[Rich Goodale]

Lorne is a fine person whom I have known and occasionally played with for c. 30 years,  He knows well his grasses, his golf and its architecture.  That being said, his opinion re CS vs. the World is his opinion, as are the opinions of others on this thread, including (now) me.


To me, to say the "best" agronomy is just a point of view in a moment of time.  For example, in the nearly 40 years that I have played golf in the UK, I have heard the meme that the best greens in the UK are at Nairn.  I've played that course, many times at many times of the year and still come off the 18th saying "Where's the Beef!"  I've also played most of the most highly thought of courses south of Hadrian's Wall, again many times at many times of the year, and I have yet to see a golf course in Albion or the Pays de Galles which is presented as well, or has truly running and as challenging greens, as numerous courses north of the Border, mostly every year, at any time of the year.


Even on this mostly thoughtful web-site, the Sassenachs, seem try to defend their territory without any ammunition...


And as for the USA, of which I know a bit due to my 40+ years of being born and being there, the best greens in the world live there, but 'tis a tremendous pity that the so many of the courses designed by the Dead Old Guys (tm) have become bastardized by member-pressurized thick roughs and constricting muli-variable options of approaching greens.


Amen


Rich

[Sean_A]

Niall

So now you would be delighted with the higher quality agronomy? 

I didn't mean to suggest that balls rattled around in the wind because of the green speed, but I couldn't understand the reason for such fast greens.  It only seemed to add an extra layer of difficulty to an already difficult set-up.  The greens were plenty firm and spot on true...don't see the point in spending extra money for the extra speed.   

Mark...my recent two ventures in Scotland yielded average quality greens that ran slow (too slow to show off whatever qualities they may possess)...with Kingsbarns the slight exception as they ran quicker than the others (Glen Kings, N Berwick, Lundin, Eden and Elie), but were no better quality.  Lundin & Elie were in good order, but nothing special...which is rare.  Elie's were particularly slow, soft and somewhat bumpy.  None of the greens were in the ball park of little ole 2 greenkeeper Kington when I played there immediately after my Scottish trips, but I know Kington has issues when a decent amount of rain falls. Part of the reason is bloody Scotland is that much further north so as to make a difference in terms of quality growing season....which bangs home the importance of a high percentage of fescue greens.

Rihc...when we played Dornoch last year the greens were poor by any estimation....and certainly nothing like one would expect for such a quality course.  However, I agree that any visit to any course is a snapshot of a total picture which is really only fully understood after many visits over many years.  The quality of the greens is not why I go to Scotland because I think they could be better, but for the most part, they are adequate. 

My club has the rep for some of the best greens in England, but I know we have issues with too much poa (as does practically every links/heathland in GB&I) which really means that if they aren't cut short enough they are bumpy due to varying grasses growing at different rates.  We combat that by rolling much more often than previously to avoid cutting below 4mm so more fescue can take root.  The greens were far faster when more poa was present, but the quality was not as high because of softness, especially in the winter.  So yes, I will opnce again reiterate that agronomy is very important to realizing quality greens.

Ciao

[Niall C]

Sean


I was specifically thinking of the greens. I'm very happy with a links course that is scruffy round the edges. At my club, and this is a constant refrain at many clubs I suspect, is that greenkeepers "hold back the greens" for certain competitions and therefore members feel short changed the rest of the time. Now whether it's reasonable to expect a higher all round condition over the peak season in the Scottish climate, or whether the conditioning is a product of the amount of resources you put into the course, I really don't know. But I do know the condition of the greens isn't constant over the summer months and that is a frustration.


Re Renaissance - don't know if anyone else has the same issue. I'm used to older traditional courses with variety of grasses on greens, from moss to poa. Looking at Renaissance greens, they look so perfect that I can't help thinking they are going to be quick, and obviously quicker than they were. Not that they were slow.


Niall

[Sean_A]

Niall


I too don't mind scruff around the edges, but not around the edges of the greens     I like a clear area of well kept short grass around greens with true, firm and somewhat speedy greens.  I don't generally expect top notch conditions in Scotland, but if the green fee is high, I expect better conditions....and that isn't really the case in Scotland.  Not many top clubs deliver conditions commensurate with the green fees.  One can often similar conditions between a £60 course and a £125 course.  I suspect growing conditions and number of rounds have a lot to do with this.  But I also suspect greens have too much poa to really stand up and be noticed.


