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John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2015, 08:40:38 PM »
Isn't it most likely that the engineering of the property was substandard leading to poor conditioning. Can anyone give me an example of great architecture or art in the modern world that was abandoned?

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2015, 08:46:16 PM »
Sven,

Lido was built and failed. It is important to know why before it is built again. There are very few great works of architecture or art that have ever been destroyed on peacetime soil. I'm not buying the hype. Look, if Bahto was still around and could make a buck I would stay quiet. I want new courses built today to be built by architects, not bloggers, critics and historians. In the few years I have left to golf there may be no more than 10 important courses built. Please forgive me if I care that they be more than some rehash of a failed effort.

John:

You are interjecting from the standpoint of ignorance.  Do your research and make a case for how the design of the Lido contributed to its downfall.  When you've got a supportable theory, if you do, I'll listen to any thoughts that replicating (or modernizing) the layout is a bad business decision.

Daniel Wexler wrote a pretty nice book on a number of "works of art" that were abandoned.  Its pretty easy to preserve a painting that can be hung on a wall, its another thing to keep 150 acres in an area of growing population out of the hands of developers.  If you need a non-golf course example, go look up Richard Serra's Tilted Arc, another instance of government action.

In addition, your understanding of the Nazi Plunder is fundamentally flawed.

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #27 on: February 06, 2015, 08:55:51 PM »
Bill:
That being said, the group of golf holes on that scorecard would be fascinating to play, especially as they include both the Channel Hole and Mackenzie's prize winner.

Sven

Wait, wasn't it Raynor's Prize dogleg that was was built? What does Mackenzie have to do with the hole? Dod he award the prize?

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #28 on: February 06, 2015, 09:00:54 PM »
It is easier to insult me than to give me a single example. Even the crap Frank Lloyd Wright built still stands for no other reason than just cause. Rich people don't let this stuff go. Lido went and I want to know why. I was just talking to my wife, who didn't know until last night that trains no longer have cabooses, and even she agreed with me. Rich people don't give nothing up that nobody else wants. Lido must have been either unplayable or forgettable. 150 acres to a Vanderbilt, really?

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #29 on: February 06, 2015, 09:06:06 PM »

Lido was an interesting case for CBM and Raynor, as it was just about the only course they built where the argument that they incorporated natural features can't be raised.

I'm sure anyone here who espouses the ideals of naturalism cringes a bit at the idea of regrading an entire piece of property.  That being said, the group of golf holes on that scorecard would be fascinating to play, especially as they include both the Channel Hole and Mackenzie's prize winner.

Sven

I am one of those people who always cringes a bit at the idea of the Lido, much like I cringe at courses like Shadow Creek. The project was true to part of what made the golf architecture of that era great, but it ignored the other part.  I sometimes wonder if we aren't heading in the same direction with this latest "Golden Age."  

_______________________________________

Kavanaugh, please don't ruin what has potential to be an interesting thread with your self-indulgent trolling. Thanks.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2015, 09:26:24 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #30 on: February 06, 2015, 09:11:12 PM »
Sven,
 I want new courses built today to be built by architects, not bloggers, critics and historians. In the few years I have left to golf there may be no more than 10 important courses built. Please forgive me if I care that they be more than some rehash of a failed effort.

I guess Old Macdonald is not worth your time, either. Let's trust that Mosaic employs a skilled architect and a talented construction crew. (Their track record is superb so far...) I have no doubt that Lido-Streamsong will be warmly received, even if your name never appears on the tee sheet. Deal with it, John.

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #31 on: February 06, 2015, 09:19:33 PM »
It is easier to insult me than to give me a single example. Even the crap Frank Lloyd Wright built still stands for no other reason than just cause. Rich people don't let this stuff go. Lido went and I want to know why. I was just talking to my wife, who didn't know until last night that trains no longer have cabooses, and even she agreed with me. Rich people don't give nothing up that nobody else wants. Lido must have been either unplayable or forgettable. 150 acres to a Vanderbilt, really?

You're an odd man.

http://www.amazon.com/Lost-Wright-Wrights-Vanished-Masterpieces/dp/0764945963

"Despite Frank Lloyd Wright's global renown, more than one hundred of his buildings--one of every five built--have been destroyed. Gone are his majestic Imperial Hotel in Tokyo and the playful Midway Gardens in Chicago. Buffalo has lost the innovative Larkin Administration Building. Gone, too, are notable residences such as the palatial Little House in Minnesota and the stables in Mississippi he designed for his mentor, Louis Sullivan. Apartment buildings, houses large and small, retail spaces, resort colonies, garages, garden structures, and monumental high-profile commissions--all have been lost to future generations."
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #32 on: February 06, 2015, 09:25:49 PM »
George Bahto's drawing of the "Channel Hole."



I love CBM and Raynor, but I would like someone to convince me that the much maligned 7th at Valhalla isn't the racemic version of this lauded golf hole. Alternate fairways with a cape approach if you take the long way. Granted CBM and Raynor probably wouldn't have used a rock wall to front the green, but surely I'm not the only one to see a similarity?

