[Adam Lawrence]

What's more putting a golf course on links land might be better for the bio-diversity of the site than leaving it to be grazed. It's the sort of thing someone like Mike Wood would be able to give chapter and verse about I'm sure.

I was at Strandhill in Ireland last week, where, along with architect Ally McIntosh of this parish, the club is hoping to build two new holes in the raw dunes between the present course and the water. Interestingly, course manager Jason Kelly told me that the local environmental management types had done a survey of biodiversity on the site, and concluded that there were a lot more species in the area maintained as golf course than there were in the bare dunes.

[Sean_A]

What's more putting a golf course on links land might be better for the bio-diversity of the site than leaving it to be grazed. It's the sort of thing someone like Mike Wood would be able to give chapter and verse about I'm sure.

I was at Strandhill in Ireland last week, where, along with architect Ally McIntosh of this parish, the club is hoping to build two new holes in the raw dunes between the present course and the water. Interestingly, course manager Jason Kelly told me that the local environmental management types had done a survey of biodiversity on the site, and concluded that there were a lot more species in the area maintained as golf course than there were in the bare dunes.

Adam

Did the course manager cite any reasons as to why this is the case?

Ciao

[Adam Lawrence]

Not to me.

[Ally Mcintosh]

What's more putting a golf course on links land might be better for the bio-diversity of the site than leaving it to be grazed. It's the sort of thing someone like Mike Wood would be able to give chapter and verse about I'm sure.

I was at Strandhill in Ireland last week, where, along with architect Ally McIntosh of this parish, the club is hoping to build two new holes in the raw dunes between the present course and the water. Interestingly, course manager Jason Kelly told me that the local environmental management types had done a survey of biodiversity on the site, and concluded that there were a lot more species in the area maintained as golf course than there were in the bare dunes.

Adam


Do the course manager cite any reasons as to why this is the case?


Ciao

I haven't seen the most recent survey other than Jason giving me the highlights a couple of weeks ago. What I do know is that when I put the plan together that involved building two new holes on the south west plateau, I did a lot of research in to what I thought was the best golfing option most likely to receive planning approval. I used a previous 2004 environmental report that indicated the high area was species poor, predominantly marram with no great diversity in flora or fauna such as would be found in the dune slacks further behind. It therefore doesn't surprise me that they have more wildlife on the lower areas where the course is currently situated. Certainly in our last meeting with National Parks & Wildlife, that was the impression they also gave.

[Niall C]

Kris


I've no idea about Ian's involvement with the project if any. I'll leave him to answer the question if he wishes but irrespective of whether he is or not, I don't think there is any doubt that if the project went ahead that it would add to the economy of the area which I think was the main point that Ian was making. The question is whether that benefit is worth the downside or at least the perceived downside, which perhaps can be summed up by Ken's post (which as Ken admits is perhaps selfish, and I say that as someone who shares his concerns) about how things will change at existing clubs including RDGC, and your principle concern (assuming I read you correctly) which seems to be the development of a environmentally sensitive area.


Personally I suspect you might be overstating the environmental impact of any course development (that of course depends on how they go about the development ie. Balmedie style or Mach Dunes style) but haven't been over the land or read any environmental assessments.


Niall

[Kris Shreiner]

Niall,
There is no question that economic gain would be made with a world class links offering up in Dornoch. I NEVER said I was against any course going in up that way.
NOT that site has been my positon. For a multitude of reasons.
Ian reached out to me and shed light on his position, and his take.
Sadly, as Pete correctly pointed out, this IS a very important topic.
It gets personal some time. My intent is always to try to stay on the subject matter at hand. Knowing to what audience we are speaking to has validity.
Some folks are more private than others. I respect that. But when you swing from this tree house, if we are not candid, forthright or straight, at the outset, on who we are, and where our perspective comes from...there seems to be a hollowness there.
I've said many times that I believe this is the most stimulating portal in all of golf. Discussion on here, at it's best, has no equal.
Feathers get ruffled. It sometimes gets  heated. But so long as the content is thought-provoking, and the discourse civil, it's a winner...warts and all.
I've given my views. Others are entitled to theirs. If a go ahead is given on THAT Embo tract, it will be in the hands of as good a group of land stewards as we have in the game.
There is no questioning the caliber of that team.

