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Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #875 on: March 21, 2019, 02:46:55 AM »
In this particular case, just be thankful that Britain never embraced Europe. By all rights, that site should have been designated by European Law as an SAC rather than the less stringent - and British only - SSSI.


Under European Law, it would have been given the Priority 1 Fixed Dune habitat for the most part.


European Law does not care about economic advantages so it would come down to proving that you are not changing the habitat by developing it. The best you could hope for is that mowing the grass is seen as managing the area rather than being detrimental. Construction work would be an almost impossible sell.


Bryan Izatt

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Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #876 on: March 21, 2019, 04:46:21 AM »

Lou,

Although I'm not sure what kind of "due diligence" you're looking for, you can find a lot of information about the designation and plans for the SSSI that Coul Links is a part of, at the following link:

https://sitelink.nature.scot/site/984

The SSSI is actually called Loch Fleet.  It was first designated in 1975.  The documents include: SSSI Citation, Operations Requiring Consent, Site Management Statement, Nature Conservation Order, and SSSI Map.

Loch Fleet is one of 1,423 SSSI's in Scotland (a country about the size of Maine) that cover about 12.7% of Scotland's land area.  My first thought was that 12.7% sounded like a lot, but now I'm not so sure.  How much of a country should be protected from development?

It seems that some people and governments in some countries value protecting some natural areas over the inexorable creep of development and economic growth.

Decades ago, Ontario's government created a Greenbelt area protected from development surrounding Toronto and the Golden Horseshoe.  It has survived for a while despite continuous attacks of developers. 

As you probably know, Glen Abbey, the long time home of the Canadian Open and a Nicklaus course is currently in litigation trying to remove a heritage designation so it can be developed for housing.  It's worth a lot more to the owner as a housing development than it is as a golf course.  My guess is that it will be another course that NLE in a few years.

As far as Coul Links goes, that's for Scotland to decide.  Having been to the Highlands a fair number of times, I'm skeptical of the economic benefits of the development.  There are only so many well-heeled travelling golfers to go around and it seems likely that if they were to go to CL they'd likely subtract from somewhere else.  If it gets built I'd be fine with that, although I probably wouldn't go given the likely price range and the great number of other historical
 links courses available in Scotland that I'd rather go back to.  Whether it will be financially successful, I don't know.  You'll recall that Trump Balmedie was pretty well empty when we dropped by last year and is reportedly bleeding money every year so far and it is somewhat more on the beaten path being near Aberdeen.  We shall see what happens.
 

Rich Goodale

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Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #877 on: March 21, 2019, 04:51:11 AM »
Good to hear from you, Ali.  "Spinning Wheels" reminds me of Blood, Sweat and Tears.........


Didn't know that you have some plans to be at Dornoch this summer.  Send me a PM and we'll find a way to get together.  I'll definitely be there from late July to early August.


All the best


Rich



Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Lou_Duran

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Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #878 on: March 21, 2019, 03:30:47 PM »
Finally, the SSSI site at Embo was effectively chosen at random. There was no study done of the site at the time, the amount of money spent on it in all those years is £0 and there is no maintenance plan which shows how important the site really is. It was chosen to make up the numbers (or area)     Jon W (from page 34)


Bryan-


If what Jon states is fact, the due diligence is in this context, i.e. the burden of proof might be better placed on those who claim the scientific importance of the few acres involved in this project.  Me, and you know me well enough to understand where I am coming from, I will take the word of a local, highly-regarded economist with a vested interest in his club and the area over the political orientations of the governing elite hundreds of miles away.  If you consider Mr. Keiser's extensively proven record and his willingness to invest his own money in the project (this is about as 180° different than the typical Solyndra government boondoggle as it can get), I think it is reasonable to believe the pro-CL story.


As to Trump International, maybe we'll be able to talk about it in 10 years if we are still able to make sense.  Regardless, do you really see any similarities?   Would Dundonald be a closer comparison with less competition?


