[Tim_Weiman]

Tim

I think its more of a problem having too many difficult holes on a course rather than holes which are too hard.

Ciao

Sean,

I understand the difference. However, I started the thread to discuss the concept of an indivual hole being "too hard".

[Russ Arbuthnot]

From personal experience, #15 at Canterbury was "too hard" for me. I think I picked up both rounds this year at the Mashie after finally making it to the green.

I was told that staff hits approaches to the green for the women during women's events, which likely means that the hole is "too hard".

Do I think the hole is bad? Not at all. It's just gone into my "nemesis holes" file, and I look forward to getting back there someday and finishing that hole.

[Tim_Weiman]

From personal experience, #15 at Canterbury was "too hard" for me. I think I picked up both rounds this year at the Mashie after finally making it to the green.

I was told that staff hits approaches to the green for the women during women's events, which likely means that the hole is "too hard".

Do I think the hole is bad? Not at all. It's just gone into my "nemesis holes" file, and I look forward to getting back there someday and finishing that hole.

Russ,

I will have to think about the women's event issue. But, that aside, I am familiar with #15 at Canterbury and have played it a few times. Can you describe why you think it is "too hard"?

[Tim_Weiman]

"you have to ask several questions before reaching a consensus.
For example, I really can't consider #5 at Pinehurst too hard because I found making bogey wasn't that difficult."  - Tim

that's not a question, that is a example of you experience.

This seems like a good topic, but providing this or that hole as an example of a 'too hard' hole doesn't begin to quantify what exactly makes a hole 'too hard.'   Without having to engage the hole's relation to par, it would seem to me that a 'too hard' hole requires a specific shot to be played and presents no other options.   

I will just sit back and read a bunch of submits of 'too hard' holes without an explanations.  Guys, what makes a hole too hard?  And if the only answers are tied to its relationship to par, then aren't we missing the point?

Charlie,

I agree with your approach. The task is to arrive at a definition of "too hard" and not to simply share experiences on holes that most would agree are hard, if not too hard. But, I do think it makes sense to propose specific holes and I am also not against the idea of "too hard" being a comparison to par.

Jeff Brauer brought up the example of #5 at Pine Valley. Good hole to debate. Very challenging to play in regulation, to hit the green and two putt. Disaster is lurking, that's for sure.

But, I see the hole a bit like #16 at Cypress Point: there is a bailout. The bailout is to hit less club and land short of the green in an area more generous than the green itself, I believe. From my perspective, this makes the hole still hard or very hard, but not "too hard".

[John Kirk]

Three ways a hole can be too hard:

1.  The hole is often difficult to complete for a score.
2.  The hole is so difficult as to be unenjoyable, and demoralizes the golfer.
3.  The score on that hole becomes overly important to the player's total score.

[cary lichtenstein]

I'm trying to understand if this question has pertinence match play. Any insights?

Joe

If it's too hard, because of a stinking pond, then it's too hard for match play. Usually holes aren't to hard for match play, but when they take away the recovery shot, it stinks.

Yes, but a low screamer gets you in one of the traps for an easy up and down

[JR Potts]

#2 at Isleworth from the back two tees is the hardest 3 I've ever played.

With those goal,post trees?    I was rather underwhelmed by Isleworth the one time I played there. 

Yep, the hardest hole I've ever played.

[Russ Arbuthnot]

From personal experience, #15 at Canterbury was "too hard" for me. I think I picked up both rounds this year at the Mashie after finally making it to the green.

I was told that staff hits approaches to the green for the women during women's events, which likely means that the hole is "too hard".

Do I think the hole is bad? Not at all. It's just gone into my "nemesis holes" file, and I look forward to getting back there someday and finishing that hole.

Russ,

I will have to think about the women's event issue. But, that aside, I am familiar with #15 at Canterbury and have played it a few times. Can you describe why you think it is "too hard"?

Tim, I guess I was implicitly stating that what makes a hole "too hard" could depend on your skill level, age, experience, etc., and although 15 was "too hard" for me, it still doesn't mean that I don't want to go back and try again until it is no longer "too hard".

But if you're asking literally why I think it was too hard, it's pretty simple: It required elevating the ball quite high from quite far away (relatively speaking), likely from a downhill lie or a lie in the rough. If you failed the approach, your ball was either in the creek for a penalty, or in the high grass on the side of the hill where you are lucky to find it. I walked off the hole both times frustrated and mumbling.

