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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Why is Friar's Head not a Doak 10?
« Reply #50 on: September 19, 2015, 09:24:02 PM »
Joel,

My choice would be NGLA, but that doesn't mean that its neighbor,  Shinnecock, isn't a 10

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Why is Friar's Head not a Doak 10?
« Reply #51 on: September 19, 2015, 09:42:07 PM »
Joel,

My choice would be NGLA, but that doesn't mean that its neighbor,  Shinnecock, isn't a 10


Well they both are in my book.

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Friar's Head not a Doak 10?
« Reply #52 on: September 20, 2015, 01:24:33 AM »
You don't need to make a case or defend Friars Head as being great.  Because it is. Plain and simple.


Mac:

Notice I didn't say FH isn't a great course. I just said nobody made the case in this thread.

A bunch of golf architecture junkies and nobody has made the case.

Interesting.

Tim

Friars Head makes the case for itself, starting with the routing.

The course transitions from the dunes to the flats to the dunes to flats and finally back to the dunes in wonderful fashion.

There's not a weak hole on the golf course.

The par 5's, perhaps the hardest holes to design, are outstanding.

The par 3's are good with # 10 being an outstanding par 3.

The par 4's are diverse and very strong.

As I stated, the terrain, routing and individual holes are outstanding.

Did I mention the putting surfaces ?

They are outstanding with more than ample contour, shape and slope.

Friars Head passes my ultimate test, in that I want to go straight to the first tee as I walk off the 18th green.


Pat,


Nice to see someone actually take a shot a defining what makes FH so special. But, I have to disagree with your comment that Friars Head "makes the case for itself".


Isn't it in the spirit of this discussion group (or perhaps the entire site) for the writer to make the case for the course?
Tim Weiman

Tommy Naccarato

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Friar's Head not a Doak 10?
« Reply #53 on: September 20, 2015, 09:44:54 AM »
Tim,


As you and I have discussed so many times in our many conversations both on the phone and in person, the subject of golf course architecture is so vast and large. You've taught me a great deal in those conversations of just how one needs to express themselves and I'm going to do my best to express myself here, granted my opinion is jaded and biased and as always, I have no problem admitting it that I do play favorites when it comes to Friar's Head and its all because of of the unique kinship I have with this special place.  Much like St. Andrews, The National Golf Links of America, Rustic Canyon and Santa Anita Golf Course, I fit to these places like a glove and as I drive into these places, my heart beats with anticipation and excitement.  I'm at my best as a person when I'm at these special places, and when it comes to Friar's Head, its both a blessing and a curse to know this course with such intimacy--most of my rounds out there have ben played when there was not a single soul out there with exception to myself-it was just me and this holy ground.  Overdramatic's?  Why yes!  I allow myself that as it is the best way to describe something you love so much, yet my curse is that I have to think about it from afar and think about it often because of not being able to be with it everyday being that it competes with my other mistress, Los Angeles. Home.  A place I love equally as well!


But enough about me, more about the golf course!


I agree with Pat and that the routing of Friar's Head speaks for itself, simply because it would take a deaf, dumb and blind person not see how special the place really is on one trip only!  This is no ordinary land and in some cases it would take a filmmakers imagination to understand what this land has been through; how it was created; how it got its name; the generations of one family that owned it, farmed it, hunted on it and even relaxed on it during hot summer days while picnicking on the beach.  when your out there viewing or playing the entire course or the first time you see where one architect took days, weeks, months walking the land trying to figure out how he could make it work as a golf course with not a template used to guide or help him, because each of the golf holes at Friar's Head is unique to themselves that work for that initial routing, plus he was given the ability to refine, which is a very important word in golf course architecture.


From the first tee to the last green, you experience the very essence of what this land is about and yolk cover its history I was describing early while playing it.  There is no repetition at Friar's Head, at least none that I have ever found.  There might be a repetitive use of go-to shots that work best for a golfer, but that's on the golfer, not the land because in each instance each shot requirement is different on every hole.  I love to get into talk about the one shot holes on this course, because most that have a critique about the course seem to not think very highly of the 4th and 12th holes, when it in fact, they are brilliant.  ALL of the par 3's are of different character which is what GREAT one-shot holes should be all about  Everyone of them plays in a different direction uses different land; plays at different elevations with their varying lengths and most to greens that have more varying and different character similar to a Stanley Kubrick movie!


