[Tom_Doak]

The construction of revetted bunkers is a slow process, and with the Eco Bunker it's even slower, because there are 3x as many layers of material to install.  The up side is that once you've finished, it should last for a decade or more, and that's a significant budget savings for a club like Pennard.  [They told me that they haven't had much $ left over to do any other "projects" in recent years because all the spare income for the year was spent rebuilding the bunkers.]


The down side of the Eco Bunker is that the slow pace makes it very expensive to bring in an experienced crew to do the work.  There aren't many architects or shapers who have much experience with building these bunkers.  By far the best guys for the work are the crew members who have been rebuilding a % of the bunkers at St. Andrews and Muirfield every winter.  At The Renaissance Club, we had a great crew made up of guys from the other local clubs ... but we couldn't be around to supervise them, and sometimes we didn't leave them the right land form for them to translate into a cool bunker shape, because we are just guessing trying to visualize what they'll do.


As someone who has always tried to bring in my own shapers to make sure the finished product looks just how I want, this is a new and less than perfect process.  I believe the quality of the work will continue to improve as the crew gains more experience with the materials ... and as we gain more experience in how to direct them.


In the meantime, I'm sure that Pennard will be happy to take volunteer construction help from anyone who wants to pitch in!

[Jeff_Lewis]

Lovely to hear about both.  Pennard is one of those magical experiences that we had only because of the original Confidential Guide. 

[Joshua Pettit]

Tom,

At any point did Pennard consider abandoning the revetted bunkers in favor of a more natural look, like the old bunkers at St. Andrews, or even a combination of revetted and non-revetted bunkers similar to what you did at The Renaissance Club?  If economics is the reasoning for the rework that would seem like a sensible long-term solution.

Also, has Woodhall Spa considered doing anything to the Bracken course?  Admittedly, I didn't see it when I was there visiting and know very little about it.  Is the land comparable to the Hotchkin?

[Thomas Dai]

Tom and Clyde,


Thanks for the updates. I hope everything works out well and look forwarding to visiting. Very nice area the Gower Peninsula, can be a bit windy at times though!


Tom, are you indicating that St A, Muirfield and Renaissance are using eco-bunkering or just that the crews doing general revetting work at these courses are the best you've seen doing revetting work?


Atb

[Adrian_Stiff]

The construction of revetted bunkers is a slow process, and with the Eco Bunker it's even slower, because there are 3x as many layers of material to install.  The up side is that once you've finished, it should last for a decade or more, and that's a significant budget savings for a club like Pennard.  [They told me that they haven't had much $ left over to do any other "projects" in recent years because all the spare income for the year was spent rebuilding the bunkers.]


The down side of the Eco Bunker is that the slow pace makes it very expensive to bring in an experienced crew to do the work.  There aren't many architects or shapers who have much experience with building these bunkers.  By far the best guys for the work are the crew members who have been rebuilding a % of the bunkers at St. Andrews and Muirfield every winter.  At The Renaissance Club, we had a great crew made up of guys from the other local clubs ... but we couldn't be around to supervise them, and sometimes we didn't leave them the right land form for them to translate into a cool bunker shape, because we are just guessing trying to visualize what they'll do.


As someone who has always tried to bring in my own shapers to make sure the finished product looks just how I want, this is a new and less than perfect process.  I believe the quality of the work will continue to improve as the crew gains more experience with the materials ... and as we gain more experience in how to direct them.


In the meantime, I'm sure that Pennard will be happy to take volunteer construction help from anyone who wants to pitch in!

Tom - Do you like the look of the eco-bunker?

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,

At any point did Pennard consider abandoning the revetted bunkers in favor of a more natural look, like the old bunkers at St. Andrews, or even a combination of revetted and non-revetted bunkers similar to what you did at The Renaissance Club?  If economics is the reasoning for the rework that would seem like a sensible long-term solution.