I fully realize my skill as a golfer is to blame, which was confirmed when I asked other players if they struggled with the hole or if they thought it was too hard, and no one seemed to have as much trouble as I did. So, again, I believe "too hard" is likely very personal.

[Mark Chaplin]

4th Rye
4th Sandwich
Postage Stamp
Road Hole
7th Inverness
17th Flossmoor

[Tim_Weiman]

Russ,

Actually, I wouldn't say your description of what makes #15 at Canterbury is "very personal" for the simple reason that the ability of a hole to accommodate various handicap levels has to be part of the discussion.

Along those lines, there is no doubt that the second shot on this hole is very, very hard if one is trying to play from rough and/or a downhill lie.

I'm not ready to declare the hole "too hard", but it is certainly a candidate for the discussion.

[David Stamm]

Difficulty is subjective. A few holes that I have found very difficult and possibly too much so:

18 at Barona Creek in the afternoon. The wind makes the hole that is already very challenging almost over the top.

16 at Spyglass. A tree in the middle of the fw on a long par 4 is just....dumb.

11th at Quarry Pines in Tucson. If you've played it, you know. Easily that hardest par 3 I've played. The link below showcases the green in the background. Tee is to the right.

http://www.playthepines.com/

[Tim_Weiman]

David Stamm,

I agree that #16 at Spyglass, especially playing it in the days of persimmon and balata. You certainly had to be very good to hit that green in regulation. However, it really isn't that hard a hole if one accepts bogey as a probable and acceptable outcome.

[Garland Bayley]

JK - what happenes on that hole if you hit a 225 shot at the left free side bunker?

A 23 handicapper at the time makes par from the bunker.

[Garland Bayley]

"...I struggle with the concept of a hole being too hard, except, as Tim suggests, if it has hazards that makes it near or actually impossible for a proportion of golfers to finish it."

Si.

More often it is the case where holes are hard, but dull...this is probably the worst sort of hole.

Ciao

In other words, holes that are just hard because they are long or have long forced carries are the worst sort of hole.

[Martin Toal]

I am not too sure about the idea that a hole is too hard because it is a par 4 when it should be a par 5. That is just a par 4 that a lot of players can't reach in regulation. A hole that is too hard is one where a player can't find a way to play it, even conservatively.

The 18th at The Belfry is too hard to many players because they simply can't make the carry over water for the tee shot (or the approach over more water to the green).

[Marc Haring]

IMO where the hole comes in the round is important. Early on, especially the first and a really hard hole can just ruin a round from the start and prevent much ensuing enjoyment. Late on say 17 or 18 and it can enhance the overall experience due to the anticipation/trepidation but if the round has already capitulated then you're not going to worry about it anyway.

So 17 or 18 at Sawgrass is ok but if it's located 1 or 2 = not ok.

[Morgan Clawson]

I am going to nominate #9 at The Kingsley Club because it's such a difficult green to hit and hold.

Per the Mucci scale:

How hard is it to make birdie ?  Very very hard. Requires an exceptional tee shot on the correct 1/3 of the green and a good putt, or a very good tee shot (on the green or just off, and a great putt or chip).

How hard is it to make par ?  Very hard. Same scenarios as above, but with 2 putts or a chip and a putt. 

How easy is it to make bogey? Not easy if you miss the green. there are a lot of very difficult lies just off the green (deep sand traps and fairly tall rough combined with a small green to hit and hold

How easy is it to make double ? Fairly easy if your 2nd shot does not make it on or stay on the green.

How easy is it to make triple or higher ?  Definitely possible if your lies are difficult. Picking-up is a real possibility.

That said, it is a tantalizing hole and green. But I think it would be a better hole if the green was 35% larger.

[Brett Hochstein]

It really comes down to holes where there is a "can't" involved.  Can't possibly hit it over, can't possibly hit it through, can't possibly hold it near the hole.  The first is the true offender as it involves human physical limitation. 

If you can't physically clear a hazard or massive pit of marram or trees, that leaves the player either stuck or dropping at a drop area, which many times makes a hole too easy.

The second is a little easier--most everyone can exhibit control to hit a really straight shot, even if only sometimes. 

The third can usually just be fixed by changing maintenance practice.  There is no doubt things can be designed or built too hard, but more often its that speeds are just out of control. 