As stated about the par 5's--it is so hard to design a great par 5, but Friar's Head does it four times! And, in each instance, the challenge presented is unique for each shot.  Regarding the two-shot holes, all of them are of varying character-and most creativity, as some of them using God's hand and others being created by the hand of man in the lower "potato field" holes, which may even be the best holes on the course from a competition standpoint.


I'm going to close here and just say that for me Friar's Head is a "10" and it has nothing to do with the amount of people in the dining room nor how well one can't remember golf holes as good as these ;)
« Last Edit: September 20, 2015, 10:01:51 AM by Tommy Naccarato »

Peter Pallotta

Re: Why is Friar's Head not a Doak 10?
« Reply #54 on: September 20, 2015, 10:40:08 AM »
Tommy - for me, that's a particularly good post and a relevant one. Yes, you described/outlined the various "elements" (e.g. engaging par 5s, strong 3s, a variety of 4s etc); but your language and emotions suggest that you gave it a "10" -- for you -- for a range and sum total of personal and subjective "experience"; and that, to me, is as exactly it should be.
As you know, I have not played many great courses (only one that anyone would rate higher than a 5 o 6), and so my opinion on such matters means little. But the one "10" I've played is not for me a "10", even though it is for Tom D -- and while, like you, I'm sure that Tom could list all the "objective" reasons and architectural "elements" for him considering that course a 10, I'd suggest that there are very real -- and very subjective/experiential -- factors involved in that number as well.
Peter

Gib_Papazian

Re: Why is Friar's Head not a Doak 10?
« Reply #55 on: September 20, 2015, 12:46:50 PM »
I’ll agree in principle with the Big Man here - the caveat being I’m seemingly the only person on this board who has never been to Sand Hills, despite spending a day and evening with Dick Youngscap in Hawaii - after playing The Plantation.

Some years back, Goodale wrote me a lengthy email asserting that Friar’s Head was superior to NGLA because the course had no obvious flaws - and the putting surface contours were actually superior to the kingdom under the Magic Windmill.

I’m not sure I would go that far, but my father - who saw it all twice - had to be talked out of joining Friar’s Head (by Mom - cooler heads prevailed). This was before the clubhouse was built and the “pro shop” was in a temporary pre-fab. We started on (I think) the 6th hole, so I have never been quite clear on the pacing.

When I think it through (putting aside the gaping hole in my resume), of the 12 or so C&C courses I have played, Friar’s Head sits at #2. What puts it at a legitimate “9” is the course avoids the one Achilles heel endemic to most of their work: an awkward, convoluted par-5. I can hear the shrieks from the fanboys, but them be the facts.

#14 at Cuscowilla, #16 at Bandon Trails, #18 at Saguaro, #9 at Kapalua - otherwise stunning achievements with an annoying, impossible hole. I might be accused of a bias against uphill par-5’s, but Petitioner’s “Exhibit A” is #18 at NGLA. I don’t absolutely hate #18 at Yale either, but there will be the inevitable j’accuse I have Bahto’s blinders on; #18 at Creek Club is like an after-dinner puke at the French Laundry, so I’m somewhat inoculated against the Kool-aid.

Tommy is correct, the set of par-5’s at Friar’s Head are in the comparative conversation with Muirfield (East Lothian, not Jack’s magnum opus) - which is the highest compliment I can muster this morning. The golf course also shrieks naked sex appeal and reminds me of Bandon Trails in the way it wanders through several environments seamlessly. Fantastic routing on the order of Cypress Point. No Joel (I can hear your snort of laughter), not with insanely beautiful cliff-to-cliff shots, but in the seamless way you might explore the land with a faithful dog.

What is my favorite C&C course, even beyond Friar’s Head?

Chechessee Creek.

Anybody agree?
« Last Edit: September 20, 2015, 04:33:00 PM by Gib Papazian »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Why is Friar's Head not a Doak 10?
« Reply #56 on: September 20, 2015, 02:01:37 PM »
Tim,


Some things, architecturally, are self evident.


