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Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Defense..........at what price ?
« on: April 25, 2003, 07:24:16 PM »
Today, at the Coleman Invitational at Seminole, a very good player hit the par 5, 3rd hole in two........... and made 8.

Years ago, the Lower course at Baltusrol was set up harder for an amateur event then it was for the US Opens, and one of the rounds was held at alternate shot.

To what extremes will clubs go to defend par ?

Why are green speeds allowed to be beyond the caliber of the players competing's ability to manage them ?
At what point does defending par become excessive ?

What is gained by setting up a golf course to the degree that it can only embarrass the amateur competitors in the event ?

What is the thinking behind these course set ups ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »

ian

Re: Defense..........at what price ?
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2003, 07:35:22 PM »
That green you mentioned has a massive right to left cross-fall. Anything left will roll off the left and down a very steep sparse bank that sends the ball into the trees well below the green. He may have hit a putt and been unplayable the next.

The green is the only real defence of the hole, but it is unfair when the speeds are fast. What do you do? Rebuild an origional? Bunker left? Clear the trees? Live with it? I don't know, the green just is what it is. I found at Seminole it was often prudent to be short on purpose. If your used to three, would you simply play defencively to avoid being above the cup?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re: Defense..........at what price ?
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2003, 07:55:49 PM »
Ian Andrew,

I believe that the green was recontoured, with some of the pitch removed, in light of faster speeds, not long ago.

When you play short, eventually you have to attack or aim at the pin.  Others who employed your strategy ended up exactly where you indicated.

Playing short ony forstalls the inevitable.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Defense..........at what price ?
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2003, 08:10:50 PM »
Patrick -- What were the scores at the Coleman? And, are you saying for the record that an 8 is embarrassing?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

TEPaul

Re: Defense..........at what price ?
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2003, 03:30:44 AM »
"What is gained by setting up a golf course to the degree that it can only embarrass the amateur competitors in the event?"

Wailing and gnashing of teeth is gained.

"What is the thinking behind these course set ups?"

The thinking is if you can create enough wailing and gnashing of teeth you can prove what a great and difficult golf course you have. This was not the first time the best play at the Coleman was purposely coming up short of various greens and not the first time the course was set up extremely difficult and it probably won't be the last time.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: Defense..........at what price ?
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2003, 05:36:06 AM »
I personally enjoy seeing the top 2 percentile's realization that their expectation was way too high. That six putt must have left that guy reeling.

 What did he make on the next hole?


Somehow I sense this is really a post about "unfair" conditions.  I reject that premise, since we all tee it up on the same day, same course.

Besides, if man's scientific knowledge can be optimized to enhance technology, why shouldn't motha nature be able to give it all she's got?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Defense..........at what price ?
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2003, 05:41:49 AM »
Everyone loves an accident -- so long as no one is seriously hurt.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re: Defense..........at what price ?
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2003, 07:06:58 AM »
Forrest Richardson,

I'm saying that hitting a par 5 in two and making 8 is embarrassing.

A Clayman,

There comes a time, when green speeds on pitched greens are so high that the green becomes unplayable.

The question is, why is there a need to do this ?
Why is there a need to even approach that point ?
What purpose does it serve ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Defense..........at what price ?
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2003, 07:18:55 AM »
In some cases, the other 17 greens might not be very challenging without that speed, so a sacrifice is made....I'm not familiar with Seminole's greens ( haven't played ), so I don't know if this is the case here....

TEPaul, would this be the reverse of Mr. Curry's green speed philosophy?

Joe

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re: Defense..........at what price ?
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2003, 07:39:23 AM »
Joe Hancock,

I think one could say that all the greens are pitched, some more so than others, some dramatically.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Defense..........at what price ?
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2003, 07:50:03 AM »
"TEPaul, would this be the reverse of Mr. Curry's green speed philosophy?"

Joe:

Yes, it would. Or it would be the beginning of going in the reverse of the "Steve Curry Greenspeed Method". It appears in Seminole's case, given the example Pat Mucci supplied, Seminole is only applying 17/18th of the "Steve Curry Greenspeed Method" at best or the revolutionary "17/18 Steve Curry Greenspeed Method with the 1/18 embarrass the hell out of very good amateurs and make them wail and gnash their teeth Method". A club like this could also try to up that latter factor to say 4/18th or 6/18th or even 9/18 to see if they could manage to get their competitors to take 6-7 hours per round and still manage to play a full 18 hole competitive round before darkness. There're all kinds of interesting tournament set-ups available today!

There's another tournament set-up I'm working on right now called the "See if you can get as many competitors as possible to lose every single ball in their bag before the end of the round so they can be disqualified for violating the "one ball rule" or failing to complete the stipuleted round Method". The latter is designed to acheive extreme difficulty and to make members backslapping proud of their course and and at the same time to complete the day's play before midnight.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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