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Sven Nilsen

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Re: The Estate Courses
« Reply #75 on: March 10, 2016, 10:16:09 PM »
Virginia

Thomas Fortune Ryan Estate (Richmond) - Unknown



Wisconsin

Frank Stout Private Course (Red Cedar Lake) - Unknown
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Estate Courses
« Reply #76 on: March 11, 2016, 01:50:36 PM »
I am just as curious about the names and families involved with these courses as I am the actual designs.  For example, a quick look into the background of the Kinney course in Narragansett Rhode Island leads one to a history of the tobacco industry in the United States, the old farms that dotted the New England country side, the founding of Venice, CA and the formation of "resort" or summer retreat on the western shores of the Narragansett Bay.


If anyone has any insight into the major players in these Estate Courses, please chime in.


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Estate Courses
« Reply #77 on: December 28, 2016, 11:06:26 PM »
Buried in a May 1897 The Golfer article on Queens County GC (the precursor of Nassau CC) is a list of private courses located in the vicinity of Glen Cove.

Some of these names are noted earlier in the thread, but most of them are new.  In addition, I have never heard of Red Spring Company or the North CC (although a quick search leads you to this:  http://www.thehistorybox.com/ny_city/society/articles/nycity_society_homes_rich_famous_article00249a.htm).

Dana
Chubb
Pratt
Tappan
Cocks
Godwin
Red Spring Company
North Country Club



"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Bret Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Estate Courses
« Reply #78 on: December 31, 2016, 10:29:02 PM »
Sven,


Here is a clip attributing Willie Dunn to the original Howard Gould Estate Course.

N.Y. Times-December 23, 1900:



Bret

Bret Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Estate Courses
« Reply #79 on: January 01, 2017, 09:05:16 AM »
Here is a Lewis & Valentine advertisement which includes a testimonial from Daniel Guggenheim regarding his private course in 1920. The ad also includes a letter from Devereux Emmet and another from the Westchester Biltmore CC. The advertisement was found in Golf Illustrated-July 1921:



Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Estate Courses
« Reply #80 on: November 17, 2017, 11:11:49 AM »
District of Columbia

Charles Corby Private Course (DC) - Unknown

Friendship GC aka E. B. McLean Private Course (DC) - Flynn/Connellan

-Golf Illustrated April 1921




Update on Friendship.  It appears the original architect of McLean's private course was Robert White.  If the work described in this article took place, Connellan's work most likely involved implementing the Flynn redesign that took place later.


Evening Star - March 14, 1921


"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sandy Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Estate Courses
« Reply #81 on: November 19, 2017, 12:45:49 AM »
I think we should all pitch in and make a offer. Iím sure Will would be happy to look after any legal issues that we may encounter.
http://luxuryhomes.com/lh/listing/ByAgent/Scott_Piercy-James_LeBlanc/James_Island[/font]
Firm greens, firmer fairways.

Bret Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Estate Courses
« Reply #82 on: November 26, 2017, 11:01:20 AM »
James J. Lynn had a private nine hole estate course in Kansas City:



A quick search reveals that James J. Lynn was a very successful businessman from the Midwest who later turned to Indian spirituality and became known as Rajarsi Janakanada.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajarsi_Janakananda




Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Estate Courses
« Reply #83 on: November 28, 2018, 01:45:31 PM »
California

Douglas Fairbanks and Mary Pickford Private Course (Rancho Santa Fe) - Unknown


Looks like this one was done by Max Behr.

March 27, 1927 Detroit Free Press -

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Estate Courses
« Reply #84 on: December 11, 2019, 09:23:37 PM »

Regarding the Will Rodgers course, in the early aerials, I don't think it ever amounted to more then two or three greens with some bunkers on the main lawn in front of the house.  I've been on that lawn and three bunkers remain, The rest of the course is grown over Kykuya grass as one would expect being so close to Riviera.

The Rogers course was described in the following article as a pitch and putt course.  What is of interest is that it was designed and built by William Bell.

March 17, 1930 Los Angeles Evening Express -

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Colin Sheehan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Estate Courses
« Reply #85 on: October 30, 2020, 03:52:50 PM »
Sven,
Great job putting the list together. As I mentioned in the CT Aerial thread, I enjoyed seeing a few of the NLE estate courses in Connecticut, especially the water-front Harkness Estate. I've been trying to figure out the routing. I think I can follow it or make a best guest. For Harkness and the Bloch Estate, another course listed as Wayne Stiles, do you know the year of their creation?
Does anyone know if he would deserve solo credit or shared credit with Van Kleek.


Is that included in the Labbance book? I don't own a copy.


Thanks,
Colin




Tommy Williamsen

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Re: The Estate Courses
« Reply #86 on: October 30, 2020, 05:39:44 PM »
You can add HERONWOOD FARM AND GOLF COURSE in Virginia.

« Last Edit: October 30, 2020, 05:43:50 PM by Tommy Williamsen »
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Bret Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Estate Courses
« Reply #87 on: November 04, 2020, 09:34:11 AM »
Sven,
Great job putting the list together. As I mentioned in the CT Aerial thread, I enjoyed seeing a few of the NLE estate courses in Connecticut, especially the water-front Harkness Estate. I've been trying to figure out the routing. I think I can follow it or make a best guest. For Harkness and the Bloch Estate, another course listed as Wayne Stiles, do you know the year of their creation?
Does anyone know if he would deserve solo credit or shared credit with Van Kleek.


Is that included in the Labbance book? I don't own a copy.


Thanks,
Colin


Colin,


The Stiles and Van Kleek book lists the Paul Block Estate 9-hole course as one of their projects..  The list was from 1931 and the title suggests all courses listed were built by the firm of Stiles and Van Kleek Inc.