Routings being one of them.


The routing of Friars Head, over that terrain is a 10 in itself.


Now, you have to evaluate the individual holes within the context of the terrain and routing.


As I stated, the par 5's are really outstanding.
Clearly a "10" group.


Ditto the par 4's.


As to the par 3's, # 10 is spectacular.
The other par 3's are very solid, not a weak hole in the bunch


Tommy's point regarding directional diversity is well taken.


In order for a golf course to be a "10", it's not necessary for every hole to be a "10"


Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Friar's Head not a Doak 10?
« Reply #57 on: September 20, 2015, 02:14:30 PM »
Tommy,


Nice to see you join the thread. I was wondering if that might happen.


As a reply, I see no problem with affection for a particular golf course and would have no worries about "bias". The real task here - if one wants to assign a course a lofty "10" - is describe what makes a course special and what makes it different.


Put another way, what would you say about a course if speaking to someone who has never seen the course or the property. Also, what would you say if the reader had no idea who the writer was or what his creditials were to write a course review.


It takes a gift!


Three people stand out. First, I have to credit Ran. His course reviews leave one feeling they have come to know the course even if one has never seen it. I think, also, that Ran manages to address both the GCA crowd - well traveled golf architecture junkies - and golfers who might not yet have had the good fortunate to travel widely, but have the bug to do so.


Tom Doak certainly deserves mention. The Confidential Guide is a classic and it is the antithesis of the coffee table book. It is about the writing not about pictures. More importantly, Tom resisted the frequent pattern of hole by hole descriptions. Instead, he focused on sharply addressing what what stands out about a golf course and, of course, with the Doak scale, how far out of one's way one should travel to see a course.


Finally, I have to mention Jim Finegan. Though he does include a fair amount of hole by hole descriptions, Finegan simply did it much better than anyone else. There is a love and passion that comes through that really does make you want to jump on a plane to follow in his footsteps.


But, back to Friars Head. My time there pales in comparison to yours, but it didn't take long to decide there were two main challenges for the architect:


1) how to tie the different parts of the property together?
2) how to make the holes on the less interesting land worthwhile holes?


Honestly, I didn't think too much about "repitition" and am happy to hear your assessment on that scale. Also, I gave no thought to the quality of the greens - I just assumed they would be very well done.


I did sense the Par 3s would all be different, even given the incomplete state of the course when I saw it. Also, I did sense the Par 5s might play an interest role from an overall routing perspective especially. It is more common, I think, to use Par 3s to transition from different parts of a property.


Would you agree this feature is something unique about Friars Head? Do I have that right?


Again, good to see you chime in. Hope all is well.


Tim
Tim Weiman

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Why is Friar's Head not a Doak 10?
« Reply #58 on: September 20, 2015, 04:45:53 PM »
Tim,


To better understand your perspective, how many times have you played Friars Head ?

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Friar's Head not a Doak 10?
« Reply #59 on: September 20, 2015, 05:29:28 PM »
Tim,


To better understand your perspective, how many times have you played Friars Head ?


Pat,


As I noted above, my time at Friars Head is limited to one visit for a couple hours during construction. That was sufficient to understand the character and uniqueness of the property and the importance of the routing plan  tying the different parts of the property together. It also was sufficient for me to concur with Tommy's comment about the lack of repitiveness in the layout of each hole.


Besides that, I was fortunate to see some of Ken Bakst's photography. It is some of the best documentation of a golf course I have seen. The black and white pictures, among other things, brilliantly capture the contour of the greens. Ken's pictures are simply fantastic.


One visit to a golf course during the construction phase is not sufficient to make distinctions when we are in the rare air of deciding between Doak scale 8 or higher. However, Friars Head scores very high points in my book based on the property. Based on my travels, it stands out as having its own unique character and that is one of the biggest reasons to jump on a plane, IMO.


Having said all that, I don't think even one site visit - much less playing a course multiple times - is critical to evaluating the quality of WRITING about any given course. To the contrary, not even seeing the golf course or the site might be an advantage in determining whether the author's description adequately captures the character of the course.


