[Jim Franklin]

Also in Golf Digest's criteria it says how will a scratch player play a hole. I don't think any scratch player is going to have an issue with the forced carries or playability of Pine Valley. PV does not care, IMHO, about how a 20+ handicap will play a hole. The member guest there is the only event where I have seen multiple Walker Cup members play at same time. It is a golf club and it is all about the golf, great golf that is.

[Mac Plumart]

Whether you think Pine Valley is the best or not is up to your opinion and what criteria you use to make that evaluation.

I think it is true that Pine Valley's focus is on the low handicap player. However, I think the course is pretty darn playable for the hack. Now, the hack won't put up a low score...but the carries are not insane and the fairways are wide.  A hack can play Pine Valley.

[Jeff_Lewis]

Thanks for the heads-up Tom! I will fire up my DSL line and see what I can find there.

[Tom_Doak]

  A hack can play Pine Valley.

Not so much, unless the caddies are providing invaluable fore caddy assistance [which they are known to do].  For years the members were strongly discouraged from inviting anyone over a 10-handicap to play as their guest, and they abided by that rule for fear of getting on the wrong side of the chairman.

[Kalen Braley]

I think to clarify Mac's statement.  Some hacks can play it.

Players like Garland and myself are hacks and our matches over the years were never slow because we knew when to pick up or continue playing on and had a general sense of when we were just taking too long.  I have no doubt should the opportunity present itself to play PV that'd I'd be picking up on at least 2-3 holes...

[Mac Plumart]

Agree with that.

It depends on how you define hack, of course.

15 can play it and shoot below 100.

30 will pick up a few times, but when I was a 30...I picked up a few times on every course.

[William_G]

in this graduation season, If you consider that the "best" colleges have the best students,
you could make the analogy that PV is the best in that it has 18 "signature" holes,
that provides the greatest test for the best student's of the game of golf.....

[Sean_A]

I unfortunately didn't buy a yardage book, because I would love to see what the forced carry yardages are from the most forward set of tees and what the fairway widths are as well.

My impression was that the intimidation of the lesser golfer here was more in creating a frightening perception vs. actually asking them to do stuff they can't pull off. That distinction is significant to me.

Jeff:

You are generally correct that Pine Valley's carries are more intimidating than truly difficult.  If I recall correctly, there is only one carry longer than 150 yards, and most of the fairways are 55-70 yards wide.  What this proves is that anyone over a 12-handicap will struggle with carrying the ball consistently 150+ yards when the pressure is on.  It seems easy at first, until one misses a fairway ... then the grip becomes much tighter and the carries that much more difficult.

I agree...there is an element of continued pressure which can actually be difficult over the course of 18 holes.  Tobacco Road presents this visual intimidation and many golfers don't like it and can't cope...even though individually each shot is doable for most.


Ciao

[RSantangelo]

I just returned from being a guest at Pine Valley the last 2 days  -- my first time.  Wow...I feel very, very lucky. 

I do think modern technology has brought Pine Valley within the reach of a broad range of golfers and I do not think that is very well appreciated.  While the forced carries no doubt impact many golfers, that has been blunted by 100 years of equipment evolution and in general they are manageable. What remains is a truly magnificent and interesting golf course with amazing topography and ample fairways. 



What amazes me is folks playing Pine Valley in the early years with hickory shafts and the haskell balls --that is remarkable.  I understand from my host that the Regular Tees are a good approximation of the championship length at the time..6500+ yards to the front of the greens. 

[Willie_Dow]

Mark & T/P -


Being a rather long timer, non member, player of P/V, and looking for answers for this question - takes me back to when I was a single digit player to my 20 plus now - and looking at why it is still my number one track.


As I told Gil Hanse one evening at his dinner, when he asked me what was my definition of the best course design I replied that it was one that I could remember every hole after playing it for the first time.


P/V was one of those tracks.


Last time I played from the "senior tee box", it is still my #1 course.

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