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Richard Choi

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Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
9th Hole, 220/200 yards, Par 3 New
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2015, 12:47:07 PM »


Drop Shot Par 3


It is one of those golf architecture subjects where the general golfing public disagree sharply with those who share their opinions on this site.

It is easy to see why Joe the Golfer enjoys playing a drop shot par 3. A significant change in elevation means you have an excellent view of the ground around you from the tee. Many of the most admired drop shot par 3’s have gorgeous views of the ocean, mountains, or valleys (and frequently photographed). The tee shots are easier since the elevation change carries the ball further. Even if you don’t make the best contact, there is a good chance that you can advance the ball significantly.

The reason why most erudite posters around here do not favor drop shot par 3’s (as usual) is they lack strategy. Playing a drop shot par 3’s is like throwing a dart. With receptive greens (true for most courses), these par 3’s are very two dimensional. All you have to do is find out where the pin is and try to hit the pin since the ball will stick where they land. Just like throwing a dart at a bulls eye, there is no thinking involved.

In my opinion, #9 at Chambers is a rare drop shot par 3 that is not only beautiful enough to inspire Joe the Golfer, but possesses enough strategic depth to be enjoyed by beard pullers.

The first point is obvious enough from the pictures. Add sea, dotted with islands, with intricately shaped bunker surrounding the green, and it is hard not to come up with a drop dead gorgeous hole.

But the beauty is not skin deep. While it is true that point-and-shoot is in play, especially for the front pin locations, for more difficult pin locations, aiming at the pin is not the advised play. Even under normal, everyday conditions (firmer than usual greens), there are places that will reject any shot towards it. The only way you can get your ball close to the pin is to use the contours of the sideboards and green to coax the ball towards the pin. This is something that is very unusual for a green with this much elevation change. I certainly have not experience another like it in my travels.

US Open Changes

There has been some minor reshaping of the edges to better hold balls on the green, but they are not really important.

There is a change on this hole that is my favorite change planned for US Open – a brand new tee.


You can see from the overhead view, there are two completely different tee grounds. The first (White Tee) is the normal tee ground high above the green on the southeast corner of the property. From here you have a 80 (!!!) feet drop to the green. The second tee (Yellow Tee) is located in the practice green area next to the turn house. This tee is about 10 feet below the green, making this the only uphill par 3 on the course.

This is a completely different hole from these tees and I think that is fabulous. I just wish they would open the lower tee for every day play (which they have not done – but I have played the hole from down there…).

High Tee Shot


From the high tee ground, you have a wonderful view of the green against a gorgeous background of Puget Sound. Watching a majestic tee shot fly high above the sound (and take forever to fall, and take even longer to traverse down the side slope and across the green) is very inspiring. From aesthetics point of view, this hole is nothing but pleasure.

From a strategic point of view, this should scare players plenty.


The front pin (4) is benign enough. Most players will be hitting a mid-iron and if you can land your ball on the flat part of the front green (A), your ball should stay in this section and should leave you with a very makeable birdie try. Under normal conditions, landing on the front side slope (B) is great fun as ball will bounce gently towards the pin and roll across the green short of the bunkers on the right (E). Many a hole in ones have been made here this way. Under US Open conditions, the same shot will be watched in horror as it will bounce violently across the green straight into the bunker (E) where it may end up in downslope near the edges. There is no bailout on this hole for US Open.

Things get worse as you move further back. There is a nasty little flat spot (pin position #1) where everything slopes away. It is almost impossible to get your ball anywhere near this spot. If you land just short, it will be redirected right and if you land just long, it will end up in the back bunker (G) or rough (D).

A pin spot just left (#2) is no cakewalk as you need to bounce the ball short of the ridge in the middle of the green and roll it up towards the sideboard (C) on the left. This is going to be very difficult as the distance and shot shape control will have to be exact.

The pin on the right (#3) will be easier in comparison, but you will still need to hit away from the pin to the left and take advantage of the left to right slope to get the ball close to the pin. Anything directly at it will either go over the green or end up in the side bunker (F).

This tee shot is going to cause a lot of problems for players.

Low Tee Shot


This tee shot is completely opposite from the high tee shot. The view is intimidating as all you see in front of you is a wall of sand. You have absolutely no view of the green. Everything you see screams “Don’t miss short!”.

However, strategically this is a much friendlier proposition. As long as you carry the bunker in front (E, F), there is very little trouble as the sideboard behind the green (B, C) will gently cradle balls that skip across the green (you don’t want to land here, though). Almost all pin (other than #1) position is accessible to you. There will be plenty of birdies made from this tee shot.