Being widely travelled and well read on golf architecture matters might be more important to evaluating the writing about a particular course than actually playing the course. Supposing, for instance, I had played Friars Head one hundred times and it was my favorite course in the world. Does that really lessen the challenge of producing a quality description of the course?


I don't think so. Golf architecture writing isn't easy.
Tim Weiman

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Friar's Head not a Doak 10?
« Reply #60 on: September 20, 2015, 11:39:13 PM »
I’ll agree in principle with the Big Man here - the caveat being I’m seemingly the only person on this board who has never been to Sand Hills, despite spending a day and evening with Dick Youngscap in Hawaii - after playing The Plantation.

Some years back, Goodale wrote me a lengthy email asserting that Friar’s Head was superior to NGLA because the course had no obvious flaws - and the putting surface contours were actually superior to the kingdom under the Magic Windmill.

I’m not sure I would go that far, but my father - who saw it all twice - had to be talked out of joining Friar’s Head (by Mom - cooler heads prevailed). This was before the clubhouse was built and the “pro shop” was in a temporary pre-fab. We started on (I think) the 6th hole, so I have never been quite clear on the pacing.

When I think it through (putting aside the gaping hole in my resume), of the 12 or so C&C courses I have played, Friar’s Head sits at #2. What puts it at a legitimate “9” is the course avoids the one Achilles heel endemic to most of their work: an awkward, convoluted par-5. I can hear the shrieks from the fanboys, but them be the facts.

#14 at Cuscowilla, #16 at Bandon Trails, #18 at Saguaro, #9 at Kapalua - otherwise stunning achievements with an annoying, impossible hole. I might be accused of a bias against uphill par-5’s, but Petitioner’s “Exhibit A” is #18 at NGLA. I don’t absolutely hate #18 at Yale either, but there will be the inevitable j’accuse I have Bahto’s blinders on; #18 at Creek Club is like an after-dinner puke at the French Laundry, so I’m somewhat inoculated against the Kool-aid.

Tommy is correct, the set of par-5’s at Friar’s Head are in the comparative conversation with Muirfield (East Lothian, not Jack’s magnum opus) - which is the highest compliment I can muster this morning. The golf course also shrieks naked sex appeal and reminds me of Bandon Trails in the way it wanders through several environments seamlessly. Fantastic routing on the order of Cypress Point. No Joel (I can hear your snort of laughter), not with insanely beautiful cliff-to-cliff shots, but in the seamless way you might explore the land with a faithful dog.

What is my favorite C&C course, even beyond Friar’s Head?

Chechessee Creek.

Anybody agree?


Gibby, Chechessee Creek might the most low key excellent course I've played, and reminded me in many ways of the wonderful belt of heathery courses south of London.   Still, I can't agree that it's in the same league as Friars Head, which I thought had some memorable holes where CCC is a series of one solid hole after another without one that rings your bell like 6, 7, 10, 14 or 15 at Friars Head. 

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Friar's Head not a Doak 10?
« Reply #61 on: September 21, 2015, 05:50:46 AM »

First, hardly anybody is qualified to opine on the routing.  One must be intimate with the project and the archies work on the project to have any sense of the why the routing is as it is.  Even then, I am not sure pronouncing a routing self evident is wise.  For the layman and outsider I can buy the idea of generally thinking the course uses the features pretty well or the walk is very good or there is little walking between greens and tees.  But for an outsider to declare a routing is self evident is for nearly everybody a very foolish thing to pronounce.

I have never been to Friars Head, but the subject of a 10 is always interesting.  I think Pietro is spot on with with a score for each individual.  The actual architecture can only take a golfer so far.  I actually think 9s and 10s are as much about one's relationship/understanding/admiration for a course as the excellent architecture. Whatever it is that makes people really fall hard for a course is the difference.  I have yet to come across a course like this, but I suspect the closest I have come is with North Berwick. 


On a more personal level and more importantly, I truly believe that all a course need be is good enough. Greatness in design is not the be all and end all of golf.  That is self evident when we prefer A to B even though we know that B is a better design.

