[Paul Gray]

The financial position of my club is a little more complex than that. I really can't say anymore. I presume, since you suggest something has to give, that you envisage a wave of classic courses having to close in the next ten years since apparently what they're doing isn't sustainable?

Paul

Read more. Type less.

'I presume' 'you suggest' 'you envisage' 'apparently'

All mealy mouthed attempts at complete misrepresentation of what I wrote.

'tis a cop out.

[Ryan Coles]

Paul

As for the rest of it, again you want it both ways. Now you're into economics but when this doesn't pan out to your view point, the market is wrong and golfers need educating and you spout on about X factor and Mcdonalds.

[Paul Gray]

Ryan,

It has nothing to do with a like or dislike of markets. One of the things you've said which I actually agree about is that profit isn't the enemy. What I would add however is that the pursuit of every last penny isn't generally very effective. That is seemingly what isn't clear to you. Maybe that's my fault. It's simply about recognising that all business models have to include reasonable tolerance levels, including demand tolerance. If you don't have that, you have a recipe for disaster. If you don't have those tolerance levels you have a product which looks rosy during a boom and looks like the end of the world when things drop off, hence all the 'golf is doomed' threads we see here.


  

[John Kavanaugh]

Ryan,

It has nothing to do with a like or dislike of markets. One of the things you've said which I actually agree about is that profit isn't the enemy. What I would add however is that the pursuit of every last penny isn't generally very effective. That is seemingly what isn't clear to you. Maybe that's my fault. It's simply about recognising that all business models have to include reasonable tolerance levels, including demand tolerance. If you don't have that, you have a recipe for disaster. If you don't have those tolerance levels you have a product which looks rosy during a boom and looks like the end of the world when things drop off, hence all the 'golf is doomed' threads we see here.


  

If it isn't a golf is doomed thread you will make it one. We get it.

[Ryan Coles]

Fortunately there are now a number of people in the upper echelons of architecture that understand this issue of sustainability. You don't have to believe me or them. It would however be an idea for you to look at all the moderately priced newer courses which survive without too much trade. I suspect Jon Wiggett's course up in Scotland might be a good starting point. I can't force anyone to accept the evidence though.

Glaring contradiction here.

What evidence?

The upper echelons are about big business, big risk, big potential profit. Jon's type place is not being built by the upper echelons. The upper echelons fee alone blows your notion out of the water - someone has to pay for that.

Affordable golf? You do nothing but deride it as conveyer belt, stack it high, sell it cheap. Middle of the road are 'mutton dressed as lamb' and the expensive ones are unsustainable and symbolic of all that is wrong with golf.

You seem very confused. You've managed to both castigate and applaud low end pay and play, middle of the road and high end all in the same thread.

[Tim Martin]

Ryan,

It has nothing to do with a like or dislike of markets. One of the things you've said which I actually agree about is that profit isn't the enemy. What I would add however is that the pursuit of every last penny isn't generally very effective. That is seemingly what isn't clear to you. Maybe that's my fault. It's simply about recognising that all business models have to include reasonable tolerance levels, including demand tolerance. If you don't have that, you have a recipe for disaster. If you don't have those tolerance levels you have a product which looks rosy during a boom and looks like the end of the world when things drop off, hence all the 'golf is doomed' threads we see here.


  

If it isn't a golf is doomed thread you will make it one. We get it.

It really is exhausting. Give it a rest Paul.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Threads like this are why we can't have nice things.

Could be worse:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=107926751

[Paul Gray]

Fortunately there are now a number of people in the upper echelons of architecture that understand this issue of sustainability. You don't have to believe me or them. It would however be an idea for you to look at all the moderately priced newer courses which survive without too much trade. I suspect Jon Wiggett's course up in Scotland might be a good starting point. I can't force anyone to accept the evidence though.

Glaring contradiction here.

What evidence?

The upper echelons are about big business, big risk, big potential profit. Jon's type place is not being built by the upper echelons. The upper echelons fee alone blows your notion out of the water - someone has to pay for that.

Affordable golf? You do nothing but deride it as conveyer belt, stack it high, sell it cheap. Middle of the road are 'mutton dressed as lamb' and the expensive ones are unsustainable and symbolic of all that is wrong with golf.

You seem very confused. You've managed to both castigate and applaud low end pay and play, middle of the road and high end all in the same thread.

You don't get it.