Around the Green


Most of the (left and right) misses will end up in the bunker right of the green (E). As long as you have a decent lie, this is not a very hard shot to execute as you have some safety in the sideboards. Most misses here should still have a good chance at making a par.

If you miss long, however, any number is in play. The back half of the green runs front to back and there is nothing to stop your ball going down the hill (D) far below the green with terrible rocky lie. From here, just trying to keep the ball on the green is going to be a challenge let alone trying to hit it close to the pin as everything is running away from you. You may have to play towards the front fairway just to have a reasonable shot coming back.

Putting


There are three main features that dominate putting on this green. First is the ridge that bisects the green into front and back. The ridge is about a foot in elevation (decreases as it goes across the green to right). If you are not on the same side of the pin with this ridge, making a birdie is not a realistic prospect. The second is the general left to right tilt of the green. Putting across this tilt is difficult as the ball breaks more than it may first appear. This is especially true for #1 and #2 pin positions. If you are putting from the front part of the green to these pin positions (most likely), there may be up to 3 or 4 feet of left to right break. Birdies will be very, very rare.


The third complication is the hump in the middle of the back part of the green. Any putt that goes across it will be difficult as it will reroute your putt left or right significantly. If you are going up hill on this hump, you need to make sure you have enough pace to clear it. If you are going down on this hump, you really will not have much choice but try to just keep the putt on the green.


I believe depending on the pin position and tee, there will be days where many birdies will be made here. But other days… there will be pain.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2015, 06:19:37 PM by Richard Choi »

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 9th Hole, 220/200 yards, Par 3
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2015, 01:05:46 PM »
...
You can see from the overhead view, there are two completely different tee grounds. The first (White Tee) is the normal tee ground high above the green on the southeast corner of the property. From here you have a 25~30 feet drop to the green. ...

According to Jay Blasi, it is an 80 foot drop to the green. And, that is before they built another back tee, a little higher, and a little farther back.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Photo Tour - Chambers Bay - US Open Edition - 9th Hole
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2015, 02:14:36 PM »
Corrected!

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Photo Tour - Chambers Bay - US Open Edition - 9th Hole
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2015, 02:35:49 PM »
wow, never even been over by that new tee area, could be good
It's all about the golf!

Matt Bielawa

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Photo Tour - Chambers Bay - US Open Edition - 9th Hole
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2015, 02:53:11 PM »
Caddies are going to LOVE the walk up the hill or down the hill to the alternate tee.  Even more so on the Thursday or Friday when they're playing #9 as their last hole of the day.  Chambers is one tough walk, and I remember the walk to the 9th tee being one of the more grueling ones.

I've been wondering how spectators will navigate that corner of the property, or even if they'll be allowed on any parts of the 8th hole? 

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Photo Tour - Chambers Bay - US Open Edition - 9th Hole
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2015, 03:58:34 PM »
Caddies are going to LOVE the walk up the hill or down the hill to the alternate tee.  Even more so on the Thursday or Friday when they're playing #9 as their last hole of the day.  Chambers is one tough walk, and I remember the walk to the 9th tee being one of the more grueling ones.

I've been wondering how spectators will navigate that corner of the property, or even if they'll be allowed on any parts of the 8th hole? 

These people are professionals. They will find the walk to be a breeze.

There is a section on top of the hill above the ninth tee where spectators regularly congregate, and often comment on shots of the everyday players. When I played there with Mark Saltzman, he hit it very close from the back tee and received accolades from the spectators. I suspect there will be bleachers there.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Brent Carlson

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Re: Photo Tour - Chambers Bay - US Open Edition - 9th Hole
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2015, 05:53:49 PM »
This hole is a great opportunity to get a hole in one.  Many have happened here.

Nice green but there are too many drop shot par 3s at Chambers.

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Photo Tour - Chambers Bay - US Open Edition - 9th Hole
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2015, 06:02:18 PM »

Nice green but there are too many drop shot par 3s at Chambers.

2/4?
It's all about the golf!

Jon Cavalier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Photo Tour - Chambers Bay - US Open Edition - 9th Hole
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2015, 06:12:11 PM »
Really enjoyed this hole. Exciting par 3.



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Brent Carlson

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Re: Photo Tour - Chambers Bay - US Open Edition - 9th Hole
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2015, 07:20:01 PM »

Nice green but there are too many drop shot par 3s at Chambers.

2/4?

3/4.  9, 15 and 17 are all drop shot.  The alternate tee on 9 would alter that for public play.

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Photo Tour - Chambers Bay - US Open Edition - 9th Hole
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2015, 07:46:07 PM »
I don't think 17 is going to play as a drop shot for US Open.

