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Thomas Dai

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Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #250 on: August 05, 2017, 07:58:02 AM »
I think what Ally is getting at is that modern courses have very smooth fairway which are unnatural. Natural land has lots of random micro-movement in it and it is something that no GCA in the last 50 years has really got right.


When chatting with a local member at Ballyliffin I was told "The Old course was created by one man with a mower. The Glashedy course was built using big machines". And you can really see the difference.
Atb

Steve Salmen

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Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #251 on: August 05, 2017, 08:47:40 AM »
Sand Hills is regarded as C&C's best work and on sandy soil. Are the fairways there flat? If so, did they flatten them? If they didn't flatten fairways on an American course, can anyone give a reason why they would come to Scotland and do so?

Jud_T

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Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #252 on: August 05, 2017, 09:12:04 AM »
Maybe instead we can get the Old Tom actor from the commercials, give him 18 sticks and a fifth of scotch, then let the sheep loose...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #253 on: August 05, 2017, 10:52:19 AM »
It's not about flattening fairways - they won't do that. Although they might strip the entire area and put a little bit of their own expert shape in to them, along with wide free-form fairways, a significant number of large blow-out style bunkers and an emphasis on maximising visual drama.


In this respect, it may resemble Castle Stuart more than Royal Dornoch.


This is not the wrong option. I'm not saying that. But I'll be interested - like Jon - on how much they tone it down.

Thomas Dai

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Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #254 on: August 05, 2017, 12:06:17 PM »
Although the website isn't apparently affiliated to the project, the website highlighted by David in his opening is worth looking at or revisiting for the photos of the area in the gallery section - https://www.coullinksgolf.com/


In addition, if you look at Streetcam you can see what the nearby roads mentioned above are presently actually like and also get an inkling of the what the location and landscape involved are like -https://www.instantstreetview.com/@57.918579,-4.010837,14z,0t


Irrespective of golf, a delightful part of the world for sure.


Atb
« Last Edit: August 05, 2017, 12:08:02 PM by Thomas Dai »

Ian Mackenzie

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Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #255 on: August 08, 2017, 11:13:22 AM »
Some interesting perspectives from those at Skibo, RDGC, Tain, Brora and Golspie:


http://www.northern-times.co.uk/News/Clubs-backing-drive-for-new-championship-course-12052016.htm




Latest article says that planning applications will be submitted shortly:


http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/content/planning-application-for-coul-links-set-to-be-submitted-in-coming-weeks




Having walked the property extensively, I believe that total acreage is ~600 yet total proposed turf coverage will be ~50.


Preliminary routing can be seen here: http://www.coullinks.com/traffic.html
Click on map to see it in full.





Wayne_Kozun

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Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #256 on: August 08, 2017, 11:45:56 AM »
Interesting, but that first article is now 15 months old and contains a bit of hyperbole, such as "There is nowhere else in the UK that has as many extraordinary links golf courses as closely situated as East Sutherland." - no offence to the Northern courses, but for lots of Links courses in close proximity you have East Lothian and Fife.  How many excellent links courses are within five miles of Gullane hill?

Niall C

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Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #257 on: August 08, 2017, 11:49:08 AM »
Interesting, but that first article is now 15 months old and contains a bit of hyperbole, such as "There is nowhere else in the UK that has as many extraordinary links golf courses as closely situated as East Sutherland." - no offence to the Northern courses, but for lots of Links courses in close proximity you have East Lothian Ayrshire and Fife.  How many excellent links courses are within five miles of Gullane hill?


Once again Wayne, I've had to fix your typo.  ;)


Niall

Ian Mackenzie

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Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #258 on: August 08, 2017, 11:52:42 AM »
Interesting, but that first article is now 15 months old and contains a bit of hyperbole, such as "There is nowhere else in the UK that has as many extraordinary links golf courses as closely situated as East Sutherland." - no offence to the Northern courses, but for lots of Links courses in close proximity you have East Lothian and Fife.  How many excellent links courses are within five miles of Gullane hill?


You miss the point of the article, Wayne, and the date is unimportant.
The point is to show that local courses are supportive of Coul Links and welcome it's prospects.


They underscore how another world-class venue may serve to benefit their courses as well.
(This had been discussed and debated recently here.)

Jon Wiggett

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Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #259 on: August 08, 2017, 04:11:04 PM »
Interesting initial routing as it appears to have a loop of 8 and a loop of 10.

