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Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fishers Island Club - A Photo Tour and Appreciation
« Reply #50 on: March 02, 2015, 06:22:34 PM »
Sorry, forgive my geographic ignorance, its "up there" somewhere isn't it?

Josh:

You'd be better off quitting while you're only slightly behind. 

Or you could take another approach, perhaps seeking out why what you see in the photos as unnatural or unbefitting a golf course works so well. 

And I'd leave out the parts concerning access and the state of private golf in the United States, it just makes you look like you have a chip on your shoulder.  No one wants to get into a conversation with someone who has an agenda.

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fishers Island Club - A Photo Tour and Appreciation
« Reply #51 on: March 02, 2015, 06:42:55 PM »
Sorry, forgive my geographic ignorance, its "up there" somewhere isn't it?

Josh:

You'd be better off quitting while you're only slightly behind. 

Or you could take another approach, perhaps seeking out why what you see in the photos as unnatural or unbefitting a golf course works so well. 

And I'd leave out the parts concerning access and the state of private golf in the United States, it just makes you look like you have a chip on your shoulder.  No one wants to get into a conversation with someone who has an agenda.

Sven

Sven-So if I am correct you are saying that calling Fishers Island a "Wasp bolt hole" is not the quickest route to securing an invite? Lucky for Josh he will be able to continue to hate it from afar. ;D

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fishers Island Club - A Photo Tour and Appreciation
« Reply #52 on: March 02, 2015, 06:51:33 PM »
I have stated before that I don't understand aiming poles on private courses. It does seem to ruin a view.

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fishers Island Club - A Photo Tour and Appreciation
« Reply #53 on: March 02, 2015, 06:59:30 PM »
Sorry, forgive my geographic ignorance, its "up there" somewhere isn't it?

Dear Josh,

Putting your geographic ignorance aside, can we learn a little bit about your level of intelligence with respect to golf course architecture?

Have you ever played a Seth Raynor course? If yes, was it fun?

Have you ever played a C.B. Macdonald course? If yes, what did you think?

Do you approve of CBM's "18 great hole theory?

Do you think he was he wise to be so heavily influenced by the greatest holes in Europe?

Or was Macdonald just being "lazy" at NGLA like Raynor was at Fishers Island?

Do you think CBM had a profound influence on golf course architecture in the US, and given the sheer numbers of American golfers and the courses that would be built, the world?

Do you understand Raynor's connection to CBM?

Do you think that CBM and Raynor's work might possibly have motivated other architects like Ross, Mackenzie, Colt, Tillinhast and others to "step up their game" to compete with the Macdonald school?

Bonus question: how many holes did Raynor oversee the construction at FI?


Thanks for your thoughtful responses.

Your friendly prat,

Bill
« Last Edit: March 03, 2015, 09:28:53 AM by Bill Brightly »

Scott Wintersteen

Re: Fishers Island Club - A Photo Tour and Appreciation
« Reply #54 on: March 02, 2015, 07:00:00 PM »
Getting back to the original post, thanks Jon for a great photo tour.  Probably one of the best on this site.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fishers Island Club - A Photo Tour and Appreciation
« Reply #55 on: March 02, 2015, 07:39:27 PM »
Getting back to the original post, thanks Jon for a great photo tour.  Probably one of the best on this site.

For what?  Do you now want to join Fishers Island more than before? Who has he done a service?

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fishers Island Club - A Photo Tour and Appreciation
« Reply #56 on: March 02, 2015, 08:08:56 PM »
Getting back to the original post, thanks Jon for a great photo tour.  Probably one of the best on this site.

For what?  Do you now want to join Fishers Island more than before? Who has he done a service?

I thought we were here to discuss architecture, not to discover our new golf home. Not that anyone here has joined a club due to anything they've seen or read on this website.....