The fact that Tom Doak, just for example, builds courses for high paying individuals doesn't mean that he hasn't written about sustainability in the game at all levels.

So, if you really, really want to categorise my views on golf courses in ridiculously simple terms, here it is.

Affordable Golf: I'm not deriding anyone that sells affordable golf and doesn't try to pile it high or pretend it's something it's not. Bread and butter courses generally give me far more pleasure than bread and butters which want to charge me to look at a fountain. I've made two specific references to courses in my area which do a very good job of doing just that because they didn't get caught up in the bullshit.

Middle of the Road: Well Knowle looks alright so no problems there, although the website suggests it was a lot nicer a century ago. That's simply the impression your website gives but, as I say, it looks OK now so no issue there, particularly as there is never a time at Knowle when you can't play as a single, or at least that's what's advertised.

Let me compare that for a minute with a club I used to work at. £40 green fee, over 1,000 members and no such thing as 'full,' inevitably therefore a great deal of discontent but a stellar Membership Manager that was getting them in as quickly as they were leaving. Terrible place where everyone got a raw deal. Oh, and 1,000 members meant it just about turned a profit. It's now 22 years old and has had four different sets of owners. That Membership Manager really was a god send for that business. He's moved on and isn't therefore there any more to do the Carphone Warehouse routine. Probably won't be trading in ten years time, which will be a shame for the old boys that threw £10,000 at the place when it first opened with the promise of 'best course in Hampshire.' Yep, mutton dressed as lamb would be a fair description.

Top End: All good with me, be that top table or second tier. I don't know why you thought I had a problem with classic architecture at classic courses which have happily stood the test of time with enough spare capacity to make the proprietaries more than a little bit jealous. You know, the sort of place where you can pop out for a few holes after work, on your own, bump into another golfer and join up if you wish. I like those places as much as the golfing populous does, if that is the unrivalled demand for such places for over a century is to be believed. And I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't believe it, unless that anyone wanted to bury his or her head in the sand. You might however think that in 100 years time the world will be left with a load of courses build in the 80's and 90's and all the old classics will be gone. I doubt that though.

I threatened to bow out of this a long time ago. God only knows Tim wishes I had. That is certainly now my aim.

[Ryan Coles]

You might however think that in 100 years time the world will be left with a load of courses build in the 80's and 90's and all the old classics will be gone. I doubt that though.

There you go again Paul. Where do you get this stuff?

Enough to argue with on here (and Lord knows you try) without making things up.

[Bryan Izatt]

Paul- Any expectation that Brian might have had to play in a twosome was born out of a sense of entitlement or naivety. Without knowing BryanI will certainly give him credit for the latter. Bearing in mind that there is no "two ball" culture in the US how would you have worked the tee sheet to everyone's satisfaction in the scenario that Bryan laid out. Remember we are talking about a daily fee course in Florida on New Year's Day and not the "British Model".

Tim,

I'm not naive nor do I have a sense of entitlement.  I purposely tried to book an open tee time.  I do it all the time and it usually works out that way.  Sometimes it doesn't because of demand.  Either is good.  When my wife plays she prefers to play on our own because she is intimidated by others.  Raptor Bay booked couple #2 into the tee time I booked.  I knew that could happen.  So, I'm not naive. I had agreed to play with the couple, but they didn't want to play with me because the other wife said she would be intimidated.  So we went separately.

I have no sense of entitlement.  It was a business transaction.  I paid the fees for 18 holes with a cart at a certain time.  They delivered that.  I have no hesitation in asking if there are other accommodations, like going ahead or playing alone, they can make if circumstances allow.  They might say no, and that's OK; or, they might say yes and that's better.  If you don't ask you don't get.

As for two ball cultures, I've played a lot in Florida over the holidays in the last decade and have rarely found playing as a 2 ball to be an issue.  Demand is outstripped by supply apparently.  When there is more demand, we get paired up, no problem.  But there is certainly no dogmatic 4-ball culture that I've noticed.  The tee times are for 4 - sometimes they're filled; often they are not.

