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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
I'm starting a new thread to hopefully move the discussion of bunker styles off this page and on to its own heading.  I appreciate the interest in the topic, but it's too difficult to discuss these issues for my two new clients this early in the process.

ward peyronnin

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Tom,
Nice to see you on board. I absolutely love Pennard and it seems the kind of property that fits your eye and style.

If you desire any very lo cost consulting regarding restoration/stabilization of golf course follies I would like to apply after 40 years in the building business.

Best of Luck and see if you can discover a way to keep those pesky cows off the course so they can fertilize the grass every once in a while; I dunno maybe the grass conditions contributes to the charm.

Ward
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

Eric Smith

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Best of Luck and see if you can discover a way to keep those pesky cows off the course so they can fertilize the grass every once in a while; I dunno maybe the grass conditions contributes to the charm.

Ward

Ward,

I'd have a tough time coming up with a more charming spot in my golf travels than at Pennard. I mean seriously with THIS as your first shot of the day how can anything else compare?! ;D


Sean_A

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Eric


The front of the 1st tee used to be a favourite grazing ground.





Ciao



New plays planned for 2024: Dunfanaghy, Fraserburgh, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Tom,

Best of Luck and see if you can discover a way to keep those pesky cows off the course so they can fertilize the grass every once in a while; I dunno maybe the grass conditions contributes to the charm.

Ward

Ward,

why would you even contemplate fertilising the fairways and rough?

Jon

Sean_A

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Jon


I think Wardo is really just thinking of getting decent fairways, however that is achieved.  Pennard has long had issues with sparse growth on greens and fairways.  I am not sure the site ever grew in properly once the rabbits were dealt with some 60 years ago.  Prior to the 50s, Pennard was a sandy waste of a course much like we see in a few of the above pix.  As Tom notes, expectations have changed and loose sand strewn about the place is no longer considered reasonable.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Dunfanaghy, Fraserburgh, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Thomas Dai

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No slur intended on the club where this photo was taken, but well fertilised grazing land is often found near clubhouses......I suspect it's due to the vast amount of bull$hit emanating from committee rooms and the like (sic!).


Atb

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
When Volume 2 of The Confidential Guide was released, I did an interview [perhaps the very one on this forum, I'm not sure] where someone asked me what course I'd most like to restore, and I volunteered Bel Air.


As it turned out, there are several members of Bel Air whom I know, who saw that, and so I was asked to come and explain myself.

I would most like to restore Sunningdale New, Pine Valley and/or Commonwealth.
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jon


I think Wardo is really just thinking of getting decent fairways, however that is achieved.  Pennard has long had issues with sparse growth on greens and fairways.  I am not sure the site ever grew in properly once the rabbits were dealt with some 60 years ago.  Prior to the 50s, Pennard was a sandy waste of a course much like we see in a few of the above pix.  As Tom notes, expectations have changed and loose sand strewn about the place is no longer considered reasonable.


Ciao

Sean,

in the UK in established fairways the solution to sparse cover is nearly always solved through insuring the soil is aerated and drained. Throwing fertiliser at it is always a bad practice in the long run. The greens are a matter of correct aeration and an appropriate feeding program. I suspect the loose sand has more to do with the grazing than sparse growth.

Jon

Sean_A

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Jon


As I wrote earlier, I think Wardo meant to get grass growing...not really fertilizing.  Believe me, Pennard has no problem with drainage. The problem is retaining a sufficient amount of water to grow healthy grass.  Its not really an issue for me because I have no problem moving the ball when times are very bad.  The greens could be better.  They nearly always roll better than they look, but are never remotely fast. 


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Dunfanaghy, Fraserburgh, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
When Volume 2 of The Confidential Guide was released, I did an interview [perhaps the very one on this forum, I'm not sure] where someone asked me what course I'd most like to restore, and I volunteered Bel Air.


As it turned out, there are several members of Bel Air whom I know, who saw that, and so I was asked to come and explain myself.

I would most like to restore Sunningdale New, Pine Valley and/or Commonwealth.


I stuck to courses in Volume 2 with my answer.  Who knows where I'll get hired once the next volume comes out?  ;)

Peter Pallotta

I'm struck by the beauty (and finality) of simplicity.