Ciao
« Last Edit: September 21, 2015, 06:31:11 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

David Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Friar's Head not a Doak 10?
« Reply #62 on: September 21, 2015, 07:14:45 AM »

I'm going to close here and just say that for me Friar's Head is a "10" and it has nothing to do with the amount of people in the dining room nor how well one can't remember golf holes as good as these ;)




Tommy,


With all due respect, thanks for thinking of me in your closing arguments. However, just to be crystal clear, I had hoped that what I wrote was clear enough. I certainly did not and do not consider the clubhouse or restaurant as part of my evaluation of the course or any course for that matter. This is why I put it last as another positive note, even mentioned that the restaurant experience would of been a perfect 10 had it been a little more lively. That does not mean that in my opinion the course would be a 10 if the restaurant was busier.


As to the remembering of specific details of the course, some courses like the example I gave already in Crystal Downs, or even NGLA, Merion, Cypress, Shinnecock etc to name a few just have routings that are simply easier for me to remember (based on a single visit) as the holes seem to stick out as varied and unique for ME. This is simply one of the aspects that I personally find adding to my opinion of a great course. Right or wrong as that may be in your far more experienced and respected opinion.


I can give you another example, the Old Course I've now played a few times, I still struggle to remember all the holes, no it's not my favorite either however, it's growing on me with each play as I learn more about it and develop that appreciation. I'm not saying FH would not have a similar effect, as I like it much more than I did the old course on the first play. But I doubt I will have that many opportunities in life to go back there as you have been fortunate enough to have had. Either way it's a great course, one of your favorites understandably.

Sharing the greatest experiences in golf.

IG: @top100golftraveler
www.lockharttravelclub.com

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Why is Friar's Head not a Doak 10?
« Reply #63 on: September 21, 2015, 08:02:06 AM »


Sean,

You may not be qualified to opine on the quality of the routing, but I am.

The quality of the routing over the terrain at Friars Head is self evident, but then again, how would you know otherwise, as you've never set foot on the property. 

So for you, any pronouncement about the quality of the routing would be foolish.

Whereas, having visited the project during and after construction, with and without Ken Bakst, and having played it numerous times, I'm more than qualified to assess the quality of the routing.

As to your statement regarding the preferring of A to B when B is a better design, could you provide five (5) real world examples

First, hardly anybody is qualified to opine on the routing.  One must be intimate with the project and the archies work on the project to have any sense of the why the routing is as it is.  Even then, I am not sure pronouncing a routing self evident is wise.  For the layman and outsider I can buy the idea of generally thinking the course uses the features pretty well or the walk is very good or there is little walking between greens and tees.  But for an outsider to declare a routing is self evident is for nearly everybody a very foolish thing to pronounce.

I have never been to Friars Head, but the subject of a 10 is always interesting.  I think Pietro is spot on with with a score for each individual.  The actual architecture can only take a golfer so far.  I actually think 9s and 10s are as much about one's relationship/understanding/admiration for a course as the excellent architecture. Whatever it is that makes people really fall hard for a course is the difference.  I have yet to come across a course like this, but I suspect the closest I have come is with North Berwick. 

On a more personal level and more importantly, I truly believe that all a course need be is good enough. Greatness in design is not the be all and end all of golf.  That is self evident when we prefer A to B even though we know that B is a better design.

Ciao

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Friar's Head not a Doak 10?
« Reply #64 on: September 21, 2015, 09:09:42 AM »
Patrick, instead of just saying the routing of Friars Head is a great routing, can you tell us WHY you think it's a great routing?


(FWIW I have played Friars Head and agree it's a first rate routing but I'll enjoy hearing your reasons.  Thanks)

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Friar's Head not a Doak 10?
« Reply #65 on: September 21, 2015, 09:32:21 AM »


Sean,

You may not be qualified to opine on the quality of the routing, but I am.

The quality of the routing over the terrain at Friars Head is self evident, but then again, how would you know otherwise, as you've never set foot on the property. 

So for you, any pronouncement about the quality of the routing would be foolish.

Whereas, having visited the project during and after construction, with and without Ken Bakst, and having played it numerous times, I'm more than qualified to assess the quality of the routing.