Cheers,
Kris

[Jason Topp]

I do not have any position on this particular issue but appreciate having an opponent speak up here. 

The issues raised in this thread are a critical component of almost any golf course development and those interested in GCA should give them serious consideration.     

[MClutterbuck]

It was a reference to your point that RDGC, and indeed, any number of other links courses were developed on similar sites to Embro. What's more putting a golf course on links land might be better for the bio-diversity of the site than leaving it to be grazed. It's the sort of thing someone like Mike Wood would be able to give chapter and verse about I'm sure.


Niall

Always amazes me how much easier it is to throw cows into a wetland than place a golf course around it... particularly if you are a local farmer.

It further amazes me how easy it is for third parties to place burdens on owners that go above and beyond the law and prior to facts being established...  would love to see the same passion to fundraise, buy and protect the land for posterity.

[Mike Hendren]

First, a personal thanks to David and Kris.   I'm heading to the Highlands in four weeks and am fascinated by this thread.    Since my first round will be at Durness I thought this article about its inception was interesting and might cast a different light on the Embo issue.

http://new.durness.org/?page_id=1034

Down South the provincial approach is to dismiss outsiders with a curt observation that "he ain't from around here."   While I value the comments and connections of both David and Kris, it's one thing to own property and visit frequent or marry well into the son-in-law program - it's quite another to "be from around here"  and have the soil embedded in your soul.  My guess is the locals will figure this thing out.   I'm guessing to them it's not about whether it's Keiser or Trump.   While one of those two might be better intentioned or more popular on this site I'm reminded that he does in fact charge full retail.   Would he do it for sport or love?  I sure hope so. 

I'm beyond excited about driving the NC500 with Kathie next month.  My expectation?  I will see some stunning landscapes and meet some wonderful people who today can't fathom they need another golf course in the area.  I suspect golf in Scotland is a matter of the heart (but again, how should I know?) - but not of the head or hip pocket.  Maybe they need another Durness or two (don't we all?).  Another Castle Stuart or Royal Dornoch?  Perhaps. Perhaps not.

Regardless I can't wait.  I read North to the Links of Dornoch 45 years ago at the age of 13.  It's been a long time coming.

Respectfully,

Mike

[Tom_Doak]

Since my first round will be at Durness I thought this article about its inception was interesting and might cast a different light on the Embo issue.

As a point of interest, years ago, Mr. Keiser was VERY interested in the idea of building a new 18 holes in the big dunes beyond Durness.  He did not think it had too much prospect of a commercial return, so everything was to be done for a minimal investment ... he just thought the dunes were beautiful, and a big course would convince more people to visit that remote corner of Scotland.


Bill Coore convinced Mike that the course couldn't be built for the modest budget that he envisioned, and he eventually dropped the idea.

[Dave McCollum]

I’ve tried three times to post a comment because I’ve spent 27 years involved in environmental and land use issues, specifically related to golf and agriculture.  I’ve failed each time to come up something that has not already been said, in one way or another, on both sides of this discussion.  No dog in the fight, I’ll just read with interest and shut up.  Thanks for letting me take myself off the hook.  These discussions can get complicated and do damage to passionate beliefs.  I have enough scar tissue already.

[Kris Shreiner]

