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Tim_Weiman

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Re: A Little Help for The Confidential Guide
« Reply #125 on: July 13, 2012, 10:49:43 PM »
Tom,

I think you are wrong about Common Ground. Your assessment is too low, especially when you think about the concept of the place and the nearby bar scene in Cherry Creek.

CG is definitely with a special visit!
Tim Weiman

Bill_McBride

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Re: A Little Help for The Confidential Guide
« Reply #126 on: July 13, 2012, 10:55:56 PM »
Wyatt, you are s correct about Squire Creek. However I tried to use words that say the same thing. An average Fazio of his top tier courses. By that I mean big budget and big effort on decent to good land. However it is considered top notch in the state because it was a high budget Fazio. I will take Oakbourne or Bayou Desaird any day over it for a State Am or just for me to be a member of. As Paul noted Oakbourse is our home club.  BDCC was my childhood course which I loved during the Maxwell period and liked during the Joe Lee period. Now that it is back to Maxwell I am thrilled. When i see those shaved areas on one side of a green without rhyme or reason other than the USGA promotes them, it makes me think of BDCC and all the other classic small green complexes which were well trapped and surrounded by deep bermuda rough. You either hit the green or you developed a short game fast unless you wanted to lose your shirt and the contents of your wallet. That was how golf was played on classic designs across maxwell country as well as most of the deep south. YOu had better be smart of the tee and stay in play. You could not hold a green from the rough and it took a magic act to get up and  down. BDCC was one special place to play 36 a day as a child. Sometimes we played 18 at BDCC in the morning 18 at Monroe muni after lunch(TOC in louisiana, lots of hard pan to learn to play tight lie and trick shot golf from) and then 1 or 2 baseball games each evening. It is a great life.  As an aside an old LSU player I caddied for a few times named Tom Evans just moved to lafayette and comes to a prayer group for us cancer types each Monday. He taught me some grreat short game shots including the ball off pine straw where you hit the ball hard and it never leaves a foot off the ground and checks with one hop to dead stop. The first time he did it was on 18 in a match over a 15 yard wide bunker to a pin 15 feet from edge of the green and left the egg 1 foot from the hole to win the match 1 up.  

Tiger,

I have never played Bayor Desaird.  When you get back into town, lets make a road trip.

Paul

How far is that from Pensacola?   Might meet you dudes there.   


 >:(

You can be the 4th!

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Little Help for The Confidential Guide
« Reply #127 on: July 13, 2012, 11:03:18 PM »

How far is that from Pensacola?   Might meet you dudes there.   

Bill:

Speaking of that, I remember years ago reading about an Air Force Base golf course in Florida that was touted to be very good ... almost like another Bethpage Black, back in the days when the Black course was not well maintained.  Do you have any idea which course that was, and what has happened to it?

Might be Eglin AFB, which has a modern Palmer and an antique which is rumored to be a Tilly.  That's in Ft Walton Beach, 45 minutes east of Pensacola. 

Dan Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Little Help for The Confidential Guide
« Reply #128 on: July 13, 2012, 11:11:58 PM »

How far is that from Pensacola?   Might meet you dudes there.   

Bill:

Speaking of that, I remember years ago reading about an Air Force Base golf course in Florida that was touted to be very good ... almost like another Bethpage Black, back in the days when the Black course was not well maintained.  Do you have any idea which course that was, and what has happened to it?

Tom,

I believe you are thinking of Langford Moreau's Eglin AFB base course in Niceville a bit east of Pensacola.  I have some good things about it but have never seen it.  

http://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/golfd/article/1954may35.pdf

Texarkana in Arkansas mentioned above is also a Langford/Moreau.  As far as 9 holers go you should check out Langford Moreau's West Bend CC in Wisconsin about which Pete Dye is reported to have said, according to Ron Whitten, that he found an amazing Seth Raynor course.  Of course WBCC is 18 holes with 9 holes added quite some time after the original 9 was built.  And if you need an entry for best $20 course in the world check out L/M's Spring Valley GC in Salem Wisconsin where conditioning aside there are 5-6 simply terrific holes.  Mom and pop course at its best.  
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Malcolm Mckinnon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Little Help for The Confidential Guide
« Reply #129 on: July 14, 2012, 12:39:26 AM »
Tom D.,

Forgive me if this a repeat question but I don't have the patience to wade though the last five pages of posts.