I donít know an exact year the course was built, but if you look at the 1925-1926 Westchester County aerial, the course appears to be growing in, rather than fully mature.  2 of the hole corridors on the Paul Block Estate sit on land owned by Fairview Country Club today. 


Bret

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Estate Courses
« Reply #88 on: November 04, 2020, 10:55:02 AM »
The Finley Shepard course in NY is today a public nine-hole called Shepard Hills. 


I had someone in another forum recently reach out to me for any information re: the architect, so I thought I'd try to solicit any information here.   Thanks.
 
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Mike Worth

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Estate Courses
« Reply #89 on: November 10, 2020, 05:26:30 PM »
The Finley Shepard course in NY is today a public nine-hole called Shepard Hills. 


I had someone in another forum recently reach out to me for any information re: the architect, so I thought I'd try to solicit any information here.   Thanks.


Mike.  I played the course this year and took pictures.  I don't have photo bucket so I'm not able to post pictures here.  I can email if you want.  I also sent you a private message

[/size]I grew up in the area.  I played the course several times for the High School golf team but that was 40 yrs ago.  We were unaware of its history.


Also discovered recently that Finley J. Shepard, who had the 9 hole estate course built at his summer home in Roxbury, was the President of Sleepy Hollow Golf Club in 1914, as he also lived in Tarrytown.  Might mean something, might not mean something. 

Peter Flory

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Estate Courses
« Reply #90 on: May 26, 2021, 02:10:36 PM »
I didn't see these pics posted anywhere, so I'll put them here. 

These are of the Otto Kahn private estate course- Woodbury/ now Cold Springs.  Raynor, but I believe that I read in another thread here that Kahn sort of injected himself in the design process and added a bunch of fairway bunkers. 

The contours on the 18th (2nd pic) look delightful. 




Mark Mammel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Estate Courses
« Reply #91 on: May 26, 2021, 03:02:59 PM »
Virginia

Thomas Fortune Ryan Estate (Richmond) - Unknown



Wisconsin

Frank Stout Private Course (Red Cedar Lake) - Unknown
Sven- The Stout course, now known as Tagalong, still includes all the original greens and fairways, though the original 5th hole now play from a different teeing ground. The course was begun in 1916, and an opening match the US and British Open champions, Willie MacFarland and Long Jim Barnes, was held in 1925. It's still a fun track.
So much golf to play, so little time....

Mark

Michael Wolf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Estate Courses
« Reply #92 on: May 31, 2021, 11:33:24 PM »
There's currently a house for sale on the 4th fairway of Cypress Point. The listing says the property comes with its own 3 hole course. Only $6,998,000 for you bargain hunters.


Michael

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Estate Courses
« Reply #93 on: November 12, 2021, 12:14:21 PM »
Vanderbilt Biltmore Estate GC (Asheville) - W. Davis

-New York Times Jan. 25, 1896




The attached map was included in a recent Golfweek article on this early course, although the article had no mention of Davis' involvement.


"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Matt MacIver

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Estate Courses
« Reply #94 on: November 12, 2021, 01:14:58 PM »
Sven - that land could be where the winery and hotel is now.  Hasnít been golf on that property for a long time now despite having tons of room to do so.

Ben Hollerbach

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Estate Courses
« Reply #95 on: November 12, 2021, 01:56:55 PM »
That map would place the course south west from the Estate, and quite a ways back east of the of the winery/hotel complex.


Michael Chadwick

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Estate Courses
« Reply #96 on: November 12, 2021, 02:13:34 PM »
That map would place the course south west from the Estate, and quite a ways back east of the of the winery/hotel complex.




Thanks for this perspective, Ben. I was just glancing at Google Maps to see if there might've been any overlap with Ross's Biltmore Forest, though not so.
Instagram: mj_c_golf

Matt MacIver

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Estate Courses
« Reply #97 on: November 13, 2021, 09:36:48 AM »
Yes completely agree thatís what I meant, just fields of corn or soy or something there now.

Paul Rudovsky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Estate Courses
« Reply #98 on: November 13, 2021, 07:08:48 PM »
I should point out that the Lasker Course in IL was included on the Tom MacWood/Ran Morrissett "spoof" World Top 100 list published on GCA (listed as #23). Go to:  https://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/tom-macwood-the-worlds-finest-courses/


It is one of five courses on this list that is a NLE:


Lasker's
Lido (NY)
Havana (Cuba)
Tokyo GC--Asaka (Japan)
Foulpointe (Madagaspar)...which NEVER existed!

Bret Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Estate Courses
« Reply #99 on: November 15, 2021, 08:59:04 PM »
There was a nice story in the New London Day a few weeks back on Edward Harknessí Private Estate course in Waterford, CT. John Ruddy did a great write-up on the history of the course and Scott Ritter did a really nice job on the graphics for the layout and reproduction of the old scorecard. 


Here is a link to the story:


https://www.theday.com/article/20211106/NWS01/211109606?fbclid=IwAR3sCaMOCQC1AXZn_WcFBC9ExTJsuArR7FBeCcL-trEsMNfET2G_Sty73aM


Here are a few photos from a recent visit:


The first tee started near the water tower in a 1936 description of the course:





This picture is from the northeast of the property looking back towards the house.
Approximately in the neighborhood of the second tee looking back down the first hole:





This would have been the approach to the third green which sat out at the point:



The 4th hole:





Bunker on the fourth hole:





The beach section of the property:





The remains of a greenside bunker on the 7th hole:





The ninth hole finished playing from the point back up to the house:






A final look back down the ninth hole:
« Last Edit: November 15, 2021, 10:01:18 PM by Bret Lawrence »

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