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Cliff Hamm

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Architecture, spectators, and the U.S. Open
« on: June 20, 2015, 11:02:42 AM »
No matter what one thinks of Chambers Bay,it was never meant to hold a PGA tournament or US  Open despite the developer's goal.. The artificial dunes are too dangerous for spectators to be on.


There are no spectators lining the fairways or surrounding the greens with the exceptions of bleachers.  It is bizarre to me that there are no spectators on the eighth hole. I do believe though that this also happened on the 16th at Meriion. Many comments have been made that this is more like a British Open from the style of the course. I might add that this includes the plethora of bleachers.


Architecture certainly effects what courses can hold a tournament. Some courses, such as Pine Valley,simply cannot accommodate the crowds of big time tournament golf. Some courses as great as they may be are just too short.


Chambers Bay certainly does not look like the typical U.S. Open course. Unfortunately this includes the look and sound of the gallery.  We'll see today and tomorrow but the roars just did not seem as loud with the exception of "go in the hole". ]Make no mistake I am enjoying a different kind of course for the U.S. Open but I'm glad  i'm watching it on television rather than in person.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2015, 11:05:37 AM by Cliff Hamm »
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Emile Bonfiglio

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Re: Architecture, spectators, and the U.S. Open
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2015, 11:52:37 AM »
I spent all day Friday at the course and from a spectator's view it horrible ( I actually really like playing the course ). The routing does not allow you follow any group of players with any level of consistency. With the limited view area (most are obstructed by the dunes) you have to be in a spot hours before the group you are following comes through or you can't see them. I bought trophy room tickets so I could watch on TV, but that tent was on the highest/furthest point on the property, a mile away from the general tent/merchandise area, not an easy place to just pop into. If the US Open or any tourney came back I would not attend.
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Howard Riefs

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Re: Architecture, spectators, and the U.S. Open
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2015, 02:51:37 PM »
Sports Illustrated's Michael Bamberger concurs...

http://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/chambers-bay-a-gorgeous-flawed-us-open-host

In memory serves, the 5th hole was inaccessible to spectators at Pebble in 2010.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2015, 02:59:08 PM by Howard Riefs »
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"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Niall C

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Re: Architecture, spectators, and the U.S. Open
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2015, 09:18:18 AM »
It's interesting how some old classic courses that weren't designed with spectating in mind, are more suited to it than modern courses that were built with the intention of hosting championship golf. Another example is probably Balmedie International as we will probably find out if/when the Scottish Open goes there. BTW has that been officially announced yet ?

Niall
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Brent Hutto

Re: Architecture, spectators, and the U.S. Open
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2015, 09:27:42 AM »
 There are plenty of modern courses which do spectator  golf right.  TPC Sawgrass comes to mind.

 The problem with Chambers Bay isn't that it's a modern spectator golf course.  The problem is it is a modern spectator golf course that serves its purpose badly.

 The modern trend that Chambers Bay exemplifies is not purpose built championship spectator courses.  Jeff W has it right as usual.  The trend is for repeated climbs  to have vantage points  reifying views over all other considerations.

 Which ito my view, pun intended, is yet another way in which the ascendance of cart golf has influenced the game.
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Brent Hutto

Re: Architecture, spectators, and the U.S. Open
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2015, 09:38:09 AM »
For a fun thought experiment  try to imagine what Pete Dye might have done given that gravel pit and a remit  to create a bold large-scale U.S. Open specific venue.
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William_G

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Re: Architecture, spectators, and the U.S. Open
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2015, 09:58:18 AM »
every time we've played Chambers Bay, no one has ever understood how spectators would be able to watch the US Open

I'm surprised more stands weren't erected even though there are lots of stands
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It's all about the golf!

Joe Hancock

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Re: Architecture, spectators, and the U.S. Open
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2015, 10:07:01 AM »
Quote from: Brent Hutto on June 21, 2015, 09:38:09 AM
For a fun thought experiment  try to imagine what Pete Dye might have done given that gravel pit and a remit  to create a bold large-scale U.S. Open specific venue.

I'm imagining Whistling Straits.....
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" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Architecture, spectators, and the U.S. Open
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2015, 11:02:11 AM »
Quote from: Joe Hancock on June 21, 2015, 10:07:01 AM
Quote from: Brent Hutto on June 21, 2015, 09:38:09 AM
For a fun thought experiment  try to imagine what Pete Dye might have done given that gravel pit and a remit  to create a bold large-scale U.S. Open specific venue.

I'm imagining Whistling Straits.....

Totally different sites.  Imagine WS on the side of a soup bowl and you get CB. 