As an example of the way another course handled tee times, on Jan 3 I played Twin Eagles, a private course that allows limited outside play in the afternoon on one of their two courses - at about the same price as Raptor Bay.  Conditions are impeccable.  When I dropped my bag I asked the guy how the tee sheet looked because I wanted to hit some balls to warm up, and how much time would I have.  He looked over to the range and said there was only a threesome to go  before me and nobody else for the afternoon.  With a wink he said I might want to hurry over and get ahead of them because they looked like they were going to be very slow.  I paid, went over to the starter about a minute before the threesome showed up.  I really wanted to hit balls, but the starter said that I should hustle up and go because this group was going to be very slow.  So, I went, and never saw the threesome again and didn't catch another group until the 18th.  I suppose some on here would suggest that I be paired up with the threesome so it'd be a foursome or that I should play after them because my booked tee time was after them.  But, the staff handled it well to my benefit and I'll certainly be back.  The course has a lot of architectural merit although few around here know it at all.

[Bryan Izatt]

Paul- Any expectation that Brian might have had to play in a twosome was born out of a sense of entitlement or naivety. Without knowing BryanI will certainly give him credit for the latter. Bearing in mind that there is no "two ball" culture in the US how would you have worked the tee sheet to everyone's satisfaction in the scenario that Bryan laid out. Remember we are talking about a daily fee course in Florida on New Year's Day and not the "British Model".

I'm a member of a private club in Upstate NY. In prime time you aren't allowed to play a two ball unless no one else is there to play with. If you want to play with your wife or kid in a two ball it's not a problem, just go in non prime time (weekends after 11).

Bryan was playing at a US resort. They aren't going to encourage two balls. They are trying to make a profit. It's no different in the UK. You think that Portrush and RCD are letting outside play in two balls? There trying to make money the same as the US resort.

The US resort courses (and even some residential private courses) don't encourage or discourage 2 balls.  They're looking for any number of people to try and fill their tee sheets.  Most I play use golfnow.com and there are plenty of tee times available, especially in the afternoon.  I think they're happy to have any number come out and pay and play.  If it gets really busy I'm sure they're happier still that more tee times end up being foursomes.

I suspect that very few resort courses have full time sheets all the time.  I expect most accommodate 2 balls and threesomes and even singles in an attempt to maximize income.

[Bryan Izatt]

Terms and conditions #1 of about a dozen when booking online at Carnoustie
1. twosomes may be paired with other players

Further to Mark's comments about The Old Course, I believe that R&A members can book 2 balls whenever they want.  Visitors who are 2 balls who win the lottery also get booked as a 2 ball.  In either case the starter will ask if they are willing to take on a standby single or two.  In either case they can decline.  In my limited experience they mostly agree (and once was declined).

At Carnoustie I have ended up paired in a foursome or also out in a twosome.  Depends on business.  However it turns out they have always been very nice. 

Same at North Berwick or Dornoch or Cruden Bay or Castle Stewart or Crail or ................  or even in Florida


 

[Greg Tallman]

Paul- Any expectation that Brian might have had to play in a twosome was born out of a sense of entitlement or naivety. Without knowing BryanI will certainly give him credit for the latter. Bearing in mind that there is no "two ball" culture in the US how would you have worked the tee sheet to everyone's satisfaction in the scenario that Bryan laid out. Remember we are talking about a daily fee course in Florida on New Year's Day and not the "British Model".

I'm a member of a private club in Upstate NY. In prime time you aren't allowed to play a two ball unless no one else is there to play with. If you want to play with your wife or kid in a two ball it's not a problem, just go in non prime time (weekends after 11).

Bryan was playing at a US resort. They aren't going to encourage two balls. They are trying to make a profit. It's no different in the UK. You think that Portrush and RCD are letting outside play in two balls? There trying to make money the same as the US resort.

The US resort courses (and even some residential private courses) don't encourage or discourage 2 balls.  They're looking for any number of people to try and fill their tee sheets.  Most I play use golfnow.com and there are plenty of tee times available, especially in the afternoon.  I think they're happy to have any number come out and pay and play.  If it gets really busy I'm sure they're happier still that more tee times end up being foursomes.

I suspect that very few resort courses have full time sheets all the time.  I expect most accommodate 2 balls and threesomes and even singles in an attempt to maximize income.

Of course, if the tee sheet allows one would have to be an idiot not to accommodate any logical request. There are those partaking in this discussion that seem to believe it is the right of anyone booking to demand playing as less than four regardless of volume of play at that time. 

[Carl Nichols]

Paul- Any expectation that Brian might have had to play in a twosome was born out of a sense of entitlement or naivety. Without knowing BryanI will certainly give him credit for the latter. Bearing in mind that there is no "two ball" culture in the US how would you have worked the tee sheet to everyone's satisfaction in the scenario that Bryan laid out. Remember we are talking about a daily fee course in Florida on New Year's Day and not the "British Model".