Ciao

[Niall C]

Here's the question, can you get rid of poa without digging up the green and starting again ?


Niall

[David Davis]

It's fair to say I've also played extensively in the UK and Ireland I guess. In all the rounds I've had, many, in fact most being shoulder season, March, April, October and November I've only ever had one round where the greens weren't simply good enough to have a great time and enjoy the architecture of the course. That was at Pennard and I loved the course, so be it. I'd say if you are coming over from the US and you expect fast as in 10-15 stimp greens you should save yourself the trouble. Trying to pick best agronomy in a country where the average in my mind is really amazing given the annual membership fees are a fraction of what they are in the US is a little unfair. From my perspective it's always better there on average by far than it is here on the continent.


Think about it, the average green keeping staff is like 4-5 people or less. In fact sometimes it's one man and a heard of sheep or cows. Yes the course is still interesting compelling and fun. For the price of a green fee in the US you could join the club.


Not much of a comparison there. I've been to Castle Stuart twice, it's great. I wouldn't say it's better than any of the other top attractions in terms of agronomy but I'm not a grass expert. Naturally leading up to a big event like the Scottish Open you can bet a course will be put into tip top shape, like any course that would host an Open. Hard to compare all the extra loving and budget these courses get with the average heard of sheep or small staff that are out there knocking em dead with hearts full of passion.

[Sean_A]

Here's the question, can you get rid of poa without digging up the green and starting again ?


Niall

Getting rid of poa the cheap way is very difficult even if a hard core plan is in place and the weather cooperates. It takes serious time and patience whereby the greens will seem like they are not as good as they used to be....members will complain! But to be honest, for most clubs considering the idea of a higher fescue %, this is the only feasible option.


We shall see how Ballybunion gets on with their new greens.  In some way it may be a test case for high end clubs seeking to regenerate proper greens. 


Ciao

[Andrew Simpson]

If courses in Scotland were trying to grow Bermuda, Zoysia or whatever the climate would certainly be a factor, perhaps even a few degrees South of the wall might struggle.
 For those continually banging the drum that there can be some "wandering" or "drift" on fast or downhill or whatever other excuse, I fully understand that but am only saying there were irregularities I was perhaps being polite in describing how harshly they moved off line in random directions. Not just my opinion but that of respected caddies and the guys who paid then to carry the bag.
Cheers

[Jon Wiggett]

Niall,


the sensible approach is to accept that there will be a certain amount of poa in the sward and indeed this is a positive. What you should be after is keeping the poa down to a minimum.


Andrew,


you are the only person I have heard who thought the greens during the tournament were anything other than very good. I too was there and certainly did not see any sign of putts rolling randomly across the greens in all directions. I wish I had seen it though as it must have been quite a sight.


Jon

[Niall C]

Sean/Jon

Thanks for the comments re poa. As stated previously my knowledge of agronomy is sketchy at best, but I think I'm right in saying that our greens are mostly poa. Certainly early in the season the seed heads give the green an almost frosty look. At that point they are pretty slow and bumpy. I've been told that the greenkeeper doesn't cut below a certain height when the seed heads are in bloom so as not to encourage them to bloom lower down (?). Got that second hand so might be off message there. Assuming that is what he is doing, does that mean we are condemned each year to slow and bumpy greens each year for the 4 or 5 weeks that the seed heads are in bloom ?

Niall

[Andrew Simpson]

Andrew,

you are the only person I have heard who thought the greens during the tournament were anything other than very good. I too was there and certainly did not see any sign of putts rolling randomly across the greens in all directions. I wish I had seen it though as it must have been quite a sight.