Also, has Woodhall Spa considered doing anything to the Bracken course?  Admittedly, I didn't see it when I was there visiting and know very little about it.  Is the land comparable to the Hotchkin?

Josh:


Pennard's additional concern regarding bunkers is that the property is a commons and there is a farmer grazing cows on it in the summer months.  The cows can do enormous damage around the bunkers and they are hoping that the eco bunker will hold up better than anything else.  This summer will be the first real test of that theory.


The Bracken course at Woodhall Spa is not part of my scope of work at present, so I did not even go and look around it on this trip.  I was told it's built on much heavier soil than the Hotchkin, and that they have had trouble with the green contours changing over the years because the soil underneath is prone to heaving!

[Tom_Doak]

Tom, are you indicating that St A, Muirfield and Renaissance are using eco-bunkering or just that the crews doing general revetting work at these courses are the best you've seen doing revetting work?

Only the latter.  Sorry for any confusion.

[Jason Topp]

Tom - are you going to leave 17 and 18 at Pennard alone?  Those are both strange holes although I do not know whether changing them would improve or detract from the playing experience.

[Tony_Muldoon]

 I went to the Ballet again recently. I hardly ever go and I'm definitely not a connoisseur but it bugged the hell out of me that the music was pre-recorded. It was loud and perfect but it lacked the element of chance that things might go wrong. It had lost it's charm. No doubt its cheaper that way and as far as I could tell, I was the only one who even noticed.

[Garland Bayley]

How many people are torn in their feelings about work being done at places like Pennard?  When mention of safety I immediately wonder if holes 3/4 are on the chopping block.  I understand why safety concerns need to be addressed if there is increased play, which is a good thing for revenue but a bad thing for the feel of the course.

I would have no problem if he were to get rid off those ridiculous artificial turf paths (cart?) at Pennard.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom - are you going to leave 17 and 18 at Pennard alone?  Those are both strange holes although I do not know whether changing them would improve or detract from the playing experience.

The left side of #17 at Pennard [the last 100-150 yards going into the green] is completely overrun with gorse, that we will clear out.  That will make a huge difference to that hole.  It was a very cool second shot over the shoulder of the hill the first time I played it.


I don't think #18 is strange at all, just hard to hold the fairway.  That's a beautiful green, much better than I remembered it.

[Bill_McBride]

Tom - are you going to leave 17 and 18 at Pennard alone?  Those are both strange holes although I do not know whether changing them would improve or detract from the playing experience.

The left side of #17 at Pennard [the last 100-150 yards going into the green] is completely overrun with gorse, that we will clear out.  That will make a huge difference to that hole.  It was a very cool second shot over the shoulder of the hill the first time I played it.


I don't think #18 is strange at all, just hard to hold the fairway.  That's a beautiful green, much better than I remembered it.

Knowing how to hit a fade off the tee is a big help on 18.   Sounds like a good plan for 17, there has really been nowhere to hit your second in the past. 

[Sean_A]

I don't think #18 is strange at all, just hard to hold the fairway.  That's a beautiful green, much better than I remembered it.

Tom - whatever happens at Pennard...please try to convince the powers that be that the defined fairways the club has been going for in recent years is a disaster.  The course looks far more natural in the pix below and more importantly...the course is far more forgiving.  All the defined look did was introduce strangling rough. 

Pennard's greens are much better than people realize..they are a very good set. 
A look at the 18th green from the rear.


Glad to hear the crap on 17 will go, it was done before to great effect...about the same time they widened the tee shot out right by clearing a load of crap.  Do you think sticking a bunker or two on that ridge would help send a message to keep the area clear?  Below is a look at how narrow the approach is...plus one is playing to this area diagonally...more or less between two lost ball zones.


The bunkers that always bothered me are these two 


The bunkers on the left for 6 are dire as well...totally unnecessary and ugly.