Jon, sorry for any of my posts that aren't on topic, or highlighting something I've seen in your pics, or to question whether a hole, or the course, are really what it appears to be.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fishers Island Club - A Photo Tour and Appreciation
« Reply #57 on: March 02, 2015, 08:16:20 PM »
Question for Donnie Beck, if he still lurks and posts here:

There are a lot of rigid shapes and lines on the course, primarily around bunkers and the slopes around greens. This must present some challenge and added cost to the maintenance of the course. If the design of the routing, bunkers, tees and greens were the same as today but(hypothetically) soften the shaping to make things more maintenance friendly, would the playing characteristics change dramatically?

Thanks,

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fishers Island Club - A Photo Tour and Appreciation
« Reply #58 on: March 02, 2015, 08:26:03 PM »
Joe,

I Googled Fishers Island images and didn't see anything more than what is on this thread. I don't get the value of seeing vacation photos of people on this site.  Nothing wrong with it, just no value. Where is the architecture discussion?

My point is that these threads take away valuable time and discussion from worthy topics like the one started by Sven.

You know I love you, so why quibble?

Josh Stevens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fishers Island Club - A Photo Tour and Appreciation
« Reply #59 on: March 02, 2015, 08:26:21 PM »
Sorry, forgive my geographic ignorance, its "up there" somewhere isn't it?

Josh:

You'd be better off quitting while you're only slightly behind. 

Or you could take another approach, perhaps seeking out why what you see in the photos as unnatural or unbefitting a golf course works so well. 

And I'd leave out the parts concerning access and the state of private golf in the United States, it just makes you look like you have a chip on your shoulder.  No one wants to get into a conversation with someone who has an agenda.

Sven

Sven
I'm flattered you had me only slightly behind, I thought I was way back there.

There is no agenda, I am just annoying.  I think it is from a life of being a scientist and being taught from youth to question everything.

I suppose from experience there are two general ways in which those who dare to question received wisdom are dealt with.

The easiest way is to gather a group of like minded comrades, pin the unbeliever in a corner, point fingers and scream "he's a witch"

The more complicated approach, while still considering him an idiot, is to attempt to see where his coming from, and in so doing, lift his intellect to the point where he be brought into the fold.

If you tell me that RM or Dornoch are nice tracks, then I will go and look for myself as being a bit of simpleton, I need to experience things first hand.

But if you tell me FI is a nice track, then I struggle as I know that experiencing it first hand is not an option.  These photos are lovely and a  testament to the artistry of the photographer and the beauty of the region but they do not satisfy my innate curiosity.  And so I ask questions.

My dear Prat Bill, I wont dip into your questions as they are beyond me.  I have no knowledge of any of those things - I am still at the point where I know what I like but I don't know why.  I can see where digging down into the theory might appeal to some, but I am not there yet but rather still focussed on how things were built rather than why they were built.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fishers Island Club - A Photo Tour and Appreciation
« Reply #60 on: March 02, 2015, 08:42:54 PM »
Josh is this a rant about not being able to judge a course from (excellent)photos?
or a rant about access

I'd venture that most Northeastern US golfers would find it easier to find a way to play Fishers than it would be to fly across the ocean to TOC or Royal Melbourne.

I really don't see why you think playing it is not an option, though if you keep typing you will be right ;) ;D
« Last Edit: March 02, 2015, 11:19:19 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Charlie_Bell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fishers Island Club - A Photo Tour and Appreciation
« Reply #61 on: March 02, 2015, 08:46:42 PM »
Josh,

I share your dismay for the exclusiveness of so many good American courses, but there's little to be done about it.  However, I hereby offer you a chance to play a somewhat unspoiled, little altered Raynor course -- as many times as you'd like -- if you can make the trip to northwest Connecticut.  Hotchkiss is a 9-hole public course which I've been playing for the past 55 years or so.  Though you'll find almost every hole straight as a motorway, I think you'll find the topography of the fairways and the contours of the greens make the course endlessly fun.  It hasn't bored me yet.