Thomas Dai

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Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #260 on: August 09, 2017, 02:33:59 PM »
Old farm and buildings as the Clubhouse etc later replaced by new-build.
Access road coming from the Dornoch side and across farmland etc which makes me wonder about ownership and space for another course.
Atb

Ian Mackenzie

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Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #261 on: August 09, 2017, 02:51:07 PM »
Old farm and buildings as the Clubhouse etc later replaced by new-build.
Access road coming from the Dornoch side and across farmland etc which makes me wonder about ownership and space for another course.
Atb


There is ample acreage for another course, but developers have assured one and all that there will be one course only with NO chance for homes or hotels.


The only thing to be built west of the access road will be the practice area.

Sean_A

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Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #262 on: August 10, 2017, 04:03:23 AM »
Old farm and buildings as the Clubhouse etc later replaced by new-build.
Access road coming from the Dornoch side and across farmland etc which makes me wonder about ownership and space for another course.
Atb


There is ample acreage for another course, but developers have assured one and all that there will be one course only with NO chance for homes or hotels.


The only thing to be built west of the access road will be the practice area.

Developers assurances mean nothing.  Things change...councils change, officers change, regulations change, owners change....Once a door is open there is no telling when it will be shut.  I don't know if this is good or bad in terms of this project...just sayin'.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2023: Cardigan, St David's City, Panmure, Kinghorn, Harrogate, Hinckley, Robin Hood, Sandiway & Ladybank

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #263 on: August 10, 2017, 04:11:36 AM »
Old farm and buildings as the Clubhouse etc later replaced by new-build.
Access road coming from the Dornoch side and across farmland etc which makes me wonder about ownership and space for another course.
Atb
There is ample acreage for another course, but developers have assured one and all that there will be one course only with NO chance for homes or hotels.
The only thing to be built west of the access road will be the practice area.
Developers assurances mean nothing.  Things change...councils change, officers change, regulations change, owners change....Once a door is open there is no telling when it will be shut.  I don't know if this is good or bad in terms of this project...just sayin'.
Ciao


Sadly I go along with this. Assurances often/usually/normally/always don't mean much, especially in the longer term and when £, ego's etc are involved.
Atb

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #264 on: August 10, 2017, 08:27:06 AM »
Old farm and buildings as the Clubhouse etc later replaced by new-build.
Access road coming from the Dornoch side and across farmland etc which makes me wonder about ownership and space for another course.
Atb


There is ample acreage for another course, but developers have assured one and all that there will be one course only with NO chance for homes or hotels.


The only thing to be built west of the access road will be the practice area.

Developers assurances mean nothing.  Things change...councils change, officers change, regulations change, owners change....Once a door is open there is no telling when it will be shut.  I don't know if this is good or bad in terms of this project...just sayin'.

Ciao


While I do appreciate the ample dose of cynicism, it is sorely misplaced here and unfounded. While that could be said of many developers, it is hardly the case here. Sean, you know Keiser's other properties, right? He is not a "carpet bagger".


If the town does not want the course, he will not build it and will walk away to focus on other projects.


Implying doubt in their intentions is natural, I agree, but with so many projects to reference, the track record is well established.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #265 on: August 10, 2017, 10:17:42 AM »
I just checked out the routing. I'm guessing the southern loop is the back nine with a par-3 10th?


Looks like a neat project. I like that its only going to be 18 holes on a 600 acre site. That leaves quite a bit for preservation, as compared to jamming 2 (or 3?) courses into the same amount of land.


If it turns out to be a great design, you would have to imagine Dornoch would see a big influx of additional visitors.
H.P.S.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #266 on: August 10, 2017, 12:02:36 PM »
Sean/Dai,
 
Plans change and plans evolve, much the same as golf courses. While you get developers who prove themselves untrustworthy and speak with forked tongue (step forward Mr Trump) the majority act in a straight forward and above board fashion. They submit a planning application to the relevant authority which decides the application in terms of a legal framework that involves public consultation.
 
In approving an application they can, and more often than not, do impose conditions on the approval. It is up to the authority to ensure that those conditions are complied with. Should the developer subsequently wish to change his plans or add to them then they have to go through the same process. A fairly democratic process I think.
 
Where it all goes wrong is where you momentarily get a couple of very large egos (Trump and Salmond) aligning and then the system gets over ridden like in some third world country. I donít know about Mike Keiser or Todd Warnock to compare them to Trump but I very much doubt any Scottish Ministers will act as Salmond did given the outcome at Balmedie.
 