I will be in NH next week. Can I call the pro shop and tell them I am a "rater" for the upcoming Tom Doak  "Confidential Guide" encyclopedia of golf course architecture?

There is a nice little Stiles and Van Kleek nine holer in North Walpole I would like to report on but is Private.

Please advise,

Malcolm

« Last Edit: July 14, 2012, 12:42:38 AM by Malcolm Mckinnon »

Sam Morrow

Re: A Little Help for The Confidential Guide
« Reply #130 on: July 14, 2012, 12:45:19 AM »
Tom D.,

Forgive me if this a repeat question but I don't have the patience to wade though the last five pages of posts.

I will be in NH next week. Can I call the pro shop and tell them I am a "rater" for the upcoming Tom Doak  "Confidential Guide" encyclopedia of golf course architecture?

There is a nice little Stiles and Van Kleek nine holer in North Walpole I would like to report on but is Private.

Please advise,

Malcolm



You know someone is going to read this and think you're serious. :D

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +0/-1
Re: A Little Help for The Confidential Guide
« Reply #131 on: July 14, 2012, 06:08:20 AM »
Tom D.,

Forgive me if this a repeat question but I don't have the patience to wade though the last five pages of posts.

I will be in NH next week. Can I call the pro shop and tell them I am a "rater" for the upcoming Tom Doak  "Confidential Guide" encyclopedia of golf course architecture?

There is a nice little Stiles and Van Kleek nine holer in North Walpole I would like to report on but is Private.

Please advise,

Malcolm

Malcolm:

Don't spoil it for all the young men and women out there right now who are trying to gain access to courses by telling people they work for me! ;)

Then again, most of them are trying to get on Sand Hills and Prairie Dunes and Shinnecock, not some little nine-holer in North Walpole, so you're probably safe.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Little Help for The Confidential Guide
« Reply #132 on: July 14, 2012, 01:18:55 PM »

How far is that from Pensacola?   Might meet you dudes there.   

Bill:

Speaking of that, I remember years ago reading about an Air Force Base golf course in Florida that was touted to be very good ... almost like another Bethpage Black, back in the days when the Black course was not well maintained.  Do you have any idea which course that was, and what has happened to it?

Tom,

I believe you are thinking of Langford Moreau's Eglin AFB base course in Niceville a bit east of Pensacola.  I have some good things about it but have never seen it.  

http://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/golfd/article/1954may35.pdf

Texarkana in Arkansas mentioned above is also a Langford/Moreau.  As far as 9 holers go you should check out Langford Moreau's West Bend CC in Wisconsin about which Pete Dye is reported to have said, according to Ron Whitten, that he found an amazing Seth Raynor course.  Of course WBCC is 18 holes with 9 holes added quite some time after the original 9 was built.  And if you need an entry for best $20 course in the world check out L/M's Spring Valley GC in Salem Wisconsin where conditioning aside there are 5-6 simply terrific holes.  Mom and pop course at its best.  

You're probably correct, nothing much about the Eagle course at Eglin shouted "Tilly!" to me.  The greens were angled, narrow, usually with a sharp, steep fall off on the short side.   There's been a remodel I haven't seen. 

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Little Help for The Confidential Guide
« Reply #133 on: July 14, 2012, 04:08:10 PM »
Tom,

I think you are wrong about Common Ground. Your assessment is too low, especially when you think about the concept of the place and the nearby bar scene in Cherry Creek.

CG is definitely with a special visit!


Courses deserve a higher Doak ranking because of the nearby bar scene?  I guess I missed it when Tom explained that as part of the criteria ;)
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Richard Crumb

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Little Help for The Confidential Guide
« Reply #134 on: July 14, 2012, 04:32:15 PM »
In New Hampshire, you should check out Montcalm Golf Club in Enfield.  I played it once a few years back when it was still rather new but to me it was ahead of anything else I've seen or played in NH.  A mountain course, but well routed so that the terrain changes aren't as intrusive as most.

Mike Sweeney

Re: A Little Help for The Confidential Guide
« Reply #135 on: July 14, 2012, 09:22:53 PM »

Then again, most of them are trying to get on Sand Hills and Prairie Dunes and Shinnecock, not some little nine-holer in North Walpole, so you're probably safe.