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fishers Island Club - A Photo Tour and Appreciation
« Reply #62 on: March 02, 2015, 08:53:01 PM »


My dear Prat Bill, I wont dip into your questions as they are beyond me.  I have no knowledge of any of those things - I am still at the point where I know what I like but I don't know why.  I can see where digging down into the theory might appeal to some, but I am not there yet but rather still focussed on how things were built rather than why they were built.
[/quote]

That is about what I figured, Josh. You know nothing about Fishers Island and precious little about golf course architecture. This is a serious site. Rather than banging your fingers on the keyboard, I suggest you work to formulate answers to the questions I asked. Spend some time in the Courses by Country tab on this website. Research Macdonald and Raynor. Learn the history behind their templates. You might well be fascinated: these holes pay homage to holes from your side of the pond. It truly is a fascinating study.

Well over 90% of the regular posters here could answer every queston I asked without hesitation. When Ran allowed you on the site, he hoped that you might be the type of student of gca who would have something to add to the site, or take the time to learn. Not attempt to be a provacateur.

And when you call me a prat, I'm tempted to respond in kind. But I will not. I truly hope you take the time to learn a little. Post less, think more.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2015, 08:56:10 PM by Bill Brightly »

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fishers Island Club - A Photo Tour and Appreciation
« Reply #63 on: March 02, 2015, 08:57:58 PM »
Josh,

Buy a camera.

PPallotta

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fishers Island Club - A Photo Tour and Appreciation
« Reply #64 on: March 02, 2015, 09:10:49 PM »
As I mentioned in regards to Benjamin as well, Jon seems to be able to capture not only the ambience of a course but also its essence.

For me these photos were a revelation. I think for the first time I was able to understand/appreciate the almost poetic beauty of Raynor's architectural expressions, i.e. the purity with which fundamental, essential and timeless principles of design are made manifest on the ground. 

Somehow 'templates' now seems a poor word to describe what I'm seeing. 'Forms' is even worse, and 'ideals' (as in platonic ideals) is too heavy handed. But whatever *it* is, I see it at Fisher's Island.

Peter

 

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fishers Island Club - A Photo Tour and Appreciation
« Reply #65 on: March 02, 2015, 09:19:12 PM »
These photos remind me of Gib's writing.  Words, words, words, words, my God, so many words.

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fishers Island Club - A Photo Tour and Appreciation
« Reply #66 on: March 02, 2015, 09:30:45 PM »
These photos remind me of Gib's writing.  Words, words, words, words, my God, so many words.

JK,

Lots of people have said nice things about Gib's writing. I bet none have pleased him more than this.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2015, 09:44:15 PM by Bill Brightly »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Fishers Island Club - A Photo Tour and Appreciation
« Reply #67 on: March 02, 2015, 11:10:28 PM »

Feathers are there to be ruffled are they not?  Surely having to explain this place to someone who has never seen it is rather fun. 

I confess the lack of access to many of Americas top courses does tend to make me mark them down. 

Josh,

Please inform Ran and the magazines that provide the ratings that there's a new category for determining a golf course's architectural merits, namely, whether you can gain access to it.


I know that is just envy and so a bit intellectually feeble on my part, but on the other hand in an attempt to defend the indefensible, is the ranking of say TOC more valid after millions of rounds of golf by possibly a million different golfers, than that of FI where maybe only a few thousand different individuals have been around it in recent times. Perhaps

Wouldn't that depend upon the average architectural IQ of those who have played TOC and FI ?


I think the regular posters here have outgrown the natural tendency to be gushing in praise of some place that is all but impossible to get on so I wont try that one, but I am not about to apologise for not blindly accepting other people's opinion.

Let me see if I can rephrase the above statement.

You'd rather remain in the dark than accept the opinions of those who have played the golf course.
You'd rather wallow in ignorance than accept the opinions of knowledgeable golfers with personal first hand experience.
Any fool can learn from his own experience, but it takes a wise man to learn from the experiences of others.