As to your statement regarding the preferring of A to B when B is a better design, could you provide five (5) real world examples

First, hardly anybody is qualified to opine on the routing.  One must be intimate with the project and the archies work on the project to have any sense of the why the routing is as it is.  Even then, I am not sure pronouncing a routing self evident is wise.  For the layman and outsider I can buy the idea of generally thinking the course uses the features pretty well or the walk is very good or there is little walking between greens and tees.  But for an outsider to declare a routing is self evident is for nearly everybody a very foolish thing to pronounce.

I have never been to Friars Head, but the subject of a 10 is always interesting.  I think Pietro is spot on with with a score for each individual.  The actual architecture can only take a golfer so far.  I actually think 9s and 10s are as much about one's relationship/understanding/admiration for a course as the excellent architecture. Whatever it is that makes people really fall hard for a course is the difference.  I have yet to come across a course like this, but I suspect the closest I have come is with North Berwick. 

On a more personal level and more importantly, I truly believe that all a course need be is good enough. Greatness in design is not the be all and end all of golf.  That is self evident when we prefer A to B even though we know that B is a better design.

Ciao


Pat


Nobody could accuse you of being modest.  Lets just say I won't be asking you to assess routings.  Instead, I will rely on the opinions of people paid to create routings.  Even amongst professionals, I suspect few would be as arrogant as yourself. 


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Friar's Head not a Doak 10?
« Reply #66 on: September 21, 2015, 01:27:28 PM »
Here we go... another potentially outstanding thread being turned into a contentious pile of crap just so someone can beat their chest.


Not even blocking someone's posts makes the situation better as their comments appear in any quoted reply.  :( 
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Gib_Papazian

Re: Why is Friar's Head not a Doak 10?
« Reply #67 on: September 21, 2015, 02:39:08 PM »
Bill,


"Best" and "Favorite" are vastly different words. Friar's Head is like a David Lean picture - an enormous achievement in scope and vision that invokes a tidal wave of visceral stimulation. Try watching Bridge on the River Kwai and Lawrence of Arabia back-to-back. In similar fashion, trying to absorb the sheer excellence of Friar's Head is almost exhausting - like watching Avatar and Interstellar with the intellectual content of 2001.


I'm not sure I'd want to play Friar's every day, nor County Down. Golf, like cooking, is a form of meditation to me. I do not always crave a firehose of challenging data to assimilate. One needs to psyche up to read Faulkner, where hopping into a Hunter Thompson story is like riding a familiar roller coaster - entertaining as hell, but still comfortable.


My impression of Chechessee Creek was a relaxed wander in perfect concert with its surroundings. Every single element was in proportion without a hint of pretentiousness, gently relaxing into the ground as if its always been there. I agree it has a South London feel - as if the heather of Surrey morphed into pines along the intercostal waterway. Actually, Chechessee might be the Swinley Forest of America. Impossibly elegant, intimate and intentionally understated - without a single trapping of ostentatious bluster.   


In truth, as I get older and face the inexorable reality of an eventual dotage, I'd rather wander into the sunset at a manageable place like Chechessee or Westhampton than endure a reminder the ball flies just a little bit shorter and the hole seems a bit smaller with every passing day.     
« Last Edit: September 21, 2015, 02:40:54 PM by Gib Papazian »

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Friar's Head not a Doak 10?
« Reply #68 on: September 21, 2015, 02:54:02 PM »
A few comments...here we go!

As a player I don't really care how clever or inspired the architect's routing is.  I care about the final result: the walk, and the eighteen holes presented in order.  The walk is an essential part of the experience.  How visually and viscerally stimulating is the environment, and how demanding is the journey, and how is the pacing of play?  Corey Miller and I will have to disagree on the importance of the walk.  I estimate its importance at about 30-50% of my overall golfing experience.  At Friar's Head, you roll off a green a few yards and begin playing golf again.  That is awesome to me; a committed foursome can play a relaxed three and a half hour round of golf there.