Tom,

www.thedoakscale.com is still available if you need a manager !!

We could smoke those guys from The Outpost Club.  :D

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Little Help for The Confidential Guide
« Reply #136 on: July 17, 2012, 04:58:26 PM »
Was perusing my copy of the CG last night and noted Tom mentioned Eisenhower GC in the "Gossip" section for Colorado, but said his understanding was it was mostly flat.

Such is not the case! The Blue is the better of the two Eisenhower (Air Force Academy) courses. Silver is more on the hill, but the Blue is by no means flat. It's very much an RTJ course and while I liked playing there I couldn't see it as more than perhaps a 5, but 5s are generally worthwhile if you have the chance.

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Little Help for The Confidential Guide
« Reply #137 on: July 17, 2012, 06:50:00 PM »
New Hampshire: Bald Peak is supposed to be a blast.  I also got a kick out of Canterbury Woods, which has several hundred feet of elevation change and a bunch of cool half-par holes.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Little Help for The Confidential Guide
« Reply #138 on: July 17, 2012, 07:20:58 PM »
Was perusing my copy of the CG last night and noted Tom mentioned Eisenhower GC in the "Gossip" section for Colorado, but said his understanding was it was mostly flat.

Such is not the case! The Blue is the better of the two Eisenhower (Air Force Academy) courses. Silver is more on the hill, but the Blue is by no means flat. It's very much an RTJ course and while I liked playing there I couldn't see it as more than perhaps a 5, but 5s are generally worthwhile if you have the chance.

Matthew,

Eisenhower Blue may be the single best Robert Trent Jones (Sr.) course I've ever seen.  It gets far less press than it should and some recent reno work has really improved playability.  In its current state, I honestly think it ranks in the top 10 in Colorado, and is better than any of the courses in the high country I have played.   Definitely not flat by the way.  And a beautiful setting.  I think its a 6 on his scale, though that may be stretching it in some folks' eyes.

Tom would do well to include it and two or three other military courses worth seeing in the revision. 

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Little Help for The Confidential Guide
« Reply #139 on: July 17, 2012, 08:08:04 PM »
Bill, Monroe is a long ways from Pensacola like 6 to 6.5 hours. but I would love to be back on the home track with you.

Malcolm Mckinnon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Little Help for The Confidential Guide
« Reply #140 on: July 17, 2012, 09:48:02 PM »
Tom D.!

I'm here in Keene, NH trying to get a bite.

Started the day in Osterville, MA., went over to Oyster Harbors Club  and spent some time in the shade pitching around in the new practice area you built for them. Not bad. Actually, pretty fine. My member friend said that they just happened to have an extra $100K in the pot so, what the heck, let's build a practice area.

Later decided to test drive Brian Silva's creation in Jaffrey, NH. the Shattuck Golf Club  Wow, this is a practicably an unplayable course.

Perhaps the worst golf course I have ever played. Sorry, Brian Silva, but this is a disaster. Should never have been built. El stinko land punctuated by dead lakes full of ravenous insects.  The only saving grace is the views of Mount Monadnock. The rest is the most ridiculously penal golf course I have ever seen in my life.

Tomorrow, I will get to the Stiles and Van Kleek in North Walpole.

I'm still awaiting my official "Tom Doak Ranging Rater" button and also my official card to flash at the pro shop. Lots more "confidential guide" work to do here.

Man, those golf doors are gonna open wide when I say "TOM DOAK DEMANDS THAT I REVIEW YOUR GOLF COURSE".

Later,

Malcolm







« Last Edit: July 17, 2012, 11:08:12 PM by Malcolm Mckinnon »

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Little Help for The Confidential Guide
« Reply #141 on: July 18, 2012, 05:26:42 PM »
Was perusing my copy of the CG last night and noted Tom mentioned Eisenhower GC in the "Gossip" section for Colorado, but said his understanding was it was mostly flat.

Such is not the case! The Blue is the better of the two Eisenhower (Air Force Academy) courses. Silver is more on the hill, but the Blue is by no means flat. It's very much an RTJ course and while I liked playing there I couldn't see it as more than perhaps a 5, but 5s are generally worthwhile if you have the chance.