Michael,
You will love Durness! Another absolute charmer up that way. It's a winding, but glorious trek from Dornoch across some of the wildest and varied ground I've seen anywhere.
As Tom alluded to, there is some stunning coastline in that immediate area around Durness.
I'll always remenber the day I made that ride over there, as we were ambling along a VERY rural country road, but not single track, we rounded a bend and came apon a cluster of land rovers. It was late August if I recall, and witnessed an unforgettable scene. An entire bird hunting party was emptying out of the vehicles and forming up to begin the hunt.
The array of magnificent dogs, some beautiful firearms and classic hunting attires worn by the group was a picture from another era... only it wasn't!
That is the type of timeless moment that that region of Scotland STILL delivers. The main reason is because much of that area is locked up in the hands of folks NOT interested in growth, progress and all that goes with it.
As you will see, various crofts (farm or grazing) , many estate lands, moors etc. knit together to maintain a landscape that still has its rugged natural beauty and  integrity.
The remoteness of it has insulated it from "development."
So far!
Therein lies the inherent danger of blowing up a village like Dornoch into some bustling "growth" community. No one expects things to remain the same forever. That's a given.
Golf, on it's own, has one of the lightest footprints possible, in the RIGHT places, to provide economic opportunity to a community.
 That's been going on up there, and loads of other places, worldwide, since the early days of the railroad.
Let me ask others that have been to them, does the golfing "hub" that is Nairn feel like Dornoch? Does any other golfing in Scotland have the sense of Dornoch?
Where things become problematic is the
" expansion" that is sure to follow when something becomes a focused, designated "hub" for something.
The local population, in the end, USUALLY  holds what determination of their community will look like.
That said,, outside influence often has a way of
 " convincing" decision makers at the local level to embark on things that end up changing permanently, and often not for the better, what gave the place it's special qualities.
When you layer in governmental agencies that need to justify their existence by " fostering" growth and economic initiatives, that only adds to the haste in generating an opportunity to tout. 
Economic gain alone is not enough reason to approve something, especially in the wrong place,  if it ends up ruining what gave a community it's defining qualities.
Dornoch has enjoyed a certain vibe, a mystique if you will, that has "entranced" golfers, AND non-golfers to a certain degree, since the 1800's.
It HAS been the small bucolic scale, and intertwined fabric of that village, which provided the special and unique flavor it holds. Lose that, and it loses what separates it from most other places.
 Sometimes adding something takes away from the overall presenation. It could be the BEST ingredient in the world. But it changes what made the recipe so good... that which gave the dish it's superb taste.
I saw significant things change during the years I visited regularly, particularly  the allowing of housing to be placed without regard to the sense of arrival, that began to alter the formerly quaint feel coming up the road into the village from the A-9. I'm sure it's worse now.
Dornoch is not unlike countless other rural places, worldwide, that wrestle with trying to create economic vitality, yet not lose what they have. I so hope and pray they get it right.
My first trip to Scotland was as a Pebble Beach caddie, on an epic trip in which we played  the St. Andrew's caddies in an awesome competition of fellowship and comraderie.
I went up to Dornoch afterward, with two fellow caddies, after reading how amazing the golfing experience AND town was.
What I found there was what Mike Keiser and everybody else found there. It was THAT experience which propelled his vision.
 THAT Dornoch was EVERYTHING I had read about!
Will those that go there in the future be able to say the same thing?

Enjoy your trip Michael, while it's still there.

Cheers,
Kris




.

[Niall C]

It was a reference to your point that RDGC, and indeed, any number of other links courses were developed on similar sites to Embro. What's more putting a golf course on links land might be better for the bio-diversity of the site than leaving it to be grazed. It's the sort of thing someone like Mike Wood would be able to give chapter and verse about I'm sure.


Niall

Always amazes me how much easier it is to throw cows into a wetland than place a golf course around it... particularly if you are a local farmer.

Amazed ! really ? Do you not know what farmers do then ?

It further amazes me how easy it is for third parties to place burdens on owners that go above and beyond the law and prior to facts being established... Now you've really got me puzzled. What third parties, and what exactly are they doing outwith the law ? And further more, how are they getting away with it. The last time I looked we were reasonably good in this country at upholding the law, maybe not perfect but pretty good all the same. would love to see the same passion to fundraise, buy and protect the land for posterity. That sounds like you are reducing the issue to who has the most money. In this country interested parties can have a say through the planning process as to how land is used. That at least allows for the public interest to be considered which to my way of thinking is better than deciding the matter purely by who has the deepest pockets.

