[Melvyn Morrow]

Tom

A good idea but any thing to do with Old Tom now commands big bucks. Collectors fall over themselves trying to discover the whereabouts of items and the family and private collectors do not want to be known as holding them.

I like the idea of a central or national archives for all important and historical items on golf, plus a history on each club both current and closed. Alas I do not see that happening due to the Collectors. This does not just apply to Old Tom but across the whole face of the early game.

Just think if a single Old Tom golf club can sell for £70,000 what would other items fetch on the open market. We need a Paul Getty Museum of Golf to be able to afford to buy let alone house a collection. But in my eyes not a bad thing.

Melvyn

[Kyle Harris]

It is certainly reasonable to say that Park may have been the first to comprehensively defend par at the green and allow the natural topography of the ground to dictate the challenge from tee to green.

He certainly has a knack for "building" features into the putting green that placed emphasis on correctly overcoming the natural topography found down the fairway.

[Rich Goodale]

David Stamm:

If you're really talking about an overall impact on the GAME I think something like administration (Rules, national golf associations etc) should probably be included and if it was a guy like C.B. Macdonald would certainly rise in consideration. And don't forget, in golf architecture, Macdonald probably did the most with the idea of copying holes or architectural principles of holes, certainly a most important idea at least.

Interesting, Tom

Was there anything specific that CBM did regarding the Rules that was at all important, other than effectively submitting to joint R&A jursidiction?

Rich

PS--as to the topic, I think that of the greats only Ross matches Willie in his straddling of both the pre- and post-Haskell eras.  Macdonald did chronologically, but as he was in the golfing wilderness (USA) in the most important years of that time (i.e. 1890-1905) I discount him (for the purposes of this discussion).

rfg

[Steve Salmen]

Archie Baird, the noted golf historian, married Willie Park's granddaughter.  He runs a small museum adjacent to the pro shop at Gullane.  If arrangements are made, he will meet with you and answer anything you'd like to know about Mr. Park.

[TEPaul]

Richard the Confused:

C.B. Macdonald's time in the wilderness did not end over here in 1905, it essentially ended according to him as the result of the Columbia Exposition in Chicago in 1893 when some devoted golfers came over here for it and began to interest Chicago (with him) in golf. He consequently built the first eighteen hole golf course in America in 1895 you historical dolt!!

His curious machinations in the first two non-official US Amateurs (according to him) at Newport and St. Andrews a few months later precipitated the founding of the USGA and the US Amateur as an officially sanctioned tournament.

Macdonald was one of a few tapped to write the USGA by-laws and with another man named Laurence Curtis was asked to administer the Rules for the USGA which he did for many years. He was also on the R&A Rules of Golf Committee but one shouldn't say he was dictated to by the R&A in the context of the Rules. The R&A was actually something of an unwilling entity to run golf's rules and what Macdonald was interested in via the Rules was simply creating a unified code and system in America with the R&A. In that vein he did often consult on various Rules questions with some of his friends over there such as Horace Hutchinson and  a few others.

The knock on Macdonald as being dictated to by the R&A on the Rules really came from Walter Travis over the infamous Schnectedy Putter thing that lasted a number of years. But had Travis bothered to analyze the position Macdonald took via the Schnectedy Putter thing with the R&A and USGA he would've seen Macdonald actually supported him and his Schnectedy putter.

Perhaps inhaling the stench-like aroma of too many cowpies over there is effecting your thinking ability! 

[Jay Carstens]

If I remember correctly, Park may have also been one of the first real "practicers" of the game, said ocassionally to spend an entire day on the practice green preparing for competitions.

[Mark Chaplin]

Phillip Young makes a compelling case for Tillinghast but this appears to be made on the US principle that a world championship is for the USA and the odd Canadian entrant. Tillinghast clearly made an impact on US & Canadian GCA but his work stops there.

CBM visited the UK played St Andrews and the great links and used them in his work.

Willie Park jnr travelled when UK and Europe wasn't 8 hours in a 747 and created world class courses on both sides of the pond.

[Rich Goodale]

David - Interestingly, all of Palmer, Player and Nicklaus had club lines. They all claimed to be involved with club design, Palmer especially so.