On Pennard: 2 threads and a half-dozen pages of posts on a variety of related topics/issues/questions.  On Bel Air:  2 posts. That's it. And why? I'd say because of this: "I've told them that my basic philosophy about the course will be to restore every feature back to the way it was in Thomas' day, unless there is a specific reason not to do something in particular." What's there more to say, or to ask? 


« Last Edit: January 31, 2016, 02:54:43 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Jon Wiggett

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Jon


As I wrote earlier, I think Wardo meant to get grass growing...not really fertilizing.  Believe me, Pennard has no problem with drainage. The problem is retaining a sufficient amount of water to grow healthy grass.  Its not really an issue for me because I have no problem moving the ball when times are very bad.  The greens could be better.  They nearly always roll better than they look, but are never remotely fast. 


Ciao

Sean,

I thought that 'Wardo' meant fertiliser because he said fertiliser however you might be correct. As for the greens, a big problem these days is players often do not look at how putting surfaces actually play but rather more on the colour. This is a problem that golf will have to address in the future. As for the speed, fast or slow is less important than if the speed is appropriate for the contours of the green.

Jon

Rhydian Lewis

Re: Tom Doak "Retained to Rework" Pennard (Wales) and Woodhall Spa (England)
« Reply #63 on: February 02, 2016, 08:33:26 AM »

Thomas on the subject of the synthetic bunker revetting They've done one bunker on the 9th at St Enodoch and I'm undecided whether I like it or not. I can see the benefits of not having to redo it after several years.
 And although it has a build up of algae it still stands out

Ben
My first post on Golf Club Atlas. The bunker on 9 at St Enodoc is indeed a synthetic revetment. This was built by the green staff at St Enodoc following a project carried out by 'DURAbunker' to renovate 3 bunkers on the practice area. I personally built the initial 3 bunkers with colleagues from the company I founded in 2014 'DURAbunker'. The club is now working with us to renovate bunkers on 'The Hollywell' course which contains some of the original holes that Braid designed. There is on going-discussion regarding the Church Course.

I think your comment regarding it standing out is absolutely right, however I think a newly built and prestine natural sod revetment would also stand out given that the majority of bunkers on The Church are a number of years past their last re-build date (or at least were the last time we visited). We have carried out synthetic revetment on a number of courses wall to wall, one thing is for sure, using this approach bunkers will be very consistent in look. The debate is whether this is a good thing or not and the answer I believe lies in the personal flavour of the individual and more importantly the natural surrounding landscape of the course.

The practical and economical reality though for courses such as St Enodoc and Royal North Devon just up the road, who we are also working with on a full course bunker renovation, sits under an entirely different light and has, certainly in more recent times, had to be taken into account when debating any change or renovation work.

Rhydian Lewis

Re: Tom Doak "Retained to Rework" Pennard (Wales) and Woodhall Spa (England)
« Reply #64 on: February 02, 2016, 08:46:12 AM »
I fear for Pennard's 16th green  :'(  I can't think of any other greens which are remotely troublesome for slope because the greens don't get quick.


Tom - I still think you should get involved in building a wee par 3 course on the land beyond 1 & 2. 


Ciao


I have played Pennard many times having lived in Swansea and grown up in the South Wales valleys playing competitive and team golf around the area. I have an accute interest in the work at Pennard due to the recent synthetic bunkering going in there but on the issue of the 16th green,I specifically remember hitting a 3 wood left to right in there in a tight 1st team county match a few years ago. It was a stunning evening and almost an ethereal looking approach shot. I knew the green and we were 1 down in the match at the time so I knew I have to shape a shot in there (a draw for me as a lefty). I hit the perfect shot, one of those perfect golfing moments and drew it in there to around 15 feet.

The problem was the flag was cut on the top right of the green, my partner put me past the hole following our eagle put and we walked off with a 7 and lost the hole. It was just an impossible pin due to the gradient of the green and the dry conditions of Summer. The perfect golfing moment was somewhat soured and though I would like the characteristics of that green to remain, maybe a little 'softening' would make it fitting of the golf hole a little more!!

David_Tepper

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Rhydian Lewis

Re: Tom Doak "Retained to Rework" Pennard (Wales) and Woodhall Spa (England)
« Reply #66 on: February 02, 2016, 09:30:04 AM »
I think the synthetic revetting just looks too thin. You kinda need the turf to 2" thick and the astro turf is 3/4". But I suppose that's not really a sensible reason why not to like it.