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #33 on: February 06, 2015, 09:29:36 PM »
Bill:
That being said, the group of golf holes on that scorecard would be fascinating to play, especially as they include both the Channel Hole and Mackenzie's prize winner.

Sven

Wait, wasn't it Raynor's Prize dogleg that was was built? What does Mackenzie have to do with the hole? Dod he award the prize?

Bill:

Read the description of the 18th hole in the article in the first post.

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #34 on: February 06, 2015, 09:32:51 PM »
It is easier to insult me than to give me a single example.

In golf how about C.B. Macdonald's Links Club in the 1980s.
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #35 on: February 06, 2015, 09:42:17 PM »
It is easier to insult me than to give me a single example.

In golf how about C.B. Macdonald's Links Club in the 1980s.


David:

John is either unfamiliar with or unwilling to pick up his copy of Missing Links to figure out the Lido and the Links Club are only a small part of a list that includes (amongst others):

Westhampton (Oneck)
El Caballero
Timper Point
Meadowbrook Hunt Club
Pomonok
Boca Raton Resort & Club (South)
Mill Road Farm
Yorktown
Key West
Deepdale
Gibson Island
Bayside
Sharp Park
Oakland
Englewood
Pinehurst #4
Fox Hills
Beaver Tail
Fresh Meadow
Norwood
St. Albans
St. Petersburg
Montauk Downs
Olympic (Ocean)
Baltimore (Roland Park)
California (Culver City)
Fox Hills
Maidstone (East)
Ormond Beach
Pasadena
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #36 on: February 06, 2015, 10:10:36 PM »
Isn't it most likely that the engineering of the property was substandard leading to poor conditioning. Can anyone give me an example of great architecture or art in the modern world that was abandoned?

The old Cincinnati library comes to mind: http://www.buzzfeed.com/briangalindo/15-gorgeous-photos-of-the-old-cincinnati-library#.nbO1MX9g2

Penn Station and the old Chicago Federal building are also obvious choices.

Still, I'm also curious about how good Lido really was. Was it really more than just an engineering masterpiece? I've gotta say, the Channel Hole has always looked a lot like 7 at Valhalla to me as well, but with one fewer forced carry and a far less penal bunkering scheme. The Old MacDonald comparison doesn't fit, as many Macdonald courses are still standing and therefore Old MacDonald isn't an attempt to recapture a failed course, but instead a tribute to a designer who was largely so successful that almost none of his courses have ever needed money from public golfers.
"There will always be haters. Thatís just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #37 on: February 06, 2015, 10:22:24 PM »
Isn't it most likely that the engineering of the property was substandard leading to poor conditioning. Can anyone give me an example of great architecture or art in the modern world that was abandoned?

The McCurdy hotel has hosted more failed businesses than I can remember, and I've only lived in Evansville for 10 years.

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #38 on: February 06, 2015, 10:23:26 PM »
Back to our regularly scheduled program.

Here's a Nov. 1920 American Golfer article that gives you a pretty good idea as to the challenges the course presented.









« Last Edit: February 06, 2015, 10:38:05 PM by Sven Nilsen »
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #39 on: February 06, 2015, 10:37:13 PM »
Here's is Darwin's 1922 breakdown of the three courses he considered the best in American (American Golfer, Sept. 1922) -

















"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #40 on: February 06, 2015, 11:18:36 PM »
I'm baffled why anyone would hire an expensive architect to recreate a non-existent golf course for two reasons.

1) I would want me architect to design something of his own creation.

2) If I'm going to reproduce a golf course, why do I need an architect and not just an extremely talented construction company who can look at photographs and drawings and reproduce what was there?

Anthony


Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #41 on: February 06, 2015, 11:23:34 PM »
Anthony,

Who would you rather have responsible for an end result? A person with a reputation, or a company with a large contract?

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Mark Hissey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #42 on: February 06, 2015, 11:34:45 PM »
I'm baffled why anyone would hire an expensive architect to recreate a non-existent golf course for two reasons.

1) I would want me architect to design something of his own creation.

2) If I'm going to reproduce a golf course, why do I need an architect and not just an extremely talented construction company who can look at photographs and drawings and reproduce what was there?

Anthony



Feel.

A bona fide architect will make the final product much better.

It's a travesty that this golf course doesn't exist. We're lucky that we have the hope that this gem will be recreated. And it will be.


Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #43 on: February 07, 2015, 01:28:20 AM »
Sven, the caption of the picture in your reply #3 says this is the 8th, or Biarritz.  I wonder if that's so.  No ocean appears to be near the hole, yet according to the maps, the ocean ran alongside its entire right side.  I also don't see any buildings on the maps, yet the green in that photo is practically surrounded.  Finally, the green complex itself confuses me as a Biarritz: don't see a trench, either in the green or before it. 

My next question: do the photos/maps give us any clues about whether CBM built the trench inside the green on the Biarritz?  On the map in your reply #8, the green looks quite long.  Suggests the green might have contained the trench.

On that same map, looks like the first tee is a long distance from the clubhouse.  That was originally true at NGLA as well, until they flipped the nines. 




Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #44 on: February 07, 2015, 01:44:32 AM »
Sven, the caption of the picture in your reply #3 says this is the 8th, or Biarritz.  I wonder if that's so.  No ocean appears to be near the hole, yet according to the maps, the ocean ran alongside its entire right side.  I also don't see any buildings on the maps, yet the green in that photo is practically surrounded.  Finally, the green complex itself confuses me as a Biarritz: don't see a trench, either in the green or before it. 

My next question: do the photos/maps give us any clues about whether CBM built the trench inside the green on the Biarritz?  On the map in your reply #8, the green looks quite long.  Suggests the green might have contained the trench.

On that same map, looks like the first tee is a long distance from the clubhouse.  That was originally true at NGLA as well, until they flipped the nines. 





Jim:

I had the same question about that photo.  There's another photo in one of the later articles I posted above, and it is unclear to me if the building depicted there is part of the larger complex depicted in the image from page 1. 

I don't have an answer to the question on the original formation of the Biarritz green.  If something comes up, I'll post it.  I would note that it is my understanding that the 8th green was rebuilt at least once, and possibly more than once, at some point during the life of the course.  It is possible that the image you questioned is of a later rebuilt version of the green, and not of the original Biarritz format.  It is also possible that the article is mistaken and that it is showing a different green altogether.

A new clubhouse for the course was built at one point.  I've seen one image that clearly shows both the old and new structures.  It could be that the plan was always to construct something closer to where the first tee was built, and that the first structure was merely temporary.

Hopefully we'll get the answers to these questions at some point.

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #45 on: February 07, 2015, 09:47:45 AM »
George Bahto's drawing of the "Channel Hole."



I love CBM and Raynor, but I would like someone to convince me that the much maligned 7th at Valhalla isn't the racemic version of this lauded golf hole. Alternate fairways with a cape approach if you take the long way. Granted CBM and Raynor probably wouldn't have used a rock wall to front the green, but surely I'm not the only one to see a similarity?

Nigel,

Unfortunately your point will go ignored because it comes amongst some Kavanaugh trolling and a heavy dose of GCA.com hypocrisy.

You're right, the same hole done by Nicklaus is an abomination in this crowd's mind but it is spectacular when done by MacKenzie/CBM.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #46 on: February 07, 2015, 09:54:26 AM »
Palmer also built the hole on Kings North in Myrtle Beach. It was fun.

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #47 on: February 07, 2015, 10:20:49 AM »
Nigel:

The topic has been touched on before:  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,36601.0.html

A couple of other threads on the Channel Hole:  

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,57496.0.html

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,2983.0.html

I haven't played the 7th at Valhalla, and I most certainly never played the hole at Lido.  But looking at an aerial of the 7th and Bahto's image above there are a few differences in the the way the holes are designed.  The main one I see is that the reward for hitting the alternate fairway at Valhalla doesn't seem as great, as the next shot required to reach the green is all carry with little room for a miss.  At Lido, the 2nd shot from the right fairway didn't look that daunting, the main challenge being a carry of the sand short of the green.

Perhaps its in the details.

JC -

What did Mackenzie have to do with the design of the Channel Hole?

Sven

« Last Edit: February 07, 2015, 10:33:47 AM by Sven Nilsen »
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #48 on: February 07, 2015, 10:31:25 AM »
A photo of the Eden 3rd (Golf Illustrated June 1931) -

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Lido - A Redux
« Reply #49 on: February 07, 2015, 10:48:31 AM »
Sven, the caption of the picture in your reply #3 says this is the 8th, or Biarritz.  I wonder if that's so.  No ocean appears to be near the hole, yet according to the maps, the ocean ran alongside its entire right side.  I also don't see any buildings on the maps, yet the green in that photo is practically surrounded.  Finally, the green complex itself confuses me as a Biarritz: don't see a trench, either in the green or before it. 


Jim:

I had the same question about that photo.  There's another photo in one of the later articles I posted above, and it is unclear to me if the building depicted there is part of the larger complex depicted in the image from page 1. 

I don't have an answer to the question on the original formation of the Biarritz green.  If something comes up, I'll post it.  I would note that it is my understanding that the 8th green was rebuilt at least once, and possibly more than once, at some point during the life of the course.  It is possible that the image you questioned is of a later rebuilt version of the green, and not of the original Biarritz format.  It is also possible that the article is mistaken and that it is showing a different green altogether.

Sven and Jim:

I remember reading [likely in one of the several mentions of the course in GOLF ILLUSTRATED] that the original 8th hole along the beach was severely damaged by a storm after a few years, and replaced with a much shorter hole.  I figured when I saw the picture that was the rebuilt green and the design had been changed when it was shortened.  I was surprised to see the buildings so close, but that green was set right at the corner of the property.

One other reason that the course had some "issues" was that the original design was quite crowded together.  I remember looking at the old aerial photos and being shocked to see how close #16 was to both the 17th tee and the 12th fairway.  When I discussed the project with George B. and Mike K. years ago, that was one of the things I said, you'd have to space things further apart in any re-creation of the course, it would be too dangerous if it was built exactly to the original plan.

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