[Tommy Williamsen]

I was struck by the discussion of eighteen at NGLA.  I agree that it is an extremely well designed hole that would work anywhere on the course.  I also like to end the round on a par five, especially one that offers the possibility of an eagle or double bogey.  I am dreadfully tired of Pete Dye's cape eighteenth holes.  They have become so commonplace that they are boring.  Recently I have been thinking that eighteen does not have to be a long or difficult hole to be good.  Many last holes in the British Isles are neither long nor difficult.  There is something intriguing and strategically interesting about a short par four finishing hole, like 18 at Inverness or Olympic, or even the much maligned 18th at Cypress Point Club.  Certainly 18 at Inverneses and Olympic have been exciting in determining winners in major events.  What do you think?  What other short par fours do you like as finishing holes?

[tonyt]

The way the inneffective controls on equipment and technology are going, in the future, two of the great short par 4 18th holes will be NGLA and Pebble Beach.

Sorry, I'll be serious now. I haven't been to the following, but I'm curious;

Prairie Dunes?
Interlachen?
Ballybunion?

Does Ballybunion's fairway bunker enhance or detract from the value of the hole? It looks like it could make play a little one dimensional, but I stand to be silenced.

[JDoyle]

Tony,

Ballybunion is one of my favorite courses in the world.  The back nine is very unique and fun to play again and again.  Specifically I love the run from 12, 13, 14, 15 and 16.  Not many courses offer a string of par 3-5-3-3-5.  

The 18th hole has often been cited as a weak finishing hole.  I think the folks that say this are subconsciously bothered by the modern-looking clubhouse.  Normally I prefer an older clubhouse that reminds one of the long history of golf, e.g. Shinnecock, Oakmont and Baltusrol in the States.  However, the Ballybunion clubhouse looks like huge flying transport has landed on the serene Irish landscape.  It's very cool - sorry for the tangent.

As for the the 18th hole - I think the bunker works well.  It gives every player concern off the tee.  More than once I have found my drive in the sand.  The bunker reminds me of an enormous wave crashing on the shore only three hundred yards away.  The truth is that the bunker is only one of the problems on the hole.  The second shot is where the real trouble is.  Most players are able to steer away from the bunker off the tee, but the second shot leaves the player no forgiving landing area.  The green is narrow and plays uphill.  The conditions are often windy and any ball that catches too much air is likely to land in the green-side gorse.

[A_Clay_Man]

I wonder when the desire to create an explosive climax came about?

To me, the awesomness of an 18th hole isn't neccasarily neccesary and it all depends on the precceding holes. Take Bethpage for an example of where the strength of the precceding holes makes the 18th seems anti-climatic, same at CPC.

Does a really strong finnishing hole imply some inherent weakness in some of those holes that preceed it in an attempt to over-compensate?

[Scott_Burroughs]

Here ya go, Bill:  

[Scott_Burroughs]

more:

     

[Tim_Weiman]

Tony T:

In all the years of playing Ballybunion, I've really only played #18 one way: a four or five wood to the right and usually short of the big bunker. The changes Tom Watson made to this hole only reinforced this approach.

However, I have friends in Ballybunion who play the course on a regular basis and do vary their strategy far more. Depending on wind conditions, they sometimes attempt to put their tee shot past the bunker and set up a much easier little pitch to the green.

I agree with JDoyle that it is really the second shot where the trouble is faced. Of course, the blindness has a lot to do with it, but it is also worth noting that certain misses can result in very tricky recovery shots, e.g., short left (whether in the pot bunker or not).

So, is it one dimensional? I'd say it depends on your risk tolerance. You do get a big reward by successfully taking the more aggressive tee shot, but you can be left with a real awkward shot if you miss. I prefer the conservative approach, especially with the change Watson made (and almost no visitors even notice).

[Jim_H]

In my opinion, too many people when they discuss golf courses and golf holes focus on them from a medal play standpoint.  In fact, I would guess that an enormous percentage of golf rounds are played as match play.  Therefore, I like 18th holes that are a great risk-reward so as to make match play (presses and all) more exciting.  I guess that's why I've never been critical of the 18th at Cypress--not a great golf hole probably, but fun for match play.

[SPDB]

18 @ Philly Cricket. I was thinking last night how good a finishing hole this is. requires an exacting shot to a terrifying green. The perfect demand on the final hole.

[larry_munger]

In the good old days, many matches had ended before the 18th hole.

[ian]

Seminole's 18th definately has birdie/triple written all over it. The tee shot is fairly sedate, but the approach is very demanding with the extremely deep right bunker, the steeply cross-sloped green and the dunes to the left tight to the green. The fact that the green is so elevated from the fairway puts a premium on the shot and on trying to be aggressive of the tee (which then can easily get you in trouble).

Capilano's par 5 18th is a very fine finisher too.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ian Andrew,

I don't mean to take issue with you on # 18 at Seminole, but sedate isn't the word I would use unless I was sedated.

The drive requires a decision which dramatically affects the play of the hole.  How much do you feel you can bite off ?
The execution of the short cut drive requires balls, and great execution.  A pull left is dead.  A mis-hit is dead, a buzz right is almost dead. And, the prevailing wind off the ocean also factors into your decision, and affects your play and the balls flight.  Tee shots hit more conservatively to the right face a longer more difficult shot into the green.

This is a 3-wood or wedge depending on the WIND, your willingness to gamble, and your ability to execute.

A tense shot, especially if something is riding on the hole.

Perhaps you meant the original 18th hole.    

[CHrisB]

The driveable 18th at North Berwick (West)--to the plateau green with clubhouse behind and car park right--is a super fun short finishing hole!

[mike_beene]

Let's not forget what the Valley of Sin does to a seemingly plain hole.If it were a bunker it wouldn't be nearly as interesting.

[Hillsideb52]

A second for the 18th at Philly Cricket.  Great 18th hole.

18 @ Philly Cricket. I was thinking last night how good a finishing hole this is. requires an exacting shot to a terrifying green. The perfect demand on the final hole.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I love Ballybunion.  I think, with Royal Dornoch and Royal County Down, my most favorite golf course in the British isles.
I must say, however, that #18 was a dissapointing finish.  My favorite hole is a great short par four.  Unfortunately I think 18 at Ballybunion falls short.  I  have not played North Berwick, so my education is incomplete, but I can't think of any other great short par fours as finishing holes than Olympic and Inverness that I mentioned at the beginning of this thread.  There must be more!
By the way I apologize for mistyping the heading on the thread!

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