Adrian

The question of thickness (or more accurately thinness) of the synthetic look is a really interesting one, some guys prefer thick others thin, Royal North Devon for example, who we are currently working with on a full course renovation prefer the thinner look, it's really a personal flavour.

I've tried attaching photo's but keep getting error message (will try again later) s of synthetic bunkers at Tennessee National (Greg Norman Design) some of which I built personally, using what we call the 'Double Stack' method which we used for the first time anywhere at St Enodoc a few weeks prior. The double stack look is probably more in line with the thickness of a traditional natural revetment.

The choice of materials to build traditional sod wall bunkers was very limited. So thick sod would have been harvested to carry out this task. As you rightly say there is no hard and fast rule about thickness of revetment and with the advent of newer construction materials the question of how we make bunker construction more sustainable is a 'natural' evolution. I'm a traditionalist and I love the look of a natural turf revetment, love it!! But for many courses it just isn't viable or sustainable, some are filling bunkers in, some are converting from revetted to roll in or sand splashed, in some cases I think that's a real shame.

As a footnote I believe we've spoken in the past when the original company I co-founded 'Envirosports' brought the product to market as 'Envirobunker'. Lots has happened since then with 2 new successor companies being formed 'DURAbunker' and 'Ecobunker' and this thread is proving very interesting reading for me personally!!

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Doak "Retained to Rework" Pennard (Wales) and Woodhall Spa (England)
« Reply #67 on: February 02, 2016, 09:39:29 AM »
Rhydian,


First off, welcome to the site. Good to see another member of the profession on here to keep us wannabees in check.


From a market point of view, do you see your product catching on in a big way on inland courses that wouldn't traditionally have used revetted bunkers too much if at all, or do you see it mainly see your business on traditional links ?


Niall

Rhydian Lewis

Re: Tom Doak "Retained to Rework" Pennard (Wales) and Woodhall Spa (England)
« Reply #68 on: February 02, 2016, 10:21:58 AM »
The suggestion for altering the 5th bunker was mine. Even though Tom hadn’t had the opportunity to visit until last week, Pennard have been keen to push-on with things. Those two pots were very penal – both walking into them, and playing out. It seemed that extending the rear bunker a touch closer towards the tee, while also tapering it out slightly, with the remainder filled as a shallow hollow would help.  That the green complex wasn’t original made the recommendation easier.

Apart from two days that I spent trying to get to grips with the ‘ecobunker’ at the start of the process back in October, neither of us have been on site to guide the details. These bunkers have lifespan of 20 years plus (no one really knows yet, of course)...bringing the cost savings, but locks things in from an artistic perspective! They plan on spreading the bunker work out of three years, tackling the most problematic ones this winter.

If the anticipated economics ring true, I wouldn’t be surprised to see quite a few more courses in the UK follow suit!


Clyde
There are a number of courses in the UK, Europe and US following suit either with 'Ecobunker' or 'DURAbunker', both are successor companies of the original company that brought the product to market as 'Envirobunker'.  There are a variety of reasons these courses are making the move to synthetic but without a doubt the primary driver is cost and maintenance savings over the lifetime of the product.

Tom is absolutely right, we don't really know how long our synthetic bunkers will last but we do know that the research carried out on the material used suggests it will be 200 (two hundred years) before it begins to break down when buried. What's really obvious though is that the shaping and design work becomes even more important and crucial (if that were possible) and I write from a course just outside London where I am currently advising on the shaping work at the outset of a full course bunker renovation using synthetic bunkers edge (on an inland course). There are huge time savings to me made on edging work alone.

The difficulty as has been suggested, is that many clubs want to save on costs by getting their own staff to construct the bunkers (far more popular option here in UK than in rest of Europe and certainly the US). This means that we have a tough balancing act between supporting courses in this key aspect of the project (as well as others) and keeping costs within budget. Not easy!!

Even the most traditional of British Links such as Royal North Devon (Westward Ho!!) are now renovating all their bunkers using the synthetic method and whereas Pennard is working with Ecobunker, RNDGC is working with DURAbunker.  Tiburon GC, Naples, Tennessee National GC, Medalist etc have all used synthetic bunkers working with one company or the other and there are now probably more inland courses than links working with synthetic edges so I hope for both companies sakes that the trend continues!! In the meantime I'll keep myself in check as I am accutely aware as a newbee on the forum that is exactly that a 'forum' though I will probably try to balance out some posts regarding the product and it's origins for the sake of clarity and balance.

