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Jim_Kennedy

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A. W. Tillinghast - One "Hungry Mother"
« on: November 19, 2015, 07:23:04 PM »

Imagine what the modern golf landscape would look like if this plan had gone through.



« Last Edit: November 19, 2015, 07:25:30 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

MCirba

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Re: A. W. Tillinghast - One "Hungry Mother"
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2015, 07:57:06 PM »
Jim,

Terrific find.

If the revisionisthe history of Joe Burbeck designing Bethpage Black wasn't dead already that sure is another spike in the coffin.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Bill_McBride

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Re: A. W. Tillinghast - One "Hungry Mother"
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2015, 08:13:25 PM »
I have a series of books about Tillinghast's work for the PGA during the depression.  I don't know if any of the new courses were ever built, but he did tour the country surveying existing courses for ways to reduce maintenance costs and help to keep courses open.   Sadly a lot of this involved removing bunkers and other dumbing down.  I have no idea if those courses were restored to pre-war condition after WWII. 

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: A. W. Tillinghast - One "Hungry Mother"
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2015, 08:28:32 PM »
Mike,


I really hadn't thought of the article in that light, but after reading your post I re-read the GD story about Burbeck, Tillinghast, and Moses. 


The article and the GD story have similar narratives - WPA workers, Tillie as consultant, etc. ;)


http://www.golfdigest.com/story/bethpageblack_joeburbeckwhitten2002


The newspaper article doesn't do much in the way of advocating for Tillie, save mentioning him designing Bethpage. That bit of information can be found in numerous other locations.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Phil Young

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Re: A. W. Tillinghast - One "Hungry Mother"
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2015, 07:18:34 AM »
I'm sitting here recovering from cervical spinal fusion surgery with a tube through my chest into my stomach to feed me for a while as I'm unable to swallow properly yet, and I find this thread...  :)

Let's first get a better understanding of the proposed PGA program and Tilly's involvement.

The PGA Course Consultation Tour when started was never supposed to have lasted as long as it did. Jacobus & Tilly believed it would be 3-4 months; all in the PGA were stunned when it took on a dramatic life of its own with requests for Tilly to visit clubs around the country. The reason it ended in the fall of 1937 was because Tilly & his wife Lillian, who accompanied him throughout the entire Tour, was exhausted from the constant travel. He needed to set roots down once more for both of their sakes.

Tilly's deal with the PGA included that he would NOT do any of the design work for the club's he visited. That, for the most part, he would recommend local architects to each club that asked so that architects around the country could be put back to work. This didn't include clubs where he had ongoing relationships and was consulting with at that time. An example of this is SFGC. He stopped in on the club twice during his tour but because they were current clients he was able to provide them with the plans & oversight needed for whatever work that he recommended.

On the other hand, even if he visited clubs that he originally designed, if he wasn't actively working with them at the time he would recommend architects to the club. A good example of this was Brook Hollow. He recommended a young man named Perry Maxwell who would redesign the greens in 1937-9 and then rip out the putting surfaces and change the grass from Bermuda to Bent grass in 1940-41.

So the purpose of the new course initiatives was to put to work starving course architects throughout the country and not provide Tilly with hundreds of new clients. In fact, what was most likely the primary purpose which was quietly in the background, was to see the many PGA professionals who were out of work employed at these new clubs, thereby strengthening the organization and increasing very needed cash flow into the PGA.

In other words, it had the potential to be a win-win-win for many...

There were a number of course built through the WPA after this both with & without the help of the PGA. But by and large this initiative never got off the ground. For example, the Hungry Mother project only went so far as Tilly visiting the site, meeting with local engineers who would draw up the proposed course (Tilly was asked by Jacobus to do this design) and yet it stalled almost immediately as federal funds for the project simply weren't available. There were far too many open hands begging for funds to help industries and states with large number of unemployed workers that golf course and park projects, although worthy, were far from the top of those receiving the funds.

As for the true story behind the entire Bethpage Park project... I am currently on track to see my long overdue exhaustive history of Bethpage State Park and all 5 of the golf courses finished by late spring and hopefully on its way to the printer with a release of a limited edition only run of 1,000 copies before the Barclay's in August.

Every possible question one might have about Bethpage, the Black and all the other courses are explored and answered, as well as information about the upcoming PGA, Ryder Cup, relationship with the USGA and much more...     

MCirba

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Re: A. W. Tillinghast - One "Hungry Mother"
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2015, 07:48:43 AM »
Hope you're fully recovered soon Phil.  Thoughts and prayers for you.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Phil Young

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Re: A. W. Tillinghast - One "Hungry Mother"
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2015, 08:05:33 AM »
Thanks Mike, I'm just a good bit grumpy and desperate for a turkey club sandwich with potato salad on the side from a New York area Greek diner!

Matt Frey, PGA

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Re: A. W. Tillinghast - One "Hungry Mother"
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2015, 10:00:07 AM »
This reminds me of something a fellow PGA member brought up in the Open Forum during last week's 99th PGA Annual Meeting.

Bob Joyce, a PGA Life Member and the former longtime PGA head professional at Southampton (New York) Golf Club, discussed golf course closures, specifically important architectural sites.

He mentioned Island Hills on Long Island, a Tillinghast design, which will close permanently at the end of this year (I'm going to try very hard to get up there in the few days we have left in 2015) and a project called "Save Muny," which I believe is in reference to the Lions Municipal Golf Course in Austin, Texas.