Everyone seems to forget, or doesn't realize, the severity of this site, partcularly the amount of elevation change packed into a confined area.

Sven
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"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Jon Wiggett

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Re: Architecture, spectators, and the U.S. Open
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2015, 01:56:38 AM »
I was amazed how few spectators were there for the last day.
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Sven Nilsen

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Re: Architecture, spectators, and the U.S. Open
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2015, 02:15:59 AM »
Quote from: Jon Wiggett on June 22, 2015, 01:56:38 AM
I was amazed how few spectators were there for the last day.


Sure didn't seem that way being there.


Was this based on TV viewing?
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"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Mike Erdmann

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Re: Architecture, spectators, and the U.S. Open
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2015, 02:28:49 AM »
Quote from: Jon Wiggett on June 22, 2015, 01:56:38 AM
I was amazed how few spectators were there for the last day.


Wouldn't be surprised if quite a few ticket holders never bothered showing up for the weekend.  A couple friends of mine had four-day passes, but got so frustrated after Thursday & Friday that they bailed on the weekend.  Evidently it was pretty common to wait 60-90 minutes to even get into the bleachers. 
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Jon Wiggett

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Re: Architecture, spectators, and the U.S. Open
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2015, 02:30:48 AM »
Sven,

yes on the telly the crowds looked pretty sparse.

Jon
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Matthew Essig

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Re: Architecture, spectators, and the U.S. Open
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2015, 03:59:07 PM »
They let spectators go to places that were roped off the first three days on several holes. The USGA must have taken note of the spectator outrage and made changes for the final round.
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"Good GCA should offer an interesting golfing challenge to the golfer not a difficult golfing challenge." Jon Wiggett

Howard Riefs

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Re: Architecture, spectators, and the U.S. Open
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2015, 04:51:38 PM »
The spectator experience sounds horrible.

“I’ve been to 10 majors, including four U.S. Opens, and this was the worst fan experience,” said John Woodin, 63, of Bellevue. “This was an embarrassment.”


Seattle Times

Golf Digest


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"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Jud_T

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Re: Architecture, spectators, and the U.S. Open
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2015, 05:03:58 PM »
Aside from the Masters, which limits patrons, when was the last time anyone went to a Major that was a "good viewing experience"?  I was at the final day of Tiger/Sergio at the '99 PGA at Medinah, a venue as good as any for hosting one of these pigs, and after waiting an hour on the 3rd tee for the leaders to come through we wandered the course for a while and ended up watching on the big screen in the tent.  Ever since I've sworn that I'll only attend amateur or women's events (I did sit in a tent on 18 at the PGA at Oakland Hills for a corporate event and proceeded to get caught in a torrential rainstorm walking back to the car and had an expensive watch ruined.  That's what Mother Nature gave me for going against my edict).
« Last Edit: June 22, 2015, 05:08:08 PM by Jud_T »
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Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Wade Whitehead

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Re: Architecture, spectators, and the U.S. Open
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2015, 05:10:07 PM »
Quote from: Jud_T on June 22, 2015, 05:03:58 PM
Aside from the Masters, which limits patrons, when was the last time anyone went to a Major that was a "good viewing experience"?  I was at the final day of Tiger/Sergio at the '99 PGA at Medinah, a venue as good as any for hosting one of these pigs, and after waiting an hour on the 3rd tee for the leaders to come through we wandered the course for a while and ended up watching on the big screen in the tent.  Ever since I've sworn that I'll only attend amateur or women's events (I did sit in a tent on 18 at the PGA at Oakland Hills for a corporate event and proceeded to get caught in a torrential rainstorm walking back to the car and had an expensive watch ruined.  That's what Mother Nature gave me for going against my edict).

Majors on Thursday and Friday can be a lot of fun.  Twice as many players and split tees mean more of the golf course is in play and with lots more action.

Merion on Friday was terrific two years ago (though ticket numbers were limited).

On the weekend, I'll take television every time.

WW
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Joe Stansell

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Re: Architecture, spectators, and the U.S. Open
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2015, 05:33:00 PM »
I attended every day of this year's Championship. I followed one group (Ryan Moore) for about 6 holes, and was able to do that only because it was very late in the day on Thursday. It was, to say the least, quite difficult. (Hands down worse than when I attended the 2012 US Open at the Olympic Club.)

This facility is great, though, if you're willing to find a seat with a good set of binoculars and just watch groups come through. But unfortunately, the USGA completely underestimated the demand for seating, so ridiculously long lines developed many hours too early on just about every hole. They better do better if there is a next time.



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