Thatís just my personal view.
 
Niall

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #267 on: August 10, 2017, 01:53:20 PM »
Ian and Niall,
All that I have heard and read about the intended developers, their track record, etc etc, indicates integrity and an approach that gives confidence.
What happens down the line though, perhaps many, many years down the line is where the cynicism/caution is. Circumstances, ownership, £, personalities can/will change over time. Contracts, agreements etc need to be tightly written or else potentially one day.........
Atb

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #268 on: August 10, 2017, 05:51:52 PM »
Old farm and buildings as the Clubhouse etc later replaced by new-build.
Access road coming from the Dornoch side and across farmland etc which makes me wonder about ownership and space for another course.
Atb


There is ample acreage for another course, but developers have assured one and all that there will be one course only with NO chance for homes or hotels.


The only thing to be built west of the access road will be the practice area.

Developers assurances mean nothing.  Things change...councils change, officers change, regulations change, owners change....Once a door is open there is no telling when it will be shut.  I don't know if this is good or bad in terms of this project...just sayin'.

Ciao


While I do appreciate the ample dose of cynicism, it is sorely misplaced here and unfounded. While that could be said of many developers, it is hardly the case here. Sean, you know Keiser's other properties, right? He is not a "carpet bagger".


If the town does not want the course, he will not build it and will walk away to focus on other projects.


Implying doubt in their intentions is natural, I agree, but with so many projects to reference, the track record is well established.

Ian

Its not about Keiser's integrity.  Its about there being no such thing as ever or never where business is concerned. 

Ciao
« Last Edit: August 20, 2017, 08:17:45 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2023: Cardigan, St David's City, Panmure, Kinghorn, Harrogate, Hinckley, Robin Hood, Sandiway & Ladybank

Terry Lavin

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Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #269 on: August 10, 2017, 08:12:16 PM »
Keiser's "project" will leave a very light "footprint". Trust me.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Rich Goodale

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Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #270 on: August 14, 2017, 08:30:14 PM »
I'm recently back from 2 weeks in Dornoch, and I can assure readers of this thread that Coull Links is well below the radar of most locals and long-term visiting golfers such as me.


Having walked the land, and being familiar with a number of Coore & Crenshaw courses I have no doubt that a great course can be built there, but do have doubts that it will be financially feasible, unless significant infrastructure is built in and between Dornoch and Embo (where CL will be situated).  Dornoch is overwhelmed by visitors in the high season, and most of these visitors stay elsewhere because accommodation and watering holes are very limited (particularly at the high end, where CL visitors will want to frequent).  Embo is a very small village with one local shop and a large caravan park (Grannie's Heilan Hame).  I very much doubt that high-end golfing tourists will want to stay there--unless a Bandon-like reservation is built near CL.  But, of course, posts above assure us that these facilities will not be built.

Even if they could be built, would destination visitors spread much lucre over the likes of Tain, Brora and Golspie?  I doubt it, for many reasons (about which I will happily write, if anyone cares to listen).

« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 08:38:36 PM by Rich Goodale »
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi


Niall C

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Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #273 on: August 16, 2017, 08:17:17 AM »
Keiser's "project" will leave a very light "footprint". Trust me.

Terry

No offence, when someone says trust me that's when I start worrying  ;D

Also, a very light footprint in American terms won't be the same as in the UK. In golf development terms, projects over here tend to be much more modest than they are in the US, both in terms of the amount of earth shifted and the supporting "infrastructure" such as clubhouses etc.

Rich - I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the knock on effect of this proposed development.

Niall

Rich Goodale

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Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #274 on: August 16, 2017, 11:28:25 AM »

Rich - I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the knock on effect of this proposed development.

Niall


Niall--I think I expressed my thoughts well enough above.  I've been to Bandon and been to Mullen, and there has been little sustainable knock on "development" I can see at either place.  Same with Castle Stuart.   Same with Ballyliffin.  Same with etc. etc. etc.


Dornoch has had some development recently, due primarily to it's climb in the rankings but also from the effect of Skibo and it's gazillionaire clientele, and the fact that the place used to "be a contender" 100 years ago.  It also still has charm--which most of the other seaside towns in Sutherland do not have, any more than Mullen and Bandon and Inverness.


Cultural terraforming just doesn't work in the golf business these days.


Rich
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

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