I'm a member of a private club in Upstate NY. In prime time you aren't allowed to play a two ball unless no one else is there to play with. If you want to play with your wife or kid in a two ball it's not a problem, just go in non prime time (weekends after 11).

Bryan was playing at a US resort. They aren't going to encourage two balls. They are trying to make a profit. It's no different in the UK. You think that Portrush and RCD are letting outside play in two balls? There trying to make money the same as the US resort.

The US resort courses (and even some residential private courses) don't encourage or discourage 2 balls.  They're looking for any number of people to try and fill their tee sheets.  Most I play use golfnow.com and there are plenty of tee times available, especially in the afternoon.  I think they're happy to have any number come out and pay and play.  If it gets really busy I'm sure they're happier still that more tee times end up being foursomes.

I suspect that very few resort courses have full time sheets all the time.  I expect most accommodate 2 balls and threesomes and even singles in an attempt to maximize income.

Of course, if the tee sheet allows one would have to be an idiot not to accommodate any logical request. There are those partaking in this discussion that seem to believe it is the right of anyone booking to demand playing as less than four regardless of volume of play at that time. 

Exactly

[Tim Martin]

Paul- Any expectation that Brian might have had to play in a twosome was born out of a sense of entitlement or naivety. Without knowing BryanI will certainly give him credit for the latter. Bearing in mind that there is no "two ball" culture in the US how would you have worked the tee sheet to everyone's satisfaction in the scenario that Bryan laid out. Remember we are talking about a daily fee course in Florida on New Year's Day and not the "British Model".

I'm a member of a private club in Upstate NY. In prime time you aren't allowed to play a two ball unless no one else is there to play with. If you want to play with your wife or kid in a two ball it's not a problem, just go in non prime time (weekends after 11).

Bryan was playing at a US resort. They aren't going to encourage two balls. They are trying to make a profit. It's no different in the UK. You think that Portrush and RCD are letting outside play in two balls? There trying to make money the same as the US resort.

The US resort courses (and even some residential private courses) don't encourage or discourage 2 balls.  They're looking for any number of people to try and fill their tee sheets.  Most I play use golfnow.com and there are plenty of tee times available, especially in the afternoon.  I think they're happy to have any number come out and pay and play.  If it gets really busy I'm sure they're happier still that more tee times end up being foursomes.

I suspect that very few resort courses have full time sheets all the time.  I expect most accommodate 2 balls and threesomes and even singles in an attempt to maximize income.

Of course, if the tee sheet allows one would have to be an idiot not to accommodate any logical request. There are those partaking in this discussion that seem to believe it is the right of anyone booking to demand playing as less than four regardless of volume of play at that time. 

Exactly

Agreed and that is the sentiment so many on here have tried to convey.

[Sean_A]

Not sure I am wrong simply because a four-ball starting at the same time will, by necessity of the game, finish at the same time. Consecutive two-ball group add more stop/start points, especially at the green-to-tee off transition, and there is a necessary delay in waiting for the group in front to clear. Flow is about getting people in and out in the most efficient manner possible.

My major issue was that Bryan sought the tee time behind the groups of twosomes on the tee sheet, and then assumed something of those groups in front. Six players had to get through the golf course that afternoon, and with their being the cap of sunset, the most effective way would have been for one of those groups to make a foursome behind the twosome.

Kyle

I think three 2balls should move quicker than a 4ball and a 2ball, so for time efficiency, I disagree with you.  Remember, 4balls on a public course in the States can easily take 5 hours.  Even a slow 2ball should finish in 4 hours.  Additionally, if you set off two 2balls they should beat the time of a 4ball.  Again, if the course is that crowded, 4balls are the only solution.  But Bryan presented a scenario in which it made perfect sense to remain as 2balls unless customers wanted to do something different. 

Ciao

[Bryan Izatt]

I agree with Sean on this - 2 two-balls is often faster than one four-ball although it depends to a degree on who the players are.

One more scenario from today.  I booked into an open slot at a private residential course.  When I arrived they asked me if I wanted to be paired up or play on my own.  I opted to go on my own.  Turned out that there was a two-ball in front and a two-ball behind me (last group of the day).

The front nine moved along quickly and there was really no conflict.  The starter asked me to give some space to the preceding two-ball and I did.  Never any intent of trying to play through. 