Yes, the CL project is up to the Scots.  So is it up to the members of Augusta National how to maintain their course; the USGA on how it manages the ball and equipment rules; the members of Congressional CC on who to bring in to renovate the course, etc.  None of this stops us from opining passionately and voluminously.  I do hope to spend some of my summers up near there and I could see playing CL on the occasional open or "coupon day".
« Last Edit: March 21, 2019, 03:34:19 PM by Lou_Duran »

Bryan Izatt

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Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #879 on: March 22, 2019, 03:55:01 AM »


Lou,


I did see that Jon said that previously.  It seems at odds with the documents at the site I linked to.  He's closer to the action, so maybe he's got it right, but the web site link does seem to suggest it's not as totally random or unstudied as Jon suggests.


The SSSI's were designated by duly elected governments and their agencies.  They were elected to govern.  On a topic such as protecting natural resources I'm not sure there's a burden of proof on the government to deny a development application.  The burden of proof surely resides with the developer who wants relief from the direction of the government.  This SSSI has been around since 1975 and there have been several different governments since then that haven't changed the direction so I don't know that SSSI's are a political thing anymore.


I don't think that protecting an SSSI environment vs privately developing a golf course is, in the end, a cost benefit or due diligence exercise.  Protecting the environment is a belief for many.


As to TIGLS and Coul Links, they are both courses to be developed on SSSI land by American developers for the high end tourist market.  What more similarity would you like to see.  The TIGLS SSSI was a much more dramatically unique shifting sand natural dune environment that is now gone - sort of sad. 


Not sure Dundonald has less classic links course competition.  Are you suggesting it was an SSSI before?

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #880 on: March 22, 2019, 09:04:27 AM »
Finally, the SSSI site at Embo was effectively chosen at random. There was no study done of the site at the time, the amount of money spent on it in all those years is £0 and there is no maintenance plan which shows how important the site really is. It was chosen to make up the numbers (or area)     Jon W (from page 34)


Bryan-


If what Jon states is fact, the due diligence is in this context, i.e. the burden of proof might be better placed on those who claim the scientific importance of the few acres involved in this project.  Me, and you know me well enough to understand where I am coming from, I will take the word of a local, highly-regarded economist with a vested interest in his club and the area over the political orientations of the governing elite hundreds of miles away. The highly regarded economist that you refer to is also a government adviser and therefore part of that government elite hundreds of miles away (201 miles from Edinburgh to Embo to be exact).               If you consider Mr. Keiser's extensively proven record and his willingness to invest his own money in the project (this is about as 180° different than the typical Solyndra government boondoggle as it can get), I think it is reasonable to believe the pro-CL story.
So basically if you have the money you get a free hand ? I’m still trying to get a handle on where you see Scotland, is it the 51st state, a soviet satellite or some third world country where money counts above all else ?

As to Trump International, maybe we'll be able to talk about it in 10 years if we are still able to make sense.  Regardless, do you really see any similarities?   Would Dundonald be a closer comparison with less competition?
The comparison between Embo and Balmedie is/was the environmentally sensitive nature of both sites; how the respective developers are arguing an economic case to over-ride planning policy; and in doing so promoting and ingratiating themselves with the locals.
In that respect there is no real comparison with Dundonald which used to be a golf course before closing down and being turned over for grazing. It simply didn’t have the same environmental designation. Likewise Dumbarnie which had a similar history.

The closest might be Mach Dunes which was farmland with pockets of SSSI from memory. There the developer chose to respect the designation, work with the respective environmental and planning agencies and design round the sensitive areas rather than build over them. KB and CS were mostly farmland and therefore there was no SSSI designation on any part of the site as far as I’m aware.
   


Yes, the CL project is up to the Scots.  So is it up to the members of Augusta National how to maintain their course; the USGA on how it manages the ball and equipment rules; the members of Congressional CC on who to bring in to renovate the course, etc.  None of this stops us from opining passionately and voluminously.  I do hope to spend some of my summers up near there and I could see playing CL on the occasional open or "coupon day".


Niall C

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Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #881 on: March 22, 2019, 09:07:21 AM »
Bryan

I'm not sure how anyone can say Dundonald has less classic links course competition than the proposed course at Embo.  You can stand on a fairway at Dundonald and hit a ball over the railway line onto Western Gailes with a lob wedge. You can also hit from Dundonald over the fence onto Kilmarnock Barrasie with a 9 iron. Hitting Glasgow Gailes takes a bit more effort as it will likely need a 3 wood to reach the Gailes practice area unless you’re a big hitter.