Matthew,

Eisenhower Blue may be the single best Robert Trent Jones (Sr.) course I've ever seen.  It gets far less press than it should and some recent reno work has really improved playability.  In its current state, I honestly think it ranks in the top 10 in Colorado, and is better than any of the courses in the high country I have played.   Definitely not flat by the way.  And a beautiful setting.  I think its a 6 on his scale, though that may be stretching it in some folks' eyes.

Tom would do well to include it and two or three other military courses worth seeing in the revision. 

I would certainly love to see it since renovations. I spent time there in the mid-90s, when the AFA held sports camps in the summer (they may still do so, I don't know). The golf one was a pretty great deal. You lived in the dorms for a week and spent all day down at the courses, then in the evening you'd go back up to the academy and get into all sorts of mischief with the other "campers." They had some weeks where the focus was on teaching and one that was billed as more competitive. During that one you still spent a lot of time on the range and putting green and short game area, but there was also a weeklong points competition--you compiled points via skills tests and daily playing competitions (various match formats, stableford, etc.). It was great fun.

Blue was a wonderful course even then. I haven't seen too many RTJ courses but I like most of them. AFA Blue is no Spyglass Hill, but it does have some similar qualities to the forest holes at SH--holes play throughout the pine forest and there's lots of elevation change but it's used well and nothing feels arduous.

Malcolm Mckinnon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Little Help for The Confidential Guide
« Reply #142 on: July 18, 2012, 11:33:21 PM »
Tom,

The Hooper Golf Club in New Hampshire is a blast!

This is the Stiles and Van Kleek nine holer in Walpole, not North Walpole as I earlier reported, NH. It is now semi-private ie: open to the public after 10:30 AM. The greens fee is a knee wobbling $18. I had a member of the board who overheard me chatting with the pro offer (outside of my earshot ) to pay for my cart. I had to break the bad/good news to him that I am a walker. The Pro, Ron Rosko, cut his teeth at another classic down the road called Taconic.

Must, must , must  include in the upcoming "Confidential Guide".

I took a bunch of pictures and in a few days will start a new thread here describing the golf course if everything works out and I have the time.

Cheers,

Malcolm

Ps: you can pm me as to where to send my check for my residual of the sales of the book. Also still awaiting my credential Kit as a Doak "rating ranger".




Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Little Help for The Confidential Guide
« Reply #143 on: July 19, 2012, 02:47:36 PM »
You've got to update Oklahoma City G&CC - it's terrific.
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Stephen Northrup

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Little Help for The Confidential Guide
« Reply #144 on: July 20, 2012, 11:37:13 PM »
In Wyoming, Powder Horn in Sheridan is probably the place to visit, though I have not played Shooting Star in Jackson and have heard some good things about it.  The downside to Powder Horn is that it's a "golf community" and some of the homes on the course are so large they could be mistaken for a clubhouse......

Sinclair Eaddy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Little Help for The Confidential Guide
« Reply #145 on: July 22, 2012, 12:32:16 AM »
Tom, I'm probably repeating a number of courses mentioned in this thread:

NH - Lake Sunapee, Lake Winnipesaukee, Bald Peak Colony

WY- Shooting Star, 3 Creek Ranch, Teton Pines

UT - Glenwild

rboyce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Little Help for The Confidential Guide
« Reply #146 on: July 22, 2012, 09:50:40 AM »
I'd like to request an update of the review for Cane Patch GC in Myrtle Beach, SC. Kidding of course, but I still get a big kick out of that review. Passed that spot a million times on vacation. Mat tees - hahahaha.

I've enjoyed the TCG a lot. Best wishes on the new edition!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +0/-1
Re: A Little Help for The Confidential Guide
« Reply #147 on: August 20, 2015, 09:58:33 PM »
I am heading to Maine and New Hampshire next week to try and see a few of these courses for Volume 3.  Thanks to everyone for their suggestions, they have been a huge help!


P.S.  I said three years ago that I had no plans to go to Alaska, and I still don't, but I'm wavering ... did everyone see Dom Furore's photos of Alaskan courses in the September GOLF DIGEST?  The photo of Valley of the Eagles Golf Links is absolutely stunning.  I would love to see that, but it's a pretty long detour, and it's getting pretty late in the year already!

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