Analyzing other aspects of the walk, each nine hole loop essentially starts at the ocean side dune ridge, moves out into the "potato field" and comes back.  The land in the field is not very interesting, with the exception of the 6th hole, in which a large sand or glacial ridge (depending on who you ask) is used to perfection.  The 6th hole is a highlight of the front nine.  You have four hours to play golf, but much of the time is spent walking, talking and sensing the environment.  At Friar's Head, the best is save for last, when you walk into the dunes covered with rare dwarf beech trees.  Another fine feature at Friar's Head is the shifting and considerable winds, which should be considered when evaluating a course.

Friar's Head does not have the most dramatic or interesting walk in golf.  The environment is beautiful, private and secluded, but most golfers would rate the walk at Pacific Dunes or Cypress Point as a superior nature walk, with superior land forms for golf.

"From the first tee to the last green, you experience the very essence of what this land is about..."

--  Tommy


Sigh.  Tommy Naccarato's emotional description of Friar's Head can be distilled to "Friar's Head is a 10 because it is brilliant and I love it so.".  Sorry Tommy, but that phrase sounds like marketing clap-trap.  I loved reading your heartwarming description, but I don't think it answers the question.  Similarly, Mac Plumart's comments are vague and non-committal, suggesting "Friar's Head is great because it's great."  Bart Bradley's opening statement asks whether Friar's Head is a 10.  The fact that Bart made a one sentence opening post and then disappeared is unacceptable.

There are about 35,000 golf courses in the world, which means there are 350 in the top 1% of golf courses.  That's not a fine enough distinction to separate the truly greatest courses, so let's say the 0.1% of courses are given a 10.  That's 35 courses.  Golf Magazine rates Friar's Head as the 32nd best course in the world.  That is very high praise.

When it comes to the golf part of analyzing golf course, I tend to be more mechanical in my analysis, looking for a grand variety of golf holes and golf shots.  Short and long, up and down, left and right, putting variety, bunker shot variety, uneven lies, awkward lies — the list of possible shots should be broad, with a pleasing percentage of possible outcomes.  With that in mind, a couple of global observations about playing golf at Friar's Head:

1.  There are very few downhill approach shots.  The 9th hole offers the only significantly downhill approach.

2.  There are a lot of false fronts at Friar's Head.  Off the top of my head, you could come up short and roll back on 4, 5?, 8, 14, 15, 16 and 18.  I think there are others.  Stone Eagle is a course in my golf universe with a number of false fronts.

3.  The majority of greens slope hard from back to front.  As a result of items 2. and 3., I say Friar's Head has a tendency to yield a lot of long uphill putts, and long uphill chips from tight fairway lies.

4.  There are great opportunities for "rare play" shots from unusual lies in unusual vegetation.  The rare play is one to be savored.

A great way to honor a course's memorability is to create a list of personal anecdotes.  Here's my favorite Friar's Head anecdote.  About ten years ago, I made my first east coast swing for golf, and a friend graciously set up a game for me at Friar's Head.  I arrived early and played by myself with a caddie.  I played rather poorly, and did not communicate well with my caddie.  I returned to the old clubhouse down by the 4th hole, where head professional Jim Kidd greeted me in the parking lot.  I said hello, and then almost immediately begged him for a second chance at the course, which is very unusual for me.  He was kind about it, and said that he, his assistant, and the caddie master were going out in a couple hours, and I could join them.  After lunch, we played as a fivesome, four golfers plus Gus, the dog made famous in Dick Durrance's iconic photo at Sand Hills GC.  As hard as I tried, Gus ignored me all day long, and trotted around the course with his own agenda, though staying clear of the golf being played.  This time we played the back tees, and I played ten strokes better in the afternoon.  On the 16th hole, a short dogleg right, I had about 145-150 yards left to the small sloped green perched high on another sand feature.  Attempting to show off, I said "watch this", or something to that effect, and chipped a low 6-iron which bounced 5 or 6 times and scooted up the hill onto the green, where I two putted for par.  Thank you, friend.  I'll never forget that day.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2015, 03:00:24 PM by John Kirk »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Why is Friar's Head not a Doak 10?
« Reply #69 on: September 21, 2015, 02:54:21 PM »

Patrick, instead of just saying the routing of Friars Head is a great routing, can you tell us WHY you think it's a great routing?