Hope the work at Pennard goes well for you and Ecobunker.
Rhydian,


First off, welcome to the site. Good to see another member of the profession on here to keep us wannabees in check.


From a market point of view, do you see your product catching on in a big way on inland courses that wouldn't traditionally have used revetted bunkers too much if at all, or do you see it mainly see your business on traditional links ?


Niall

Thanks for the welcome Niall - I love the site and have been following for some time so great to be part of it!!

I'm really aware of not abusing the forum in any way so I will tread carefully and answer questions as impartially as possible. The truth is when we first established the original company back in 2010 (Envirosports Ltd) we were aiming at Links courses, but as the product developed and we came up with a few different construction methods / designs and as we learnt more about some of the issues all courses were facing, it became apparent to us that inland courses could also benefit from the product. It was unfortunate that the original company split into two in 2014 but both successor companies have had success since that time and continue to grow.

I am currently writing from Winter Hill GC just outside London, a classic 'Inland / Parkland' course with gentle rolling landscape typical of many inland courses in the UK. We are using the product to edge bunkers along with our synthetic liner. The combination of liner (whichever type - we have worked with Capillary Concrete, Blinder Bunker Liner. BunkerMat etc) and synthetic edge forms what we call a 'Fully Sealed Bunker' with both base and edge taken care of and no points of weakness. As I just posted the savings on edging work alone are huge, our clients have done some analaysis on this facet alone and the numbers are really good reading for us. Added to that the fact that the bunkers on this course have excessive amounts of stone means sealing the edges as well as taking care of the base is critical. The argument from a design point of view is that revetment doesn't belong on a parkland course, Heathland yes, Parkland, maybe not so much. My own opionion is that by shaping and sizing bunkers appropriately and building a synthetic revetted 'edge' that seals the bunker rather than giving it a look of a links style revetment is perfectly acceptable on the majority of inland courses. At the risk of re-itteration, the reality for many of these courses dictates that  they have to explore better and more sustainable methods of building bunkers and maybe a slight change of style is a very small price to pay, one that most average club members wouldn't even bat an eyelid at. Deep pot bunkers on an Parkland course, that's a little more debateable.

Clyde has made the point that there is maybe a limiting factor in terms of artistry which I understand but we are continually pushing the product and have built all styles and shapes of bunker with it and of course if you get it right another benefit is that the integrity of the design will not be compromised over time by natural erosion, animal damage, edging, general wear and tear etc. Some architects are really picking up on this, we work with Pierre Fulke in Sweden (former Ryder Cup Player) and have a project in the pipeline that will use the product on a style of bunker not yet tried, again on an inland course so it's continually evolving. Statistically I believe more inland courses than links courses have used the product (though of course the ratio is heavily in favour of inland courses). In fact we are in the process of renovating bunkers at a course called Frosaker Country Club in Sweden with Pierre where there are a number of pot bunkers. We are demolishing the pots and creat much bigger bunkers with sweeping sand faces and a revetted edge. Given the revetment is more than an 'Edge' in places but it is more of a hybrid between a links style and traditional parkland style which the owner loves.

I'm wary of posting photo's of our work on a forum and when I did try I got an error message anyway, maybe there was a message there!! Happy to try answering any questions though as subjectively as possible.

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Doak "Retained to Rework" Pennard (Wales) and Woodhall Spa (England)
« Reply #69 on: February 02, 2016, 10:26:52 AM »
An interesting trend that may have an impact here is that a number of architects have been constructing bunkers  on inland courses with two or three layers of revet to form the edge in recent years. I know a couple of people who are quite pleased with this technique and look, and it would make perfect sense to use synthetic here.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Doak "Retained to Rework" Pennard (Wales) and Woodhall Spa (England)
« Reply #70 on: February 02, 2016, 11:14:26 AM »
An interesting trend that may have an impact here is that a number of architects have been constructing bunkers  on inland courses with two or three layers of revet to form the edge in recent years. I know a couple of people who are quite pleased with this technique and look, and it would make perfect sense to use synthetic here.

Do you like that look, Adam?

