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Sean_A

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Re: Confidential Guide v2 Discussion Thread - Spoilers Ahead
« Reply #25 on: October 08, 2015, 03:56:07 AM »

The two I would most quibble with is Old Town at 7, and Musgrove Mill at 6, which only Ran saw.  These are both 11s!!!


I love Old Town and would count it comfortably among my top 10 favourites, but I too have it at 7.  I can see it possibly rising to 8 if I knew it better and a bit more work was carried out. 


Carl


I didn't realize that 16 was widely criticized.  Its a pretty straight forward butt puckering lay-up hole. For me, the green on 15 is a lot more controversial (in fact the 15th in general).  How bout the crazy 17th where we walk straight back up the hill for hill for 18  >:( Or the lay-up option on #11 :o Or the stupid tree covering the bunker on #12 :'(

For sure, TR is not without serious flaws, but at least the man had a go at something special. 


Ciao
« Last Edit: October 08, 2015, 04:22:38 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Dunfanaghy, Fraserburgh, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Carl Rogers

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Re: Confidential Guide v2 Discussion Thread - Spoilers Ahead
« Reply #26 on: October 08, 2015, 07:12:13 AM »
Sean & et al,
Dormie:  Are you surprised at the ratings in the CG (mostly 7's)?  On previous threads, both us of were a less than enthusiastic about the par 5's.  Tom praises the par 5, 17th hole, which for me is very awkward hole.  Also, the course distances from the forward to back tees are a bit incongruous.  The 18th hole off the tee would have to be a lay up for big hitters given the cross fairway waste bunker.
 .... what I learned from those previous Dormie threads is that I need to play the combination tees.  Part of what clouds my opinion of the course is the hard walk (I want to walk the course and I am dragging the last few holes).  Never the less, I will go back and continue to play it.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2015, 07:16:32 AM by Carl Rogers »
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Sean_A

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Re: Confidential Guide v2 Discussion Thread - Spoilers Ahead
« Reply #27 on: October 08, 2015, 08:49:50 AM »
Sean & et al,
Dormie:  Are you surprised at the ratings in the CG (mostly 7's)?  On previous threads, both us of were a less than enthusiastic about the par 5's.  Tom praises the par 5, 17th hole, which for me is very awkward hole.  Also, the course distances from the forward to back tees are a bit incongruous.  The 18th hole off the tee would have to be a lay up for big hitters given the cross fairway waste bunker.
 .... what I learned from those previous Dormie threads is that I need to play the combination tees.  Part of what clouds my opinion of the course is the hard walk (I want to walk the course and I am dragging the last few holes).  Never the less, I will go back and continue to play it.


Carl


No, I would give Dormie a 7, but I wouldn't praise the 17th or the 5s in general...very awkward set pointed with some poor design...weakest part of the course except for the walk.  Maybe if the walk was much better I could go as high as 8.  I like Dormie, but am not terribly fond...still, its a great course.  I would like to play it again, but on some sort of deal...the normal fee is too high for thin wallet. Luckily, there are some very good deals to be had on packages.


Ciao

New plays planned for 2024: Dunfanaghy, Fraserburgh, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Chris Cupit

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Re: Confidential Guide v2 Discussion Thread - Spoilers Ahead
« Reply #28 on: October 10, 2015, 08:19:43 AM »
My copy was waiting for me after I got back from the Mid-Am and I was extremely surprised and pleased to see that my club (Rivermont) had been included :D   I really appreciate the write up and hope the course continues to evolve and improve.  Thanks so much.


I was intrigued to see which holes got a nice shout out too.  I'm especially pleased that 13 green was so well received by DO.  It was my favorite change in the renovation.

David_Elvins

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Re: Confidential Guide v2 Discussion Thread - Spoilers Ahead
« Reply #29 on: October 10, 2015, 10:01:11 AM »
What numbers did Tobacco Rd get?

Presume I disagree with them.
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Jason Connor

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Re: Confidential Guide v2 Discussion Thread - Spoilers Ahead
« Reply #30 on: October 10, 2015, 10:35:43 AM »
What numbers did Tobacco Rd get?