I read an article a couple of years ago about Nicklaus and MacGregor. He was apparently quite the tyrant about the clubs they provided him for  tournament play. He also insisted on various design changes to their "Tourney" line.

Whether or not any of that counts as being a "clubmaker" I don't know.

Bob

http://www.miamivalleygolf.org/fw/main/MacGregor-in-Our-Area-3374.html

Bob

The above link is a fascinating history of Macgregor, with some interesting anecdotes about clubmakers.

Rich

[BCowan]

Great thread.

"Willie Park, Jr. - The Man Who Took Golf To The World," by Stephen Walter

Where do I find this book for sale?  I looked on amazon no luck.  What are the websites for hard to find Golf Books?

[Sven Nilsen]

Its available on Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Willie-Park-Junior-Took-World/dp/1905222211) and on Abes Books (http://www.abebooks.com/9781905222216/Willie-Park-Junior-Man-who-1905222211/plp).

Perhaps you misspelled something when you did your search.

[Niall C]

David Stamm:

If you're really talking about an overall impact on the GAME I think something like administration (Rules, national golf associations etc) should probably be included and if it was a guy like C.B. Macdonald would certainly rise in consideration. And don't forget, in golf architecture, Macdonald probably did the most with the idea of copying holes or architectural principles of holes, certainly a most important idea at least.

Interesting, Tom

Was there anything specific that CBM did regarding the Rules that was at all important, other than effectively submitting to joint R&A jursidiction?

Rich

PS--as to the topic, I think that of the greats only Ross matches Willie in his straddling of both the pre- and post-Haskell eras.  Macdonald did chronologically, but as he was in the golfing wilderness (USA) in the most important years of that time (i.e. 1890-1905) I discount him (for the purposes of this discussion).

rfg

Rich

I'm just a wee bit late to the discussion here but let me throw another hat in the ring for someone who straddled the course building business from the early days right through to the golden age, and that is Willie Fernie. Fernie was the main man for designing courses in the west before the boom of the 1890's and was still designing courses afterr WW11, albeit not in the same numbers.

Niall

[Tony_Muldoon]

Great thread.

"Willie Park, Jr. - The Man Who Took Golf To The World," by Stephen Walter

Where do I find this book for sale?  I looked on amazon no luck.  What are the websites for hard to find Golf Books?

Seriously this is a very poor book.

I  have heard rumours that Mungo Park a descendent is working on a book. 


http://www.golfcollectors.co.uk/u/cms/TTG_97_2011June.pdf#page=8
 
http://www.golfcollectors.co.uk/u/cms/TTG_85_2008June.pdf#page=40


http://www.golfcollectors.co.uk/u/cms/bgcs_anthology_2012.pdf#page=78


Also heard that the earlier Parks of Mussleburgh is a much finer effort but have never personbally seen a copy.

[Joe Bausch]

And I believe a Willie Park Society is coming along at some point.

[BCowan]

As much as anyone, I think Willie Park Jr. was the Father of the School of Naturalism in design.   I see him as a predecessor and direct ancestor to guys like Colt, Tillinghast, Crump, Wilson, and Fowler.

   If Mike is including natural hazards (gulleys) as being a part of School of Naturalism i would agree completely.  Park Jr could use natural gulleys to provide strategic choices for the golfer better or as good as any I've played.  Of course technology and the golf ball have kinda ruined this for better players, the average golfer still has to face them.  Here is a sketch of a short par 5 at a Park Jr course.  The shorter golfer has to determine whether or not to lay short of the gully on his 2nd shot or go over it for a simple chip/bunker shot for a birdie.
XXX indicate gulley's.  Lines represent a up-slope of a hill, 2nd shot is blinded by the hill for the shorter hitters.  Hole is 485 from the tips/ 460 from the members tees. 
   

[Tom_Doak]

I missed this thread the first time around but here are a few key quotes I've enjoyed:

He has a reputation as one of the best putters of all time.

 Park can best be described as an iconoclast.

It is certainly reasonable to say that Park may have been the first to comprehensively defend par at the green and allow the natural topography of the ground to dictate the challenge from tee to green.