Niall

[MClutterbuck]

It was a reference to your point that RDGC, and indeed, any number of other links courses were developed on similar sites to Embro. What's more putting a golf course on links land might be better for the bio-diversity of the site than leaving it to be grazed. It's the sort of thing someone like Mike Wood would be able to give chapter and verse about I'm sure.


Niall

Always amazes me how much easier it is to throw cows into a wetland than place a golf course around it... particularly if you are a local farmer.

Amazed ! really ? Do you not know what farmers do then ?

It further amazes me how easy it is for third parties to place burdens on owners that go above and beyond the law and prior to facts being established... Now you've really got me puzzled. What third parties, and what exactly are they doing outwith the law ? And further more, how are they getting away with it. The last time I looked we were reasonably good in this country at upholding the law, maybe not perfect but pretty good all the same. would love to see the same passion to fundraise, buy and protect the land for posterity. That sounds like you are reducing the issue to who has the most money. In this country interested parties can have a say through the planning process as to how land is used. That at least allows for the public interest to be considered which to my way of thinking is better than deciding the matter purely by who has the deepest pockets.

Niall

I know what cows do to wetlands. I know a golf course intelligently planned around a wetland is better than farming cows in the wetland. I know farmers get away with this more than a golf course developer.


With respect to my comments about the law. I am sure Scotland has good laws protecting land and establishing appropriate processes. I repeatedly see people, including on this thread, trying to place burdens on the land owner prior to facts being established in a fair process that also considers the ownership rights.


I am not reducing the issue to money. If land is important for public interest, either the government or charities can buy it from the owner at a fair price. I would like to see this effort used more than the political process trying to stop initiatives unfairly and forcing the owner to do other things, sometimes less visible but worse for the land environmentally. Two examples of this: farming and social housing.

[Kris Shreiner]

Comparing cow grazing habits impact on THAT site,  to the level of disturbance trying to shoehorn a links golf course there would produce, is quite a stretch.
Cows, in the main  will: degrade some of the vegetation, rut the ground along their travel routes, and leave urine and fecal matter that the area wouldn't normally have.
While none of those things is good, they ARE consistent with the traditional use of that neighboring land.
Cows also AVOID large portions of  certain ground found there because there is little to their liking.
Wildlife and livestock, though sometimes conflicting within a habitat, typically adapt to coexist rather well. They have had centuries to accomplish that.

Square that against : construction equipment, their noise, significant earthmoving disturbance and alteration of the landscape, introduction of irrigation, ongoing course maintainence impacts,
with MAJOR increases in human AND vehicular traffic for what has long  been a QUIET, rather isolated sanctuary for birdlife and other estuary denizens.
The injected golf land use, while certainly having agrarian elements, will have RADICALLY different impacts on that site.

The fact bird studies are being undertaken should give ample evidence it isn't a simple farm wetland puddle  or beach area site.

As to " burdening " the land owner, when you are significantly changing the land use of a site, the burden is often on them to prove it's a reponsible change and use. This is ESPECIALLY true of areas with proximity  to an estuary, one of this planet's most important and unique ecosystems.
The value of an estuary area is basically a normal wetland situation cubed!!!!

Birdlife migrations and numbers cycle up and down. How can ONE year of study on THAT site accurately reflect what really goes on there over time? It can't.
 How can the true impact on that estuary area, both short and longterm, of a new golf course on the birdlife, and other site inhabitants be determined when it hasn't ever even been there. It can't.
That's why the "process" is bogus.
Does any honest appraisal of what went on at Balmedie not confirm that ANYTHING can be justified.The science was irrelevant.

Remember, the initial local vote was NO.
The Scottish higher ups stepped in and parted the dunes. Big money spoke, and the snake oil did the rest.

It doesn't matter the quality or caliber of those leading the proposed development.
EVEN if they are the BEST in the world.
What matters is the depth and integrity of the analysis. Then, once that has been throughly examined, a RESPONSIBLE decision must be rendered; not  subverted or twisted to accommodate the " economic benefits and jobs" mantra that
DOMINATES the mindsets of government and business folks.
Again, there can be NO sustained economic health WITHOUT environmental health.