Also in half the time that it takes to drive from Embo to Brora you can drive from to Dundonald to 12 other venerable (ie. old/classic) links courses beyond the 3 I’ve just mentioned.

That’s 15 links courses in total within 15 minutes drive including a former Open course (Prestwick), a current Open course (Royal Troon) and at least 5 other courses that have been Open Qualifiers at some point in time (Glasgow Gailes, Western, Irvine Bogside, Troon Portland, Troon Lochgreen).

Anyway, in the words of the good Professor, is not all about agglomeration ?

Niall

Niall C

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Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #882 on: March 22, 2019, 09:10:50 AM »
Bryan

I forgot to add, if you want some info on SSSI see link below. It will tell you nearly all you need to know. I say "nearly" as unfortunately they forgot to include the bit where the government elite get together to pick the SSSI’s by putting on blindfolds and then sticking pins in the map.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Site_of_Special_Scientific_Interest

Niall

Tim Gallant

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Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #883 on: March 22, 2019, 01:28:25 PM »
Just as a quick update - the enquiry has now ended. It looks like the coalition (against) will have 2 weeks to provide their closing submission with conditions, then the council will have an additional week, and then the applicant one final week to submit theirs. All told, all closing submissions will be in by April 22. My guess is it will take a few weeks / month for a decision to be made thereafter. Looking increasingly like end of May / June before a decision is made.

Bryan Izatt

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Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #884 on: March 23, 2019, 04:54:49 AM »

Niall,


I was trying to gently respond to Lou's assertion that "Would Dundonald be a closer comparison with less competition?"  I'm well aware of the many classic links courses near Dundonald.

In looking at the background of SSSI's, I've been looking at the Scottish National Heritage site.  http://www.nature.scot


Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #885 on: March 24, 2019, 07:56:56 AM »
After McKenna's not entirely balanced piece last week, The Observer give some praise to golf's approach to sustainability this week: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2019/mar/24/time-to-follow-golfs-surprising-lead-and-find-different-ways-to-be-green
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Niall C

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Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #886 on: March 24, 2019, 08:32:58 AM »
Mark

Do you mean the Guardian rather than the Observer ?

Bryan

My remarks were more aimed at Lou although I'm fairly sure Lou as a good idea of the courses near Dundonald.

Niall

Mark Pearce

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Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #887 on: March 24, 2019, 08:41:38 AM »
I think it was published today, so no, I mean the Observer.  They share a website.  If it was published yesterday then it was the Guardian.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #888 on: March 24, 2019, 08:50:22 AM »
Mark

Thanks, my mistake. I don't think I was aware that the Guardian and Observer were linked in the same way as the Times and Sunday Times.

Niall

Lou_Duran

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Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #889 on: March 25, 2019, 01:15:03 PM »
Re:  my Dundonald comparison to the CL project- it was solely in response to the "gentle" Mr. Izatt who brought up the financial viability of Trump International (he implies that it is failing, I think) to question the financial/economic future of CL.  I am suggesting that the much more moderate objectives and plans for CL better resemble those of Dundonald, a single 18-hole golf course with modest hard, fixed infrastructure.  TI is about large, upscale real estate development.  CL seeks to add a high quality item to a limited menu in that area.  That the project enjoys strong local support including from its most likely competitors- R. Dornoch, C. Stuart, maybe even Skibo- suggests that it has a leg up.  My comments regarding Mike Keiser have nothing to do with money running roughshod over the interests of the people.  Quite the opposite, he has a strong record of investing wisely which very much incorporates careful consideration of his customers and the local communities.


Re: the ever-hyperbolic NiallC's characterization of my views of Scotland- the 51st state, a Soviet puppet, a banana republic- could this be an attempt to draw a distinction without a difference?  For example, if the 51st follows in the mode of CA where experts estimate the regulatory cost of a new home is upwards 30% of the total price, does that differ from having to pay Vlad through one of his cronies a similar amount to build a hotel in Moscow?  Might there be a reason other than political philosophy why developer Trump gave a lot of money to his pals Chuck, Hillary, and the Democrat NYC political machine?  Could these top-down, highly corrupt practices be a good part of the reason why CA and NYC are not affordable for the vast majority at prevailing wages?  Want to build along the Costa del Sol or in parts of other former Spanish colonies, get with the ayuntamiento and grease those skids.  Visit Mexico for examples of the effects of central planning on real real estate as actually practiced.