He certainly has a knack for "building" features into the putting green that placed emphasis on correctly overcoming the natural topography found down the fairway.

As much as anyone, I think Willie Park Jr. was the Father of the School of Naturalism in design.   I see him as a predecessor and direct ancestor to guys like Colt, Tillinghast, Crump, Wilson, and Fowler.

From the sound of it I would really like the fellow.  No wonder I get along so well with Archie and Sheila Baird! 

I do remember writing this in The Confidential Guide about Weston in Toronto:

"I'm not too well versed on Willie Park's style of architecture, but I enjoyed his use of the rather severe terrain here -- in fact, the tee shot along the ridge at the 5th is probably the first piece of golf hole I would have found on the topo map, though I doubt most other architects would identify with it.  ...  The rolling property forces you to place the ball off the tee to get a good stance for your next shot -- the 6th and 12th holes are both good examples."

I guess I should make a point of seeking out some more of his work.

[Frank Giordano]

It's surprises me that Walter Travis has not yet been mentioned.

[John Crowley]

I missed this thread the first time around but here are a few key quotes I've enjoyed:

He has a reputation as one of the best putters of all time.

 Park can best be described as an iconoclast.

It is certainly reasonable to say that Park may have been the first to comprehensively defend par at the green and allow the natural topography of the ground to dictate the challenge from tee to green.

He certainly has a knack for "building" features into the putting green that placed emphasis on correctly overcoming the natural topography found down the fairway.

As much as anyone, I think Willie Park Jr. was the Father of the School of Naturalism in design.   I see him as a predecessor and direct ancestor to guys like Colt, Tillinghast, Crump, Wilson, and Fowler.

From the sound of it I would really like the fellow.  No wonder I get along so well with Archie and Sheila Baird! 

I do remember writing this in The Confidential Guide about Weston in Toronto:

"I'm not too well versed on Willie Park's style of architecture, but I enjoyed his use of the rather severe terrain here -- in fact, the tee shot along the ridge at the 5th is probably the first piece of golf hole I would have found on the topo map, though I doubt most other architects would identify with it.  ...  The rolling property forces you to place the ball off the tee to get a good stance for your next shot -- the 6th and 12th holes are both good examples."

I guess I should make a point of seeking out some more of his work.

Speaking of Archie, I wonder if he is still playing daily. I haven't seen him in a few years. Must be near 90 years of age.

Minneapolis Golf Club was laid out by Willie Jr. In 1916. Revised in 1920 by Donald Ross. A few years ago I did an analysis of the two plans and estimated that today's course is about 60% Park and 40% Ross. Ron Prichard did a "master plan" in about 2000 that was not fully implemented.
Geoff Cornish did some consulting in the mid-80s, mainly bunker changes.

[BCowan]

Great thread.

"Willie Park, Jr. - The Man Who Took Golf To The World," by Stephen Walter

Where do I find this book for sale?  I looked on amazon no luck.  What are the websites for hard to find Golf Books?

Seriously this is a very poor book.

I  have heard rumours that Mungo Park a descendent is working on a book. 


http://www.golfcollectors.co.uk/u/cms/TTG_97_2011June.pdf#page=8
 
http://www.golfcollectors.co.uk/u/cms/TTG_85_2008June.pdf#page=40


http://www.golfcollectors.co.uk/u/cms/bgcs_anthology_2012.pdf#page=78


Also heard that the earlier Parks of Mussleburgh is a much finer effort but have never personbally seen a copy.

Tony,

   thanks for your links.  Any word on Mungo's efforts?  I found a copy of  Park of Mussleburgh on amazon, although i didn't purchase it

 http://www.amazon.com/Parks-Musselburgh-Scottish-Golfing-Family/dp/0907186165/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1427423548&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=Parks+of+Mussleburgh

[Ryan Taylor]

Thanks for your links.  Any word on Mungo's efforts?  I found a copy of  Park of Mussleburgh on amazon, although i didn't purchase it.

BCowan,

I sent you a pm with Mungo's contact information. I'm sure Mungo will provide an update for you.

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