I think it a fine way of using less sod whilst creating an edge and allowing short grass with gathering contours to surround green side or centre line bunkering.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Doak "Retained to Rework" Pennard (Wales) and Woodhall Spa (England)
« Reply #71 on: February 03, 2016, 07:50:01 PM »
I fear for Pennard's 16th green  :'(  I can't think of any other greens which are remotely troublesome for slope because the greens don't get quick.


Tom - I still think you should get involved in building a wee par 3 course on the land beyond 1 & 2. 


Ciao


I have played Pennard many times having lived in Swansea and grown up in the South Wales valleys playing competitive and team golf around the area. I have an accute interest in the work at Pennard due to the recent synthetic bunkering going in there but on the issue of the 16th green,I specifically remember hitting a 3 wood left to right in there in a tight 1st team county match a few years ago. It was a stunning evening and almost an ethereal looking approach shot. I knew the green and we were 1 down in the match at the time so I knew I have to shape a shot in there (a draw for me as a lefty). I hit the perfect shot, one of those perfect golfing moments and drew it in there to around 15 feet.

The problem was the flag was cut on the top right of the green, my partner put me past the hole following our eagle put and we walked off with a 7 and lost the hole. It was just an impossible pin due to the gradient of the green and the dry conditions of Summer. The perfect golfing moment was somewhat soured and though I would like the characteristics of that green to remain, maybe a little 'softening' would make it fitting of the golf hole a little more!!


So...your partner putted above the hole chasing an eagle?  If the result bothers you, avoid Ross courses at all costs  8)


Sure, there aren't many hole locations on 16, but does every green need more than 4? 


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Dunfanaghy, Fraserburgh, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Doak "Retained to Rework" Pennard (Wales) and Woodhall Spa (England)
« Reply #72 on: February 03, 2016, 09:48:47 PM »
I fear for Pennard's 16th green  :'(  I can't think of any other greens which are remotely troublesome for slope because the greens don't get quick.


Tom - I still think you should get involved in building a wee par 3 course on the land beyond 1 & 2. 


Ciao


I have played Pennard many times having lived in Swansea and grown up in the South Wales valleys playing competitive and team golf around the area. I have an accute interest in the work at Pennard due to the recent synthetic bunkering going in there but on the issue of the 16th green,I specifically remember hitting a 3 wood left to right in there in a tight 1st team county match a few years ago. It was a stunning evening and almost an ethereal looking approach shot. I knew the green and we were 1 down in the match at the time so I knew I have to shape a shot in there (a draw for me as a lefty). I hit the perfect shot, one of those perfect golfing moments and drew it in there to around 15 feet.

The problem was the flag was cut on the top right of the green, my partner put me past the hole following our eagle put and we walked off with a 7 and lost the hole. It was just an impossible pin due to the gradient of the green and the dry conditions of Summer. The perfect golfing moment was somewhat soured and though I would like the characteristics of that green to remain, maybe a little 'softening' would make it fitting of the golf hole a little more!!


So...your partner putted above the hole chasing an eagle?  If the result bothers you, avoid Ross courses at all costs  8)


Sure, there aren't many hole locations on 16, but does every green need more than 4? 


Ciao


The world needs more par 5's(and greens) like 16 at Pennard.
That green is very severe-agreed-I admit I was a bit confounded, but I also had a 5 iron for my second shot.Sounds easy, but unless shaped properly, it's not staying on the green.


But it is indeed the slope on the green that inspired the creativity of the shot Rhydian played in.
As Sean says, the poorly planned putt by your partner shouldn't invalidate the hole-Obviously the other team found a way to handle it ;)


If green speeds need to be kept down to create a reasonable challenge, all the better.
never understand why we want to dumb down the architecture (cost) to smart up the maintenance (more cost) to make greens easier/more homogonized.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Tim Gallant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Doak "Retained to Rework" Pennard (Wales) and Woodhall Spa (England)
« Reply #73 on: December 15, 2016, 05:46:28 PM »
An article with Tom Doak on the current work taking place at Woodhall Spa:


http://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/2016/12/15/tom-doak-woodhall-spa-restoration/

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Doak "Retained to Rework" Pennard (Wales) and Woodhall Spa (England)
« Reply #74 on: December 15, 2016, 08:23:59 PM »
Great stuff,
I need to have another look soon and rethink my opinion.
Opening the course up should help a lot with what I felt was a lot of sameness on the back.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

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