It really comes down to private property rights, respect for the law, and who wields control.  As I understand, the SSSI designation was imposed on the CL property owners by the central planners without compensation.  Perhaps it is not the law in Scotland to fairly compensate those affected by adverse possession.  With the shifting political sands, I wonder if someday London or Edinburgh might not see wisdom and necessity in mandating the use of spare bedrooms in private homes to alleviate housing shortages.  In Cuba, they just let people stop paying rent and move into temporarily unoccupied homes, permanently.  In Venezuela, that other socialist paradise, they closed golf courses to build shanties for public housing, until they ran out of oil money after the government and the military took their cuts from the top.  What awaits the Western World?  Be careful what you wish for.  Don't respect private property rights, delegitimize the framework of laws, abandon common sense and it won't end well.  Whew, I might have exhausted the subject matter!                   
« Last Edit: March 25, 2019, 01:17:52 PM by Lou_Duran »

Niall C

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Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #890 on: March 26, 2019, 02:55:48 PM »
Lou

You are correct about the difference between Embo and Balmedie (just this week there were stories about Trumps revised application for the housing element) however Dundonald is a private members club that allows visitors as most Scottish clubs do, which is different to a pay and play model. A better comparison for Embo might be to CS, KB, Dumbarnie or perhaps best of all in terms of business model, relative remoteness and proximity to classic links, Mach Dunes.

As for my gently poking fun at your various worldly examples of how Scotland should be or might be or whatever (I'm never quite sure which) it is all intended as good fun as you hopefully appreciate. I do wonder however why you think the planning system in Scotland is an attack on private property rights and doesn't respect the law as you seem to allude. I'm sure Scotland's planning system isn't perfect but it's not that bad, surely ?

Niall

Sean_A

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Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #891 on: March 26, 2019, 05:53:49 PM »
Niall

Property rights in the US are far more sancrosanct than in the UK because individual rights are cherished more in the US than any country I know of (well, maybe the Patriot Act has changed that!).  The property rights deal probably stems from the days when the Constitution allowed States to set voting rights (or more accurately requirements!).  Most states only allowed (white, male) property owning, tax paying citizens to vote...property rights are deeply rooted in the American psyche.  The voting rights in the US is long and very chequered!

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #892 on: March 26, 2019, 10:34:08 PM »
Niall,


Mine is a mostly philosophical argument, so "should" is what I am going for.  And I do understand that our banter is lighthearted.


Re: CL similarities to Dundonald, again, I wasn't addressing the structures of the respective clubs, only that they share more in common from the standpoint of footprint and capital requirements than CL and Trump International.  I was unaware that CL was planned as solely a pay and play club.


As to Sean's civic lesson, it is clear that he's been away too long.  What I can do with my property is largely dependent on which state the property is in, and within that state, the city or local jurisdiction involved.  Then there are issues dealing with water, flood prone areas, wetlands, etc. in which the Feds (CoE, EPA, Fish & Wildlife, etc.) have a lot of sway.


An example is a Dallas course which completed a major renovation recently that was deemed highly successful but for one thing, not enough trees were taken out.  The architect was first to acknowledge the shortcoming, noting that for an additional $1 Million payment to the city, it could have removed the offending trees (the city supposedly would use the money to plant an equal # of caliper feet on its many properties).


In contrast, my old club near Arlington, less than 30 miles away, was sold to a warehouse developer who proceeded to clear cut the site.  The city involved didn't have a tree ordinance and the site had been zoned nearly 70 years earlier as part of a gigantic industrial park.  Ironically, part of the golf property along Johnson Creek was under the auspices of the CoE, but the developers were able to stay away from the affected areas.


Back to civics, the S in USA stands for States, not State.  The 13 states came together to form a union only on the condition of each mostly maintaining their sovereign rights.  Without getting into negative and positive rights, suffice it to say that the framers had in mind a very limited federal government with much of the responsibilities of governing left with the states and whatever jurisdictions each charters.


