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Wayne_Kozun

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Re: The Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 44 Years
« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2020, 04:07:52 PM »
Everyone has their own faves - I would argue that Cabot Cliffs #16 isn't the best 16th hole at Cabot.  I think the Cabot Links 16th hole is a great hole and better, although less spectular, than its numbersake at the Cliffs.

John Kavanaugh

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Re: The Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 44 Years
« Reply #26 on: July 22, 2020, 07:09:45 PM »
18 architects chosen. Far more interesting than the choice of holes. Who is the most surprising omission?

John Kavanaugh

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Re: The Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 44 Years
« Reply #27 on: July 22, 2020, 07:37:20 PM »
I havenít played BlueJack National but how would you fit a hole the Tiger designed on this list. Of course this in no way requires that you kick off the architect of the corresponding hole. But you will have to reshuffle and kick someone off.


Lester George also sends me a Christmas card every year. So I wouldnít mind seeing him get some love.




Tom_Doak

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Re: The Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 44 Years
« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2020, 07:46:42 PM »
18 architects chosen. Far more interesting than the choice of holes. Who is the most surprising omission?


Well, Ran is probably off Rees Jones's Christmas card list now.


Now that I think about it, the designers listed are pretty much the group that have a course listed in the top 100, or seen as a contender, although often the hole chosen is not from their highest-ranked course

John Kirk

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Re: The Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 44 Years
« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2020, 08:19:29 PM »
I havenít played BlueJack National but how would you fit a hole the Tiger designed on this list. Of course this in no way requires that you kick off the architect of the corresponding hole. But you will have to reshuffle and kick someone off.


Lester George also sends me a Christmas card every year. So I wouldnít mind seeing him get some love.


Let's give Lester a little.  At Kinloch, I like hole #2, a very gentle version of a Bottle hole design.  Between the two short par 4s, #4 is the choice over #15.  The go, no-go decision is better there, and the green that slopes away from the player makes for exciting approach and greenside play.  For a longer par 4, #16 by a nose over #10, despite the fact that #10 may possess greater overall "shot values".

We've had two par 4 15th holes mentioned so far that were designed by Coore & Crenshaw.  I love them both.  But my favorite C&C 15th hole is at Friar's Head, which was the first hole I thought of when this thread appeared.  Friar's Head #15 is the complete package, boldly designed and exceptionally beautiful.Once again with Coore/Crenshaw, the 14th at Sand Hills seems a lock for modern best hole accolades.  It's widely regarded as an all-time great by folks like us.


The 17th hole at Pumpkin Ridge (Ghost Creek) is a skinny 230-320 yarder with a tiny two-tier green.  What makes it special is how the hole location dictates strategy off the tee.  Lay up for a front pin, but for a back pin try and drive over the creek so you can chip and run up to the second tier with your second shot.  Really fun.

Ran chose the 2nd at Kingsley Club, which is incredibly demanding.  Miss it left or right and the recovery shots can add up quickly.  I like the par 3 5th and 16th better.  I also like the par 4 4th a lot, with its massive contoured green.

I was fortunate to visit Tara Iti once, and of all the holes there, I think the most special is the par 5 18th, the Foxy hole.  It is marvelously strategic, and would seem to yield an endless variety of daily results.

 There's a few from me.  I'm falling behind on knowing all the courses these days, and my memories are fading a bit.  If I begin playing again, I'll still enjoy it.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2020, 08:21:33 PM by John Kirk »

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: The Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 44 Years
« Reply #30 on: July 22, 2020, 09:06:05 PM »
I havenít played BlueJack National but how would you fit a hole the Tiger designed on this list. Of course this in no way requires that you kick off the architect of the corresponding hole. But you will have to reshuffle and kick someone off.


 


I haven't seen all of "Tiger's" golf holes. But my estimation is their individual hole design is one of the weaker qualities of their work. They all look like average / boiler plate / filler holes to me - kind of a Fazio Lite.
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil & Tiger.

Jim Franklin

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Re: The Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 44 Years
« Reply #31 on: July 23, 2020, 10:46:10 AM »
No, not my choice, but Ran's:


https://golf.com/travel/dream-18-best-holes-last-44-years/


Of course, he kept it to 18 different architects to be politically correct, and by keeping the numbers the same for a true eclectic 18, it was inevitable he would have to make some unconventional choices to fill in the gaps.  And because it hasn't been done before, there was no peer pressure to select a few of the same holes everyone else does.


But I did not think he would come up with a list where I wouldn't have picked ANY of the same 18 holes myself.  I'm not certain if that's a good thing, or not.  :-\

Have not finished reading thread, but you would not have selected #13 at Pac Dunes?

edit: finished thread and saw the answer. Thanks.

I would have Rock Creek Cattle 7, 10, or 14 in there.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2020, 10:50:01 AM by Jim Franklin »
Mr Hurricane

Steve Lapper

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Re: The Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 44 Years
« Reply #32 on: July 23, 2020, 11:02:22 AM »
It's fair to say many, many excellent modern holes that fit the criteria deserved to be mentioned. As the eminent Mr. Regan said, multiple lists could be made....and a good number of holes would be ignored.


My sense is that this list had to be dominated by publicly accessible courses. It wasn't done as much for a pure intellectual exercise for Ran as it was for the magazine's audience. A few private course holes are included, but public availability was likely part of the editorial mandate.
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Kalen Braley

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Re: The Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 44 Years
« Reply #33 on: July 23, 2020, 11:12:06 AM »
Jim agreed there.


I was thinking several holes from RCCC could be on this list, 14-16 are just sublime in so many ways!

JC Jones

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Re: The Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 44 Years
« Reply #34 on: July 28, 2020, 05:53:55 PM »
Ran's list is a disaster on several fronts.  Nonetheless, speaking only to the omission of Lester George and a hole from Ballyhack (which Ran said was the best course in the Commonwealth of Virginia), I would contend the 2nd hole and the 12th hole should be in consideration for a list such as this.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Tom_Doak

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Re: The Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 44 Years
« Reply #35 on: July 28, 2020, 05:59:29 PM »
Ran's list is a disaster on several fronts.  Nonetheless, speaking only to the omission of Lester George and a hole from Ballyhack (which Ran said was the best course in the Commonwealth of Virginia), I would contend the 2nd hole and the 12th hole should be in consideration for a list such as this.


Feel free to make your vote official on my parallel thread, below.

Garland Bayley

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Re: The Best 18 Holes Built in the Last 44 Years
« Reply #36 on: July 30, 2020, 11:03:04 PM »
...
Have not finished reading thread, but you would not have selected #13 at Pac Dunes?
...

Heck, even Rees Jones might have been able to place a golf hole there. Takes some insight to make 6 and 16 there.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

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