If there is never a NO answer, and there rarely is, there is only one end game. A sick, dying planet.
There are some government programs,  and numerous  private organizations, worldwide, that constantly are committing money, time and personal effort to preserve sites like the one in Embo.
Until golf was recently proposed
for that Coul Farm site, it WAS being preserved. As a coastal estuary buffer to the farmland and other ground inland.

Time will tell what road the"process" takes.

Cheers,
Kris

[Kris Shreiner]

It struck me, when reflecting on where else in Scotland a somewhat similar situation might exist already.....it does, at Brora, not a half hour up the A-9!
That area is far more open in nature than the Embo site though. The Artic Tern, the club logo,  breeds  on edges of play by the course thete. Certain species, both birds, and other wildlife,  can  adapt to live their lives on an altered topography.
But MANY can not.
A quick check of the Brora birdlife website reveals an array of birds that frequent the area around there.
Cows and sheep are rotated through the combined farmland\ golf turf during the year.
That is probably the best representation of what an Embo site,  AFTER a century of healing... MIGHT look like.
I love Brora, and everything about it. That course is about a half an hour up the coast from Dornoch.

And that's the point! I don't know the exact waterway dispersion along that coastline, but I bet that is the next  significant, large river/ stream confluence with the sea up from the Embo estuary.

Heavy human traffic is a constant up in Brora. You can be SURE that certain species willl have their behavior and ability to function SEVERELY disrupted, if not changed PERMENANTLY with the introduction of a new golf course on that Embo site.
Walk the Embo site,  and then walk the Brora golf course. Then try to tell someone with a straight face that they are both about the same.
It isn't even close between the two in grandeur OR diversity!
What's the mandate...slam a links course in at any estuary site possible because we can?
There iare ALREADY two golf courses a few miles from the proposed Embo site.
Where does it end? Don't the other creatures on the planet deserve some places to just exist in peace and remain as they are.
Especially areas MOST critical to reproductive survival and early development of those species.
Estuary sites such as THAT in  Embo  provide the nurseries for critters of the land, air and water...BOTH fresh and salt.

That is why you don't build there.

But I know,  the " retail golfer " and that almighty economic gain comes first.

Cheers,
Kris

[jeffwarne]

What amazes me is that a "retail" golfer needs a new modern course addition as an incentive to visit the area (or for that mattervirtually ANY partof the UK and Ireland for golf.)
Maybe we just need less retail golfers.....

[MClutterbuck]

Kris, the cow example in a wetland example might have nothing to do with this specific site that I do not know at all. With a wetland, two dozen cows will be far worse than everything that happens while building and maintaining a sensible 18 hole golf course. The cows WILL severely impact the wetland, if not outright kill all valuable species. The well maintained golf course will showcase the wetland, preserve it and allow it to thrive. Yet in many places I know, cows get placed there without any questioning or interference from public or government while the golf course gets tremendous bad publicity and banned. I am just saying, a fair process should be followed and I am all for protecting the environment, and not only today, Earth Day.

[Kris Shreiner]

Happy Earth Day! How appropriate. I agree that roaming cows can wreck havoc on a wetland.
Fair process needs to apply to the wildlife inhabitants as well. And THAT often gets compromised for the reasons outlined previously.

I'll share a powerful thought I just heard today, and let the tree house chew on it.

"The whole non-human world is singing, but many of us are not listening."

I know this. If one of the most responsible voices in the game takes a step back, that bold statement would have FAR more benefit for golf, and the non-golfing population's view of us as WISE citizens of the world, than ANYTHING that Embo site could deliver.

Cheers,
A listener
 

[Will MacEwen]

This reminds me of the song by Joni Mitchell, Big Yellow Taxi (Paved Paradise and put up a parking lot...)


A Canadian folk singer, she was dismayed by the rawness of our country's vast wilderness. She lamented the lack of development and industrialization and the corresponding lack of opportunity. 


A close listening of the song reveals that in the end, what used to be considered paradise has been paved and everyone is better for it. Not only does it give her townsfolk a place to park their cars, but they can have farmers markets, road hockey tournaments, and even bleach their tires and do brakestands and burn outs in their muscle cars. She even notes how it is an improvement on farming because farms are not always environmentally friendly.  (Hey farmer farmer put away that DDT).


