[Peter Pallotta]

Peter - that sounds like a very cool hobby. The following might be of some use (though you may have it already - I haven't read through the thread) as the overhead photo has some distinct contours and the holes are all well described
http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrary/GolfIllustrated/1915/gi34k.pdf

[Sven Nilsen]

Peter P. -


Not sure if you realized it, but that's the very same article copied in the first post of this thread.


Peter F. -


I don't think there's much more out there than what is included here.  If the photos ever surface that were taken when the course was closed, that would be a treasure trove.  If you do find anything else, I'd be interested in seeing it.


Sven

[Tommy Naccarato]

Sven,


Many years ago, I took it upon myself to go my own research on Lido, as I felt some of Uncle's George's findings had a few holes in them, or just weren't complete, more speculative instead of providing actual facts.  Don't get me wrong, George (And Gib's) research was VERY good, but there was some things missing; issues that others should look into. 


One of these findings was a lady historian who produced some things that were of great interest; then, I found something else which no one had come upon, and that was when the property was going to be sold after the war, the person that was behind the development of the house was none other the Paul Castalano, whose estate was right near the Lido Hotel!  We can pretty much draw up our conclusions as to those dealings, if they were true, which, I had newspaper accounts that they were!  I will try to dig them up!

[BCrosby]

Would love to see what you might have, Tommy. I am intrigued.


Bob

[Bret Lawrence]

Here is another George Trevor article from The New York Sun-July 29, 1933.  A few of the prior articles on the thread were also written by Trevor.

[Joel_Stewart]

Timely topic - especially as it's been reported in the past that Mike Keiser has told Mosaic he'd pay for a Lido reproduction if Mosaic gives him the land.

I wonder who'll build it.....

Jim Urbina is the architect.

[Peter Flory]

Thanks for the responses.  Even if there are blindspots, just having that confirmed will save me aggrevation. 


Here is a summary of what I can see in these threads picture wise:
1) First: No pics
2) Plateau: No pics
3) Eden: 2 good pics.  1 of green and 1 of hole
4) Channel: 2 pics, both from teeing ground.  Color photo even. 
5) Cape: No pics
6) Dog's Leg: Pic of fairway
7) Hog's Back: 1 pic from distance of fairway.  1 pic of partial green.
8. Ocean: Great pics of shortened version of hole.  Of original, there are 2 photos, both from well behind tee looking toward green.
9) Leven: There is 1 pic that shows the pool in the foreground and the fairway and green well in the background.  Not bad though. 
10) Alps: There is 1 pic of the approach/ green site. 
11) Lagoon: There are 2 pics, both showig mainly the teeing ground from behind and forward. 
12) Punchbowl: There is 1 pic of the green. 
13) Knoll: No pics
14) Short: No pics
15) Strategy: No pics
16) Redan: No pics
17) Long: No pics
18) There is a sideways pic of the fairway

What will make this job easier is that the site is small at 115 acres and that my understanding is that it is very flat in the grand scheme of things.  i.e. I'm assuming that the total elevation change on the whole property is within 15 feet and only consists of ripples?  Also, the water table is going to be level.  On 99% of courses, this is not the case and it makes it harder to model. 

What is that plasticine map?  Was that a photo of an actual clay relief?  Or was it an illustration?  Either way, is the understanding that it was an accurate representation of the undulations within each hole?  I see blueprints mentioned- is that something separate and if so, are those public?


Based on everything I've learned, it sounds like the original version of the 8th hole was superior to the one that was moved inland.  It's tempting to do the modified version since there is a perfect photo of it, but I think I'll take a shot at the original.  I can imagine how great it must have been with the wind whipping in from the right.  That shorter hole does look striking in its own way as sort of a stadium style hole. 

Just to give you a feel for the quality of finished product, here is what Augusta and Chambers Bay look like after users replicated them with the software. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whk45rr5oNE


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFJ5HdRW0I0

[Tommy Naccarato]

Would love to see what you might have, Tommy. I am intrigued.


Bob

Bob, of course, having trouble finding, but it goes into great detail of how Costalano was buying the land with the idea to turn it into housing.  This was from the old New York Times on Proquest

[Jim_Kennedy]

.

[Peter Flory]

Not sure if anyone has done this yet, but here are some aerial overlays to show exactly where each hole was.  Notice that on the lagoon hole, the current water feature shares some of the old shape. 

100% opacity
Pics deleted due to paywall.

[Peter Flory]

One of the articles mentions that the superintendent (Charles Mayo I believe) photographed every hole from every angle before the course was closed so that it could potentially be restored post war. 


Are those pictures lost to history? 

[Matthew Rose]

I'm bringing back some lost courses via computer design for PC and simulator play (as a hobby).  I have 3 courses in front of Lido (OFCC #3, Illinois Golf Club, and Mill Road Farm) and each one takes months, but want to start assembling information on Lido.  I've read all the threads here and searched online, but want to tap into the knowledge of this forum so that I can work smarter.  Getting the designs perfect in 2-dimensions is easy if there is a good arial, but getting the 3rd dimension right is very difficult, even with perfect ground level photographs. 

What software do you use, Peter?

I've been using the Perfect Parallel software for a couple years and am quite fond of it; previously I worked with the Links designer but found the learning curve exceptionally steep, though I eventually figured it out. I don't read the forums there much anymore, but (to keep this somewhat on topic), there's a gentleman over there named John Brooks who uses the Links designer to re-create real courses that have closed in the past few years. The PP developers have also mentioned plans to release courses for the Perfect Golf game that are based on real designs that were never built. One example was Nicklaus' Olympic routing.

The software we have now allows you to use real elevation data, so the idea of re-creating virtual lost / never built courses on reproduced land plots is very exciting. Lido seems like the perfect candidate for such an experiment.

[Peter Flory]

I use The Golf Club software.  I do have Perfect Golf's software as well and it is better if you have Lidar data, but for the projects I'm working on, that isn't available (or it is disturbed by the houses that have been built over the land).  I find The Golf Club's software easier to use otherwise... just wish they had the Lidar import feature. 

For Lido, the overhead is clear enough that it can be reproduced.  There won't be any topographical information as far as I know.  I'm not sure if that plastacine clay model that was produced is accurate at all in terms of the ripples or if it was meant to be representative.  The best source of information would be actual photographs and it's tantalizing to read that someone close to the course took a full set for this exact purpose... but I'm guessing they were probably thrown away years ago by his heirs. 

With some of the talk about reproducing Lido in real life, it is also tempting to think about how it could be on the plot next door to it.  The land is slightly smaller, but I'm sure with a little creativity, the holes could be rearranged a bit to fit.  The only hole that bordered the water to the south (the par 3 8th) was eventually blocked by the pier/ boardwalk structure anyway. 

[Craig Disher]

One of the articles mentions that the superintendent (Charles Mayo I believe) photographed every hole from every angle before the course was closed so that it could potentially be restored post war. 


Are those pictures lost to history?

Probably. I contacted the club where Mayo worked after he left Lido and the historian said as far as he knew Mayo left no personal records. Contacting his family also led to nothing. People usually save photographs so it's possible they're still around but if they ever appear it will be by chance.

[Peter Flory]

Thanks for confirming that Craig.  I'll stop wondering. 

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