[RJ_Daley]

Per the Mucci scale:

How hard is it to make birdie ?  Very very hard. Requires an exceptional tee shot on the correct 1/3 of the green and a good putt, or a very good tee shot (on the green or just off, and a great putt or chip).

How hard is it to make par ?  Very hard. Same scenarios as above, but with 2 putts or a chip and a putt.

How easy is it to make bogey? Not easy if you miss the green. there are a lot of very difficult lies just off the green (deep sand traps and fairly tall rough combined with a small green to hit and hold

How easy is it to make double ? Fairly easy if your 2nd shot does not make it on or stay on the green.

How easy is it to make triple or higher ?  Definitely possible if your lies are difficult. Picking-up is a real possibility.

I've been thinking about this question for a few days Tim and haven't come to a very definitive answer or example from the courses I've played.

I don't think the conceptual answer can be arrived at in anecdotal narrative terms or naming a specific hole by an individual player due to all the variables of one person's skill set to play a specific hole.  I also tend to think like Nuzzo that it isn't about too hard of a hole, but too hard of a course where design is torturous.  

So, I think it is down to statistics to evaluate if a hole is too hard.  I add to that the likely result of playing the hole as SICBIP.   I think you need to evaluate if it is too hard by a large sampling of players over time to arrive at what the score average is in relation to each player's handicap.   Thus, we have to assume the hole being evaluated as too hard is the #1 rated hardest on the card, then look at the stats over a season and compare it to the score with handicap of all those players. I would use the cut off of 20 handicappers to add a certain percentage of players that even get 2 shots on the #1 rated hole. Thus, if it is #1 rated hole, and all these players for the season are plus handi's to 20 handi's, and the hole over that period plays more than 1.75 -2 strokes over the handi cap, in my mind that would be a hole with whatever variable of quirks, design obstacles and flaws that make it "too hard".  Any hole deemed too hard by those criteria is simply a poorly designed hole, IMO.  Add the element that the highly possible outcome for a match play competitor is ball-in-pocket, and the concept of bad design is a key element of 'too hard'.  

That is all I can come up with... I'm not sure if I ever played a hole so much a "too hard" via those terms.

[Sean_A]

4th Rye
4th Sandwich
Postage Stamp
Road Hole


 

Ciao

[JESII]

How much of a pass fail is #14 really? It's essentially an island...but the island is much larger than just the green. You really have to work to get to 6 on this hole...hit one in the water and you drop it 75 yards away and wedge it on two putt for double!?! One decent shot and you make 3 or 4.

[Bill Gayne]

Chris Demarco on his radio show basically said the 18th at Doral was too hard even for the tour pro. He pointed out that the water carry off the tee is over 325 to a landing area 18 yards wide in often windy conditions.

I found the backside of Carnoustie maddening, especially 14, spectacles. The 12th was also particularly brutish.

15th at Bethpage, Corral, was extreme on the difficulty scale.

[Tim_Weiman]

Dick Daley,

Thanks for your thoughtful input. I really started the thread to ask a question. I didn't have an answer in mind and I am not sure I have played a hole that is "too hard", even the example of #14 at Pine Valley which I last played about twenty years ago as, I think, about a 12 HCP. The yardage on that occasion was about 170. I debated clubs and think I went with a 7 iron thinking the hole would play more like 150-160 due to elevation. The main thing was to just not be intimidated - a common feature of holes at Pine Valley - and just hit a shot I was capable of hitting. And I did, making a par I think.

Now, that wasn't 215 yards, of course. Therein, lies part of the problem coming up with a definition. The hole is pass/fail like Pat suggests, but ?I could pass as a 12 from 170 yards. So, maybe it is the 215 yard tee that is "too hard", not the hole.

As for the question of one golf hole verses an entire course, I'm still inclined to think those are two different things. Both face a definition problem.

By the way, I agree with your suggestion of a cut off at 20 HCP as someone who experienced playing Pine Valley with a 36 guy. It was brutal for both the group and the caddy. The amazing thing was the caddy politely avoided picking up a ball until #18 just because the guy was a guest of Club Chairman Ernie Ransome.

[Brad Tufts]

That hole at Princeville with the lave tube waterfall behind the green...12?

430ish, requiring a layup off the tee, then a 200-220 shot over jungle to basically an island green.

I shudder to think how a 20 plays this hole without putting down cartpaths...

[Marc Haring]

The postage stamp Sean!

If a 71 year old can play it in 3 shots over 2 rounds and in The Open; it can't be that tough?

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