Joyce proposed a notion of the PGA of America helping courses in danger of closing. His argument (and I think it's an interesting one that is rarely considered) is that if the PGA and its 28,000 men and women PGA Professionals do their job well in growing the game, we'll need more courses in the future. Instead of letting historically significant courses fall to the wayside and having to spend millions constructing new courses, why not keep the older ones afloat until the industry needs them?

Practical? Maybe not. However, I would agree with Joyce it would be interesting to consider, even from a facilitation standpoint.

To watch Joyce's remarks, click here or follow the URL below.

https://vimeo.com/145744872#t=5216s

Phil Young

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Re: A. W. Tillinghast - One "Hungry Mother"
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2015, 10:56:37 AM »
Matt,

A couple of the members at IsIand Hills contacted me this past summer to see if anything might be done to stop the sale. Unfortunately the Board had the discretion to make the deal and enough of the members are behind it... I'm hoping that an effort can be made to save the club's records (board minutes, documents, correspondences, photographs, memorabilia, etc...) as their is a great value both historically and financially in those, but especially for one who wants to study Tilly's work.

I met Bob Joyce far too many years ago. He knew my brother Steve quite well...

Mike Policano

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Re: A. W. Tillinghast - One "Hungry Mother"
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2015, 11:05:44 AM »
George Jacobus was The Ridgewood Country Club's head pro from 1919 to 1967 when he died suddenly of a heart attack.


He was responsible for keeping Tillie employed by the PGA for a couple of years in the early '30's. He was also responsible for the 1935 Ryder Cup being held at Ridgewood.

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: A. W. Tillinghast - One "Hungry Mother"
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2015, 12:43:09 PM »

Bob Joyce, a PGA Life Member and the former longtime PGA head professional at Southampton (New York) Golf Club, discussed golf course closures, specifically important architectural sites.

To watch Joyce's remarks, click here or follow the URL below.

https://vimeo.com/145744872#t=5216s




Joyce's remarks are about one minute long and they begin at 1:26:56


I'm pretty sure he meant Daniel Wexler's books, not Rick Reilly's, and I wonder just how different it is today for a course like Island Hills vs. a course like Mackenzie's Bayside GC in Queens. The residential/commercial density that surrounds IH has made its property extremely valuable, I'd guess that the built-out worth is in the hundreds of millions of dollars. Same scenario nearly a century ago.


It's too bad when well designed courses close, but what's worse is when those courses that close are the "Mom and Pop" or muni that serves the general public.


Those courses were the engines that drove public participation in the game. Save them, it'll be less expensive and more rewarding. 
« Last Edit: November 20, 2015, 01:03:36 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Matt Frey, PGA

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Re: A. W. Tillinghast - One "Hungry Mother"
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2015, 03:10:52 PM »
Jim: You may be correct about the author mixup.


Well said on the public access courses. I agree with you completely. I am going to do a little more investigating on this subject in the coming months and see what types of "best practices" I can turn up.

Matt Frey, PGA

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Re: A. W. Tillinghast - One "Hungry Mother"
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2015, 03:30:30 PM »
A couple of the members at Island Hills contacted me this past summer to see if anything might be done to stop the sale. Unfortunately the Board had the discretion to make the deal and enough of the members are behind it... I'm hoping that an effort can be made to save the club's records (board minutes, documents, correspondences, photographs, memorabilia, etc...) as their is a great value both historically and financially in those, but especially for one who wants to study Tilly's work.


Phil: If I make it up to Island Hills before it closes, I'll be sure to ask about the club's plan for their historical documents and photos (if they are still in known existence). My guess an old board member may take a lot of it, but since the course is going to seed, there could be a very real (and disappointing) chance that everything could be tossed.

Phil Young

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Re: A. W. Tillinghast - One "Hungry Mother"
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2015, 05:33:24 PM »
Matt,

I would greatly appreciate that as I'm not able to travel until after the new year...

These are things that should be donated to the Tillinghast Association archives.

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: A. W. Tillinghast - One "Hungry Mother"
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2015, 07:44:56 PM »

I don't think Tillinghast, and especially Jacobus, stood much of a chance in trying to control the direction of funding, not with all the New Deal projects that were going on.
https://livingnewdeal.org/

The golf list:
https://livingnewdeal.org/?s=golf&submit=Search

Austin Muni, mentioned by Bob Joyce in the PGA clip
https://livingnewdeal.org/projects/lions-municipal-golf-course-improvements-austin-tx/
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Mike_Trenham

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Re: A. W. Tillinghast - One "Hungry Mother"
« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2015, 08:18:30 PM »
Very interesting that Tillinghast was not permitted to do the design work he recommended.  For a long time at my club we just assumed he designed our ninth hole.  It would be interesting to dig further on who did the design work.
Proud member of a Doak 3.

Phil Young

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Re: A. W. Tillinghast - One "Hungry Mother"
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2015, 10:19:29 PM »
Mike,

Let me explain it a little better. Tilly wasn't permitted to go beyond what he could do for the club he visited that day. ON many, many visits he left drawings that he made on site of his recommendations. If he felt that an architect was needed to carry out those recommendations he then gave them suggestions as to who they should use.

If the recommendations required extensive design drawings then this would be done by the architect the club would hire for the job.

Although it can be a bit boring, if one takes some time to rad through a fair number of Tilly's letters to the PGA they will see all of the above and get a much better understanding of just how monumental, and I use that word purposefully, an accomplishment his PGA Course Consultation Tour was. Name an architect today who would consider visiting more than 250 courses in a single year to advise, consult, draw, recommend and then to report back to a central organization every night... And he drove every inch of the journey in his own car...

Mike, what club do you belong to?

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