As to the voting history here, how many centuries did it take for the UK to allow most of its citizens to vote?  And, BTW, how well is it working?  It is absolute nonsense that certain people are disenfranchised unjustly in the U.S., unless of course one is talking about conservative voters in any number of large blue cities and states.  But that and having skin in the game are whole other discussions.
 


       

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #893 on: March 27, 2019, 11:52:27 AM »
Lou,


I wouldn't quit your day job and become a history or political science adviser.  That is one hellavu viewpoint on politics and the state of voting in America....  ;)

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #894 on: March 27, 2019, 12:34:30 PM »
Lou Duran states, “I was unaware that CL was planned as solely a pay and play club.”
As far as I know, and from what I have read, this has never been discussed publicly therefore and I doubt that anyone on this forum knows - one way or another.

Who here has been to Sand Valley?

If yes, what do you see on the large wall just before you walk into the pro shop from the lobby?
A list of “Founders” that number close to 100.
Keiser's "model" is no secret.

 

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #895 on: March 27, 2019, 01:13:18 PM »


As to Sean's civic lesson, it is clear that he's been away too long.  What I can do with my property is largely dependent on which state the property is in, and within that state, the city or local jurisdiction involved.  Then there are issues dealing with water, flood prone areas, wetlands, etc. in which the Feds (CoE, EPA, Fish & Wildlife, etc.) have a lot of sway.

An example is a Dallas course which completed a major renovation recently that was deemed highly successful but for one thing, not enough trees were taken out.  The architect was first to acknowledge the shortcoming, noting that for an additional $1 Million payment to the city, it could have removed the offending trees (the city supposedly would use the money to plant an equal # of caliper feet on its many properties).

In contrast, my old club near Arlington, less than 30 miles away, was sold to a warehouse developer who proceeded to clear cut the site.  The city involved didn't have a tree ordinance and the site had been zoned nearly 70 years earlier as part of a gigantic industrial park.  Ironically, part of the golf property along Johnson Creek was under the auspices of the CoE, but the developers were able to stay away from the affected areas.

Back to civics, the S in USA stands for States, not State.  The 13 states came together to form a union only on the condition of each mostly maintaining their sovereign rights.  Without getting into negative and positive rights, suffice it to say that the framers had in mind a very limited federal government with much of the responsibilities of governing left with the states and whatever jurisdictions each charters.

As to the voting history here, how many centuries did it take for the UK to allow most of its citizens to vote?  And, BTW, how well is it working?  It is absolute nonsense that certain people are disenfranchised unjustly in the U.S., unless of course one is talking about conservative voters in any number of large blue cities and states.  But that and having skin in the game are whole other discussions.       

Sweet Lou

My point was merely to show the relationship between property rights, voting rights and individual rights. IMO it is quite obvious that property rights are better protected in the US than in the UK.  I made no comment on current disenfranchisement...just the past...and calling it chequered is a soft criticism given history.  I don't pay much attention to disenfranchisement, but unless things have changed, you may wish to look into WDC.  The Puerto Rican set up is very odd as well. People tell me wars are started over this stuff.  8)

I know nothing about voter rights in the UK other than PA 1918 and 1928 and the idea of plural voting(!). For sure, the UK doesn't have a stellar record regarding this issue.


Ciao
« Last Edit: March 27, 2019, 01:51:44 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

James Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #896 on: March 28, 2019, 11:06:17 PM »
OMG, somebody kill this thread!  36 pages of squabbling!

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #897 on: March 30, 2019, 11:26:50 AM »
OMG, somebody kill this thread!  36 pages of squabbling!


Ok with the censors?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnDEr9R0snU

John Crowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #898 on: March 31, 2019, 05:49:11 PM »
OMG, somebody kill this thread!  36 pages of squabbling!


+1

James Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Keiser's Coul Links Project (Embo/Dornoch)
« Reply #899 on: March 31, 2019, 10:17:07 PM »
OMG, somebody kill this thread!  36 pages of squabbling!


Ok with the censors?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnDEr9R0snU


I am a new member at Royal Dornoch and I have my own mixed feelings about a another course just down the road, but the last 20+ posts have been about properly rights in the EU and UK.  I know those are real issues.  They just have nothing to add about golf course architecture in my view, 


Although they do represent the nature of the arguments about every new land development project on a coast. 

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