extent, he does a fine job.
Coming in August 2023
~Manakiki
~OSU Scarlet
~OSU Grey
~NCR South
~Springfield
~Columbus
~Lake Forest (OH)
~Sleepy Hollow (OH)

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0

Have we at the USGA, much like many other large and long-standing organisms organizations, gotten to the point where our own survival and growth has become our predominate concern, and has the marketing of ourselves (in the service of said growth) begun to inform/influence/dictate everything we do?



Peter,


May I insert "Boston College Athletic Department" and/or 3-5 other organizations that I work with and use this quote extensively for the rest of my life?


Absolute genius!!
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Peter Pallotta

 :)
Mike - thanks. Please feel free to use that description as often as you like. For 16 years I worked in a large public sector organization, until I quit a few months ago because I couldn't stand it anymore. It really did feel (and operate) like a living organism that was driven by that one goal - self preservation - and by that one activity, self-promotion.

Ron - we'll have to agree to disagree. It's not just the tactics that MD uses (that are in some ways different from his predecessors) that annoy me; it's that to my mind he puts his own cleverness and constant/uniform goal ahead of the inherent (and differing) architecture of the various great courses that host the Open. Aside from a few outlier scores, and despite (or because of) his driveable fours/diverse teeing grounds and graduated rough etc etc, he manages to make courses as different as Chambers Bay and Merion and Pinehurst and Oakmont play virtually alike.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2016, 07:43:16 PM by Peter Pallotta »

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