Jon

All I can say is what I witnessed on the greens after a few putts were questioned by a couple of players and taking a closer look at the green surfaces.
 Hearing a pro complain about missing a putt due to something other than him wasn't a shock to me but watching it happen and realise they were being honest was a little. 
 That was watching a couple of putts repeated from 6 feet away looking down the like, likewise as I said to a tee or disc when looking at other hole areas. I think I also said it was only poor on a few holes
 It did occur to me that on Mon/Tues they were keeping the grass up in practice in case of heavy winds but after they were cut on Wed for the Pro/Am they were the same and watching a couple closely on thurs/fri as well as speaking to a couple of players and caddies nothing had changed.
 If only we had the benefit of watching from a distance or on TV we might have seen how good they really were!? LOL
PS at no stage were we speaking about downhill downwind slick putts wandering a touch as mentioned by whoever.
 

[Jon Wiggett]

Andrew,


I was not suggesting that what you said was wrong just that I did not see nor hear of such. To the best of my knowledge the greens were not cut on Thursday or Friday due to concerns about the weather which was proven a sensible move.


Jon

[BCrosby]

First, I agree with Mark Pearce above. I'm not sure why it should matter if CS has achieved peak green. Within certain limits, course conditioning shouldn't be a big deal. 

Second, concern with poa-less greens (or any other kind of pure green)  is a good example of why the Pearce thesis makes sense. Spending a lot of time and money trying to achieve perfect rolls seems to me to be misguided.

Let me try to make the point a different way. Here at a website devoted to golf architecture, we generally admire the odd contours and bounces on TOC or Crystal Downs or Dornorch or so forth. Part of the reason we like links-style courses is that they are unpredictable; they don't always reward the perfect shot. Playing outcomes can sometimes be "undeserved".

So why do we have a different standard for greens?

Bob     

[Sean_A]

Bob


Yours is an interesting theory, but I don't think anybody advocates fairways which are so badly damaged that balls roll against gravity...so it would seem less likely that folks would want bumpy greens.  Lets just say I wouldn't vote for you as Greens Chair 


Reducing poa in greens is a constant battle just to maintain status quo.  Stop attacking poa for a few years or encourage poa to grow can cause bumpy greens for years to come when the wet season hits.  I am not saying greens shouldn't have any poa...that is a pipe dream, but the goal for courses which naturally have fescues/fine bents should be fairways and greens which are predominately of those types of grass.  Why the devil would anybody advocate for something else when these types of courses are so rare? 


Ciao

[BCrosby]

Sean -

We criticize ANGC and its malign influence on the maintenance of golf courses.

Should we modify our concerns about perfectly maintained courses? ANGC maintenance practises are bad models for everything except greens, for which ANGC maintenance practises are excellent?

Greens, like fairways, have no duty to offer consistent and predictable outcomes. Stuff happens. You can get bad bounces on the former and bad rolls on the latter. That doesn't mean you don't maintain them; it means you don't worry overly much about making them perfect.

Bob

 

[Sean_A]

Bob


Well, I agree that seeking perfection is stupid, but I disagree about ANGC.  Its a copout to say ANGC is a "model".  If folks choose to make ANGC a model thats their truck.  Each club makes its own choices so blame the decision makers, not ANGC.


I don't wish to speak of duties, but common sense.  Why not make greens true, firm and reasonably fast?  Its not like I am asking for the earth or anything like typical US country club maintenance or costs.  I see plenty of greens in good nick at modest clubs.  All I am saying is that to keep good greens requires vigilence.  And if a club is blessed with a course that should have predominantly fescues and bents, the best way to provide good greens at reasonable cost is to reduce poa because poa requires more feeding, watering and cutting. Poa is relatively expensive to present in decent nick and can't compete with fescues/bents in wet weather (half the bloody year in the UK).  So why on earth would anybody encourage poa in these type of greens for the sake of a principle that there is no "duty to offer consistent and predictable outcomes"?  The unpredictability of design should come primarilyfrom the design, not bumpy greens and un-repaired divots. 


Ciao   

[James Brown]

I love this debate about green conditions and standards.  Best green conditions I have seen in Scotland were at Nairn over the years.  It seems to me splitting hairs over the differences between CS, Renaissance and the rest.  When the weather is cold and rainy, as it has been much of this year in Scotland, the conditions are generally worse than normal.

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