John Kirk

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Re: Photo Tour - Chambers Bay - US Open Edition - 9th Hole
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2015, 11:47:22 PM »
How hard do people consider this hole?  From the original high tee, it seems that a slight pull often hits the side slope and careens hard to the right, and well into the right greenside bunker complex.  Even an unlucky shot that lands in the middle of the green can bound hard to the right.

From the new tee box, the hole will play into the giant backstop.  From there, I think it will be significantly easier.

To summarize, this hole is very severe.  I expect to see some wild bounces here.

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Photo Tour - Chambers Bay - US Open Edition - 9th Hole
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2015, 12:45:11 AM »
Are there any 80' drop shots on the main tours?  If the wind is up I predict this will be very difficult.

Matthew Essig

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Re: Photo Tour - Chambers Bay - US Open Edition - 9th Hole
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2015, 01:17:50 AM »

Nice green but there are too many drop shot par 3s at Chambers.

2/4?

3/4.  9, 15 and 17 are all drop shot.  The alternate tee on 9 would alter that for public play.

I don't think 17 is going to play as a drop shot for US Open.

On 17, from the lower right tee to the upper right section of the green there is virtually no elevation change.

The massive drops on 9 and 15 might create a false reality of drop-shot overload.

I sometimes imagine what it would be like if 12 was a long uphill par 3 to the punchbowl. It would add more variety to the set of par 3s. It could also eliminate the weird teeing stalemate between 12 and 15, too, by shifting all of 12's tees to the northern hillside.
"Good GCA should offer an interesting golfing challenge to the golfer not a difficult golfing challenge." Jon Wiggett

Jon Wiggett

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Re: Photo Tour - Chambers Bay - US Open Edition - 9th Hole
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2015, 03:50:07 AM »
What is the reasoning behind the new tee. Is it to allow for more spectators maybe? Nice looking hole from the angle in Jon's first photo.

Jon

Matt Bielawa

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Re: Photo Tour - Chambers Bay - US Open Edition - 9th Hole
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2015, 08:50:20 AM »
What is the reasoning behind the new tee. Is it to allow for more spectators maybe? Nice looking hole from the angle in Jon's first photo.

Jon

Whether it's the reason or not, it would certainly be a benefit.  I would think it gives them more flexibility with varying wind conditions too?  Are there ever days that the wind blows out to the Sound, making #9 downwind?  I would think it would be darned near unplayable with a wind like that, and the other tee would fix that?
« Last Edit: April 03, 2015, 08:52:47 AM by Matt Bielawa »

Jason Thurman

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Re: Photo Tour - Chambers Bay - US Open Edition - 9th Hole
« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2015, 09:17:52 AM »
Richard, I'm starting to notice a lot of places at Chambers Bay where mounding and sideboards around the greens can redirect balls differently for different types of players. It looks like a lot of the banks around greens would send a high trajectory shot, presumably from a stronger player, ricocheting past the target while perhaps feeding a lower trajectory shot more gently. It also seems like those banks would allow for some short game options for players who miss the green in a spot that makes using the slope a possibility and who need a little margin for error on their chips/pitches (and who have the creativity to use the feeding slopes).

Are these impressions accurate? Is it fair to say Chambers Bay accommodates savvy but weaker players better than the average US Open-caliber test as a result?
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Photo Tour - Chambers Bay - US Open Edition - 9th Hole
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2015, 11:43:56 AM »
Whether it's the reason or not, it would certainly be a benefit.  I would think it gives them more flexibility with varying wind conditions too?  Are there ever days that the wind blows out to the Sound, making #9 downwind?  I would think it would be darned near unplayable with a wind like that, and the other tee would fix that?

The east wind is quite rare and usually happens early in the morning. By the time you get to the 9th hole, the wind switches. More likely wind is the Northeast wind, which could make this shot more difficult for the pros, but it should be manageable with the sideboards.

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Photo Tour - Chambers Bay - US Open Edition - 9th Hole
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2015, 11:47:42 AM »
What is the reasoning behind the new tee. Is it to allow for more spectators maybe? Nice looking hole from the angle in Jon's first photo.

I believe the reasoning is what Brent referred to; too many drop shot par 3's. #9, #15, and #17 all have drop shot tees (originally) and it was one of the biggest weakness for the course. To introduce more variety they added a level (and longer) tee box for #17.

Another reason may be that, depending on how firm the course is playing, this hole could become almost unplayable. Of course, you can just move up the tee box (and easier pins) in those cases, but having another, lower tee from an easier angle probably gives USGA more flexibility.