In short, sometimes you can improve on paradise by just paving it over.

[Jon Wiggett]

The cows WILL severely impact the wetland, if not outright kill all valuable species.

How do you know this?

Is it not the case that the cows might not only help to prevent certain plants from taking over the site by churning up the ground but also through this give some valuable flora the chance to fill the void left.

[Kalen Braley]

Where is Any Rand when you need her to set everyone straight.  We know what she'd do!!   

[Steve Salmen]

What endangered bird, rodent, reptile, flower, insect, or other life form will be affected here?
I own and read Dr. Macleod's years ago and don't recall mention of this land.
I will be in Dornoch this July and will make a point of seeing this land.
I've been on the wrong side of government interests and almost always sympathize with land owners.
Dornoch is a special place to me.

[Kris Shreiner]

Will,
You've got to be kidding ? Do you even understand the lytics? She talks about trees that used to be....NOW being in museums where people get CHARGED to see them!
She tells the farmers to PUT A5WAY the DDT.... she'll TAKE the spots!!!  You know, MORE naturally grown, LESS chemically enhanced.
DDT damn near wiped out the Bald Eagle, the national bird of the USA, and SEVERELY  impacted other species.
How you can draw the conclusions you stated from her lyrics of that song is ridiculous.

Steve,
Something DOESN'T have to be endangered to understand it should be ALLOWED a proper place to reproduce and live.
If man continues to show the PATHETIC disregard for the other inhabitants on the planet we have ,we WILL, in the end, destroy our OWN ability to sustain. It's that simple.
Dr. John didn't mention that site in the book. Which is a wonderful club history by the way. He, and his daughter, both keen golfers, felt that while THAT site would no doubt make for great golf....IT SHOULD BE LEFT ALONE due to its uniqueness and importance to area wildlife, particularly the birdlife that uses it. Just because it isn't in the book, doesn't mean it's open season to degrade it!
Remember, that site is in EMBO, NOT  Dornoch.
 I'll say again, NO WAY he would have wanted that ground changed for golf, and he would certainly be DEEPLY upset that his club, which he supported tirelessly, was advocating for doing so.
It is startling to me,  the clear disconnect by so many on here, that we can continue to degrade the planet and  everything is fine.
World fish stocks are down like 70% from historic numbers. Cod, for example, have been over harvested to the point that it isn't even a viable fishery in New England anymore! Tuna numbers and size average, are WAY down.

 I can go on and on. I fish. I have all my life. But I'm not stupid about taking too many, just because I could. Catch and release, take one or two for a meal, and that's it. There AIN'T enough of them left to do othetwise in most cases!

Sure, there are success stories where we have averted disaster...stripped bass RECOVERY
and improved lobster numbers, with size and quota LIMITS.
But overall, mankind needs to be a much better steward than we have been.
If not, future generations, provided we don't bomb each other to death,  will look back on our time and say,  " What IDIOTS, they helped  destroy their own home!

We're capable of so much better. Man's often a selfish beast. We SHARE the planet folks. And in the grand scheme of things, our ignorance of that reality will probably cost us our existence.
Food for thought...
Cheers,
Kris


 

[jeffwarne]

This reminds me of the song by Joni Mitchell, Big Yellow Taxi (Paved Paradise and put up a parking lot...)


A Canadian folk singer, she was dismayed by the rawness of our country's vast wilderness. She lamented the lack of development and industrialization and the corresponding lack of opportunity. 


A close listening of the song reveals that in the end, what used to be considered paradise has been paved and everyone is better for it. Not only does it give her townsfolk a place to park their cars, but they can have farmers markets, road hockey tournaments, and even bleach their tires and do brakestands and burn outs in their muscle cars. She even notes how it is an improvement on farming because farms are not always environmentally friendly.  (Hey farmer farmer put away that DDT).


In short, sometimes you can improve on paradise by just paving it over.

I really don't understand this post.
Sarcasm?

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