Bill,

I already offered an opinion on what makes the routing so strong.

There are other reasons, but, first, please read my prior offering, then comment on it.

Thanks



(FWIW I have played Friars Head and agree it's a first rate routing but I'll enjoy hearing your reasons.  Thanks)

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Why is Friar's Head not a Doak 10?
« Reply #70 on: September 21, 2015, 03:03:26 PM »

As to your statement regarding the preferring of A to B when B is a better design, could you provide five (5) real world examples

First, hardly anybody is qualified to opine on the routing.  .

I have never been to Friars Head
[/quote]

Pat

Nobody could accuse you of being modest. 

Depends upon the subject.
We're all ignorant, just on different topics.

One of yours is Friars Head.


Lets just say I won't be asking you to assess routings. 

I really don't care what you will or won't be asking me to do.

But, when it comes to Friars Head, I'm certainly far more qualified than you.

Are you aware that other architects submitted routing plans prior to C&C ?


Instead, I will rely on the opinions of people paid to create routings. 

No one cares about who you rely upon.


Even amongst professionals, I suspect few would be as arrogant as yourself. 

Maybe the subject of routings is beyond your ability to comprehend.

I'm certainly qualified to assess the quality of the routing at Friars Head.
That fact that you're not is obvious


[/quote]

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Friar's Head not a Doak 10?
« Reply #71 on: September 21, 2015, 03:52:06 PM »
Just wanted to thank those who fleshed out their thoughts. That's more of what I sought.


Quote
1.  There are very few downhill approach shots.  The 9th hole offers the only significantly downhill approach.

That's enough to make it a 10 in my book, without ever having even played it... :) Thanks John Kirk for an excellent post.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2015, 03:54:43 PM by George Pazin »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Why is Friar's Head not a Doak 10?
« Reply #72 on: September 21, 2015, 03:56:13 PM »
John Kirk,

Nice comments.

But, as in your citing of Tommy's comment, isn't it common for a golfer to view a course in the context of his personal round/experience, rather than stepping back as a disinterested observer ?

I always thought that the 16th hole would be better served by having the tee on top of the dune, rather than cut into it, ala # 17 at NGLA.

Per you criteria, you must have been blown away by the walk from # 14 green to # 15 tee, upon being confronted by the stunning vista presented on # 15 tee.

I don't know if you've been back recently, but the walk from # 15 green to # 16 tee is now........... breath taking.
It's almost like being on a suspension bridge, versus the old inland path.

I've often wondered, what our opinions of a golf course would be if we played in  a dense fog where only the hole being played could be viewed.

Your comment about Friars Head being ranked 32 in the U.S. certainly speaks volumes as to the quality, relative or absolute, of the golf course.

To those contesting Friars Head's "10" evaluation, at what point does a course become a "10" ?

When it's ranked # 5 ?   # 17 ?    # 28 ?

At some point, as the ranking trends toward # 1, a "10" has to be awarded.

So, what's that numerical point ?

Michael Whitaker,

I didn't start the hijacking, Sean did.

Sean,

Please answer the question where you stated that you'd rather play course B over course A, where Course A has a superior design.  Can you cite five real life examples ?

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why is Friar's Head not a Doak 10?
« Reply #73 on: September 21, 2015, 04:00:33 PM »
Patrick,

I have to leave for a few hours.  I'll respond to two or three of your comments then.  Thanks.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Why is Friar's Head not a Doak 10?
« Reply #74 on: September 21, 2015, 04:47:43 PM »

To those contesting Friars Head's "10" evaluation, at what point does a course become a "10" ?

When it's ranked # 5 ?   # 17 ?    # 28 ?

At some point, as the ranking trends toward # 1, a "10" has to be awarded.

So, what's that numerical point ?


Patrick:


Let me help clear up your thinking on one point:  a "10" never HAS to be awarded.  It's not a numerical point.


Based on twenty years of reaction to my rating scale, I would say just the opposite:  many more people have found fault with my awarding a "10" to one course or another, than have made a good case to award it to another course.

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