Presume I disagree with them.


Assuming it's ok to answer such questions here -- though you should go buy the books!  Definitely worth giving up a round of golf to do so.


Tobacco Road made the "Gourmet Choice" section -- one of 18 courses in this volume to do so, and 1 of 15 in the southern USA.


The ratings were  7 7 6 7 with Masa being the 6.



We discovered that in good company there is no such thing as a bad golf course.  - James Dodson

Carl Rogers

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Re: Confidential Guide v2 Discussion Thread - Spoilers Ahead
« Reply #31 on: October 11, 2015, 10:28:59 AM »
Now that I have had a chance to play several courses in the CG vol 2 that are '7''s (Holston Hills, Dormie, Mid Pines, Tobacco Road), I wonder how many accessible '8's & '9's there are in the eastern half of the US within a one day drive of Virginia??  Is Ballyhack an '8'?


I have been to Bandon ... I wonder what Bandon Trails will be?  Is Pacific Dunes a '10'?  Could I recognize a '10?


In vol 3, I wonder grade Tom will give himself for Riverfront?


I am going to have to break down and play Pinehurst No. 2 in the off season in a month.
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Ryan Taylor

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Re: Confidential Guide v2 Discussion Thread - Spoilers Ahead
« Reply #32 on: October 11, 2015, 10:48:17 AM »
Were the Old Town rankings based on pre or post renovation visit? I still have a hard time understanding the 7 8 6 - ranking w/o more information. It pains me to see the course in the fifth grouping on page 246. Did Masa really enjoy Southern Hills (Maxwell) 7 8 7 6 more than Old Town? What was the rationale behind his higher score? I'm curious as I've never played Southern Hills and would like to learn more.
"Bandon is like Chamonix for skiers or the North Shore of Oahu for surfers,” Rogers said. “It is where those who really care end up."

Sean_A

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Re: Confidential Guide v2 Discussion Thread - Spoilers Ahead
« Reply #33 on: October 12, 2015, 08:27:51 AM »
As I suggested on the Dornoch thread, great is great and the Doak number isn't something to get boged down by.  However, Old Town to me is clearly great; despite the great fun TR is...it is not a great course.  TR is a great statement of how bold and creative architecture can be, but its not great.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Dunfanaghy, Fraserburgh, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Mark Bourgeois

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Re: Confidential Guide v2 Discussion Thread - Spoilers Ahead
« Reply #34 on: October 12, 2015, 10:57:05 AM »
First, thanks for taking time to reply.



1)  We are all traveling on our own dime and we all have day jobs, so our ability to go back and see every course again to keep reviews fresh is limited by reality.  I have not changed too many grades in the book without seeing a course again, but I did ask around a bit about Rockport's condition and the reports were not encouraging.  The drop in grade is also reflective of the fact that Bill Coore has built many better courses since then, making Rockport somewhat less newsworthy than it was in 1988 or 1996.


Second, I object to this line of reasoning. Forget who designed it, this is a course people should see. For one thing, development courses don't get architecture like this, even / especially in the decades since it was built. You can't say that about Sand Hills.

The course is a library of some of the more remarkable features and concepts of old courses. Lion's Mouth, massive convex bunkers: who takes chances like this? And how many such features survive the decades?

The course is worth study because it it short by today's standards yet no pushover. It regularly hosts regional event and does well. Add in the wind -- Rockport is one of the windiest coastal areas in the Continental US -- and it's fun.

To be clear, I am not commenting on the number.  5-6 feels about right (at least by the original CG standards).  I wish the 'panel' put the time in to see it. It's an hour from Wolf Point, which is already a time-consuming location to get to (and worth it). I feel this is a 'blue box' course. (Yes, I know it's not my book.) People should see it.
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Sam Morrow

Re: Confidential Guide v2 Discussion Thread - Spoilers Ahead
« Reply #35 on: October 12, 2015, 11:08:00 AM »
Mark,

Sadly I think you and I are the Rockport fan club.

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