By the back nine it started to stack up a bit as there was another two-ball and then a 4-ball in front of the guys in front of me.  Everybody chilled out and didn't press but the pace was set by the leading four-ball.  I had time on my hands on the tees but sat back and relaxed.  Finished in 3:45 as the sun set.  Beautiful day.

The course was a Hurdzan-Fry.  Not as wild and challenging as my home courses but interesting in a low profile Florida way with large wavy greens.  The paspalum took some getting used too.  It's a little stickier around the greens and the greens also seemed somewhat slower but with no discernible grain.  They did keep it well watered.

[Rich Goodale]

Bryan et. al.

I'm going to be in Florida for a month, starting next week, and while I don't plan to play much golf over that period, when I do I plan to enjoy what is presented to me on the day.  My first (and only planned game) will be at a Doak 3 with my sister, brother and the pro.  Regardless of who is playing in front of us or behind us, I suspect that it will be golf as good as golf can be.

Rich

[Bill_McBride]

Bryan et. al.

I'm going to be in Florida for a month, starting next week, and while I don't plan to play much golf over that period, when I do I plan to enjoy what is presented to me on the day.  My first (and only planned game) will be at a Doak 3 with my sister, brother and the pro.  Regardless of who is playing in front of us or behind us, I suspect that it will be golf as good as golf can be.

Rich

It's only eight hours to Pensacola.   

[Bryan Izatt]

Bryan et. al.

I'm going to be in Florida for a month, starting next week, and while I don't plan to play much golf over that period, when I do I plan to enjoy what is presented to me on the day.  My first (and only planned game) will be at a Doak 3 with my sister, brother and the pro.  Regardless of who is playing in front of us or behind us, I suspect that it will be golf as good as golf can be.

Rich

I'm sure it will be great.  Now after you consult with Patrick about what one tee the four of you should play from ...................   

Anywhere down here looks good in January compared to Fife (or Toronto) - even the Florida standard trees down the left, water down the right.  See below.

[Mark Pearce]

Bryan,

I'm going to guess that most courses in Fife looked spectacular yesterday, in bright sunshine.  Nothing wrong with cold but dry golf on a sunny winter's day.

[Rich Goodale]

Bryan et. al.

I'm going to be in Florida for a month, starting next week, and while I don't plan to play much golf over that period, when I do I plan to enjoy what is presented to me on the day.  My first (and only planned game) will be at a Doak 3 with my sister, brother and the pro.  Regardless of who is playing in front of us or behind us, I suspect that it will be golf as good as golf can be.

Rich

I'm sure it will be great.  Now after you consult with Patrick about what one tee the four of you should play from ...................   

Anywhere down here looks good in January compared to Fife (or Toronto) - even the Florida standard trees down the left, water down the right.  See below.

I'll be playing from, the 6250 yard tips, which even I can still deal with.  My sister who is 72, 4' 11",  hits every shot dead straight ~120-150 yards, has never even contemplated the concept of hitting a high 9-iron with backspin and plays off 18.  She'll play from wherever she wants to, and will enjoy her game, assuming she is not consumed by an alligator.

Mark

Fife was not particularly fit for golf yesterday (or today, for that matter).  I am hopeful for tomorrow.

Rich

[Jon Cavalier]

Threads like this are why we can't have nice things.

Could be worse:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=107926751

Damn you, Mark. I just set fire to a good 30 minutes of my life reading that entire thread from front to back. I couldn't stop - it was like watching tire fire spread to a munitions dump. And I hate you for making me do that. But I kind of love you for it too. Wow.

[Bryan Izatt]

Rich,

You might want to keep your sister (and yourself) away from this 8 foot beast.  I let him/her play through on the 15th tee at Twin Eagles.

I'm sure you'll have a good time no matter what tees you play.




Mark,

There is a world of difference playing in cold sunny winter Fifean golf and sunny, hot winter golf in Florida.  In winter i'd rather be in Florida; in summer Fife win hands down.  How can you not like a course and setting and weather like this in January. Great shaping and contouring by Steve Smyers.

[Cliff Hamm]

Played Twin Eagles in the fall of 2013.  Course was thin on the fairways as it was still growing in. Told it would be fine but there was a bachelor party ahead of us.  It wasn't.  Complained to a ranger a couple of times and told there was nothing he could do.  Walked off, actually rode off, after about 13.  Experience can vary depending on what day you play.

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