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Photo Tour - Chambers Bay - US Open Edition - 9th Hole
« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2015, 11:55:08 AM »
Richard, I'm starting to notice a lot of places at Chambers Bay where mounding and sideboards around the greens can redirect balls differently for different types of players. It looks like a lot of the banks around greens would send a high trajectory shot, presumably from a stronger player, ricocheting past the target while perhaps feeding a lower trajectory shot more gently. It also seems like those banks would allow for some short game options for players who miss the green in a spot that makes using the slope a possibility and who need a little margin for error on their chips/pitches (and who have the creativity to use the feeding slopes).

Are these impressions accurate? Is it fair to say Chambers Bay accommodates savvy but weaker players better than the average US Open-caliber test as a result?

Yes, those impressions are accurate.

Under normal conditions, Chambers Bay plays easier than it looks because of those sideboards (Leary's biggest complaint about CB). If you know the course well and are experienced in how those sideboards play, you can easily shave a few shots during your round. It will also help many topped or thined shots around the green hit by high-mid handicappers as well.

Personally, I just think they are cool because you can hit shots that you would never even dream of on normal courses. There is something very satisfying and fun about taking a very circuitous route to your target.

For US Open or for scratch players, they are not as fun as their misses are not so bad that they need sideboards to catch them and they abhor anything other than direct routes to the target.

Matthew Essig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Photo Tour - Chambers Bay - US Open Edition - 9th Hole
« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2015, 12:55:32 PM »
I believe the biggest reason the new tee was added is because the back left part of the green (marked with the 2 on the green drawing) became either impossible or nearly impossible to get anywhere near during the US Am with the increased firmness and speed. The USGA recognized that it is a hole location that can't go unused due to its complexity, so added the lower tee.

The next biggest reason is the ability to fill more of the hillside with spectators.

Eliminating a drop shot par 3 was quite possibly a reason, but I don't think it was very important in the new tee decision.

-------------

Any breeze coming from the eastern hemisphere of the compass is very very rare. If it ever does, is comes from straight east early in the morning around sunrise (like Choi said) or something that could be possible in June is an east breeze that blows all day brings in a heat wave from east of the mountains.

The weather is still the great unknown still. It could be 70 and sunny all four days. It could be 60 and drizzling all four days. It could be half and half or maybe just cloudy all four days. The could be an unexpected marine layer that brings fog one morning. There is a slim chance for an unexpected late Spring thunderstorm in the afternoon one day. An east breeze could bring in a heat wave one or two days. Maybe a combination of some. Then throw in the chance of wind in ANY of those possibilities (during the US Am, the windy day was a sunny day, and the breezy day was a cloudy day). There is no telling what it will do as there could be all four seasons in just a single day or over the course of the week; however, I give the chance of a stoppage of play at about 1%. Players and spectators should pack accordingly if they didn't know.
"Good GCA should offer an interesting golfing challenge to the golfer not a difficult golfing challenge." Jon Wiggett

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Photo Tour - Chambers Bay - US Open Edition - 9th Hole
« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2015, 03:41:28 PM »

Nice green but there are too many drop shot par 3s at Chambers.

2/4?

3/4.  9, 15 and 17 are all drop shot.  The alternate tee on 9 would alter that for public play.


I believe the reasoning is what Brent referred to; too many drop shot par 3's. #9, #15, and #17 all have drop shot tees (originally) and it was one of the biggest weakness for the course. To introduce more variety they added a level (and longer) tee box for #17.

...

17 always has had a back tee that plays level. It certainly was there when GCA played the preview round before the course opened.
I guess Brent just can't hit it that far. ;)
« Last Edit: April 03, 2015, 03:46:40 PM by GJ Bailey »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Richard Choi

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Re: Photo Tour - Chambers Bay - US Open Edition - 9th Hole
« Reply #23 on: April 03, 2015, 04:48:02 PM »
17 always has had a back tee that plays level. It certainly was there when GCA played the preview round before the course opened.
I guess Brent just can't hit it that far. ;)

No it did not. The new tee was added for Amateur. It added about 40 yards to the hole.

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Photo Tour - Chambers Bay - US Open Edition - 9th Hole
« Reply #24 on: April 03, 2015, 04:50:02 PM »
Eliminating a drop shot par 3 was quite possibly a reason, but I don't think it was very important in the new tee decision.

Here are the quotes from Mike Davis.

“If you think about the par-3s at Chambers Bay, just about every one plays downhill and that is the reason we are playing No. 17 from the lower tee every day,’ Davis said. “We don’t think every par-3 should be a downhill shot.”

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