Let me ask you  (again this is from genuine ignorance, not fishing for a response here) - could those of you old enough, think back 30 years to the 80's, in the dark days before internet or GCA.  Had you ever heard of FI, and if so, what was your view?  Did you think it great, or just some strange WASP bolthole upstate that never saw the light of day, and not a patch on the great championship venues like Congressional and all the great cutting edge stuff being built in Florida? 

OK, I get it, this thread is meant to be a joke, as no one would be so uninformed, so ignorant or so moronic as to make the above statement, absent jest.

But, to answer your question, the Internet and GCA didn't create intelligent thought.
Informed, intelligent thought existed prior to the introduction of the Internet and GCA.
Yes, intelligent, interested, well informed golfers knew about FI, NGLA, BPB, CPC, PV, WFW and many other great golf courses.


When was it "rediscovered"

That's a question that predisposes an erroneous answer.

FI was never lost.
It wasn't rediscovered, it was only recently discovered by the uninformed, the uninterested and the ignorant.


Patrick_Mucci

Re: Fishers Island Club - A Photo Tour and Appreciation
« Reply #68 on: March 02, 2015, 11:14:52 PM »
JakaB,

I love Gib's writing

JeffWarne,

Very funny......... And on the mark.

Scott Wintersteen

Re: Fishers Island Club - A Photo Tour and Appreciation
« Reply #69 on: March 03, 2015, 09:20:09 AM »
Getting back to the original post, thanks Jon for a great photo tour.  Probably one of the best on this site.

For what?  Do you now want to join Fishers Island more than before? Who has he done a service?

You must have the reading comprehension of a 10 year old.  When did I ever say I wanted to join Fishers Island?  He took time to put together a good photo tour and discuss the different holes in detail.  Why don't you stop trolling and add some value on this site for once.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fishers Island Club - A Photo Tour and Appreciation
« Reply #70 on: March 03, 2015, 09:33:13 AM »
Everyone wants to play Fishers Island so I thought putting up the capital to become a member could be a benefit of these wonderful photos. Scott W, I figured since you post under a fake name you had the means. My apologies.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fishers Island Club - A Photo Tour and Appreciation
« Reply #71 on: March 03, 2015, 09:51:53 AM »
There are some interesting and horrible developments going on in golf architecture today and this site is being distracted by vacation photo albums.

We have the media calling for soft greens and lower tournament scores.

We were just shown the greatness that follows when a water hazard is on every hole.

For two weeks in a row the 297th ranked player in the world won as a direct result of the architecture.

No discussion as another pretty pinwheel is blown in front of our faces. Good for us.

PPallotta

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fishers Island Club - A Photo Tour and Appreciation
« Reply #72 on: March 03, 2015, 10:02:41 AM »
I understand what you're saying, JK, but just try to think of Jon's photo-tour as the equivalent of snuggling-in to watch the Ed Sullivan Show during those tense years of war, Watergate and social upheaval. After working hard and thinking sad thoughts and having divisive arguments all week long, America needed and relied upon the comforting familiarity and community togetherness that this old master of the variety show genre could bring us every week. Don't hate us for loving Jon's tour of Fishers Island -- I bet even you as a youngster looked forward to spending an hour of simple and relaxing fun watching Carol Channing and Red Skelton and Jim Morrison and impressionist Rich Little all on one show.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 03, 2015, 10:12:30 AM by PPallotta »

Josh Stevens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fishers Island Club - A Photo Tour and Appreciation
« Reply #73 on: March 03, 2015, 05:38:47 PM »
Oops, I hope I haven't picked a scab here?

For what it is worth I thought the pics were wondrous, even if I did not glean as much from them as I should.  I am a photo tart for nice golf courses but an utter failure at producing them myself.  I have tried at my course, with huge undulating fairways and huge undulating greens, and my pics look like I took them in a carpark.  Perhaps my Box Brownie is no longer up to the task.

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fishers Island Club - A Photo Tour and Appreciation
« Reply #74 on: March 03, 2015, 07:49:23 PM »
Oops, I hope I haven't picked a scab here?

Nope. No need to flatter yourself, your just a participant here just like the rest of us....
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

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