Ciao

[Niall C]

Tom/Clyde,


Perhaps you could answer me this, how often did the club revett their bunkers ? I appreciate that the cows might make a difference but I wonder if these days clubs do it too often as they see new revetting every year at the Open and think that is the standard. If you like, the UK's version of the Augusta effect. Perhaps the thing to do is to persuade the R&A to purposely not do it to encourage clubs to let their bunkers go a few years longer. Just an idea.


Niall

[jeffwarne]

moved to other thread

[JJShanley]

What are the advantages of revetted bunkers?

I've no idea about cost of maintenance, but I'd think that they leave a tough recovery if you end up near the face.  An otherwise shallow bunker can prove more difficult with revets (sic.?)

[jeffwarne]

moved

[JJShanley]

It's only a blast out with a SW if you end up at the face.  If you have the good fortune to end up in the center you've a shot to the green.  I suppose it penalizes the player who takes on a carry over a bunker and fails narrowly to pull off the shot more than it does the player who misjudges distances and allows a shot to run in.  The latter (I've found, at least) will have a shot.  This may depend on the firmness of the sand, but I think that links courses tend to have fluffier sand.  (If that's a thing.)

[Niall C]

Jeff & JJ,


Personally I like the look of revetted faces generally however simple round pots become tedious fairly quickly. As with most things variety is the key. As for whether they are tougher to get out of than any other type of bunker, I'm not sure why the type of bunker face should matter that much. Surely it would be down to the angle of the face to the line of play, the steepness of the face, the height of the face and how much room there is in the bunker, which is why I liked the look of the changes in the photograph. Mind you I had assumed they were fairway bunkers but that might not be the case.


Niall

[jeffwarne]

.

[Thomas Dai]

With revetted bunkers (and otherwise constructed small size bunkers too) there is also the stance issue.


Unless you're pretty much in the middle of the bunker you're probably going to have to manufacture a shot using some kind of uneven one-foot-up, one-foot-down stance. A reasonable challenge IMO as bunker play generally has become too easy over the decades. They're supposed to be hazards after all so in relation to the Pennard bunker photgraphs posted by Eric above I'd rather see the two bunkers re-done with eco-bunker than one bigger bunker constructed.



Interesting comparison with Aberdovey's blow-out style Jeff. I like revetted but also happen to like the current Aberdovey style, but Aberdovey's bunkers are not large in size so they do present a proper challenge.


Question - players (idiots) have been known to scramble or climb up the face of a revetted bunker. What would happen to the eco-turfs in such a scenario? Would they hold up to such abuse? Should steps be installed?


Atb

[JJShanley]

Question - players (idiots) have been known to scramble or climb up the face of a revetted bunker. What would happen to the eco-turfs in such a scenario? Would they hold up to such abuse? Should steps be installed?

Make them deep enough that they have to exit at the back.

[Sean_A]

I think guys are confusing issues.

Revetted bunkers don't dictate size, depth and to some degree shape.  Muirfield's bunkers vary. 

1. Revetted bunkers serve to stabilize faces of deepish bunkers. 

2. Large exposed areas make it easier for sand to be displaced (even for revetted bunkers) and often times this can be harmful to the turf.  The depth of the bunker works to retain sand.   

3. If built in more natural depressions, the smaller pot style bunkers (though the shape can alter dramatically) can actually be more gathering and thus less sand can be used to create hazards which effect greater acerage.  In effect, this style, if done right and judicously, can save money without sacrificing hazard interest. 

All that said, the Aberdovey bunkering is by far the most visually attractive of any new bunker job I have seen.  They are quite low lying with tons of fingering going through them.  BUT, if you go in one there is a good chance of  terrible lie.

Ciao

[Garland Bayley]

My experience at Pennard is that play is excessively slow with a full course. The reason was that on probably a majority of holes (at least it seemed so) you could not hit your drive, because there were players in front of you that were out of view. You had to wait until they walked up to the green, and came into view again before you could safely hit.


Can anything reasonable be done about that?

[jeffwarne]

.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()