[Paul Gray]

Greg,

Clearly we come from very different golf ciltures and, despite my pointing out specific examples, both professional and private, you seem to refuse to believe me when I tell you that outside of your bubble, for a great many people that play golf on this planet, your mercenary behaviour is not the norm. It may be what you need to do to survive as a business and keep your financiers happy but it isn't the norm for an overwhelming percentage of golfers. Again, whilst that's fine in a business sense, don't expect a consumer to applaud it simply because it pays your wages.

And if your position is so universally acknowledged without any need to be upfront about it, how come you find yourself having to march people to the car park? Clearly not everyone is as au fait with your policy as you suggest.

Like I said, if you're absolutely upfront about it and make it clear that yours is a conveyor belt operation, fair enough. I imagine that lady that's an absolute beginner won't be booking up, certainly not after she's been grouped in with three scratch golfers but, if she does play, she'll have no one to blame but herself for failing to read the terms and conditions.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Mark,

Not sure if your tongue is in your cheek or not, but if that is the proper way to raise children at that age, to be prepared for competitive anything, then I am  really saddened for the children.  It seems like a poor way to prepare children for life, but that's just me.  

Bryan,

Yes my tongue was in my cheek. Anyone who's actually read the academic literature on excellence in sports performance knows the "10,000 hour rule" is bullshit, more so for individual sports like golf. It does help if you're looking to produce an above-average musician, which is as far as Ericsson's study went. (Sometimes I tell people that Malcolm Gladwell's books should come with black-box warnings, and they should, but usually it's best to remain mum: why share best practices?)

[Sam Morrow]

Threads like this are why we can't have nice things.

[Greg Tallman]

Greg,

Clearly we come from very different golf ciltures and, despite my pointing out specific examples, both professional and private, you seem to refuse to believe me when I tell you that outside of your bubble, for a great many people that play golf on this planet, your mercenary behaviour is not the norm. "Mercenary behavior"? Now you are crossing the line my friend. This topic started in reference to a resort/public facility in Florida in the dead of winter. If you know not of what you speak then refrain from uninformed commentary.

It may be what you need to do to survive as a business and keep your financiers happy but it isn't the norm for an overwhelming percentage of golfers. It is, quite simply, the manner in which reservations are booked at every public/resort facility on this side of the pond and thus your allegations of fraudulent practices are, quite frankly, bullshit.

Again, whilst that's fine in a business sense, don't expect a consumer to applaud it simply because it pays your wages. Nobody is asking anyone to applaud. We are asking that the wither respect the norm or seek their pleasure elsewhere as all they will do at ours, or any other similar facility, during a busy period is ruin not only their own day but most likely that of two additional unsuspecting and innocent guests.

And if your position is so universally acknowledged without any need to be upfront about it, how come you find yourself having to march people to the car park? Rather simple answer here, because assholes with a sense of entitlement are in no short supply these days. The me, me, me culture is alive and well.

Clearly not everyone is as au fait with your policy as you suggest.

Like I said, if you're absolutely upfront about it and make it clear that yours is a conveyor belt operation, fair enough. Now who is the bubble? You cannot be so hard headed as to not understand that at a public facility each tee time has four available spots. Hell, under your premise I should be able to reserve a single seat on a flight, get their a bit early, stretch out across all three seats and refuse to move for those holding tickets to the seats across which I am lying. Give that one a try.

I imagine that lady that's an absolute beginner won't be booking up, certainly not after she's been grouped in with three scratch golfers but, if she does play, she'll have no one to blame but herself for failing to read the terms and conditions. Now you are simply being an ass. Terms and conditions? Try common knowledge. And for the record those that are adamant about playing as a twosome can (nowadays) be directed to times where this would be most likely.

[Tim Martin]

Threads like this are why we can't have nice things.

 

[Paul Gray]

Greg,

Well thank you for now at least adding the caveat of "on this side of the pond." For a while there you seemed convinced that your model was actually normal elsewhere. It isn't

But like I said, if people know the deal and you can sell that conveyor belt to them, more power to you. Just please don't get on your high horse when someone suggests your model is more than a little mercenary in nature. There's a socio-politic theory that we're all Reagan/Thatcherites now. Clearly. And so much so that a liberal like me ends up in bed with the old school conservatives. Everyone that arrives in your car park apparently has a fee attached to them and that fee can't be cashed in until you find three other punters with the same tag. I'm not personally convinced that surreptitiously borrowing a formula from venture capitalism is a smart move for a golf club but it's not my enterprise on the line.   

All this said, please don't ever start a thread expressing your surprise that golf is apparently dying before getting your hands on a mirror. Like you suggest, people vote with their feet and Bryan has already stated that he won't be back to that particular venue. A bird in the hand.....

But again, if people start walking you can usually get them in through the front door just as quickly as others are exiting through the back door so long as you flash some cash at a salesman. There really is a mark on every corner, at least until supply finally runs out. I find ponds usually help, particularly when all you've got left to scoop up is the dregs.

I really am done here.

[Bob_Huntley]

A good many years ago I was standing on the 1st tee on the Old Course with a fellow member of the R&A. The starter came over to us and asked if we would accept a chap who had  been hanging around for hours.  The chap was Japanese and we had heard stories that this might be a bit of problem. We agreed and asked him his handicap, he mentioned something like "single figures''.   

We teed off and he birdied the first and second just as a start and gave us an unspoken lesson all day long. Not much English and a delightful companion for the round.

We remained in touch over the years which produced, in a roundabout way, a rather generous donation to the San Francisco Opera.

I have always said that golf has given us more good experiences than bad and remember that you are fit and well, walking on God's green turf and for most people, there is always another day.

Bob

[Greg Tallman]

Greg,

Well thank you for now at least adding the caveat of "on this side of the pond." For a while there you seemed convinced that your model was actually normal elsewhere. It isn't Old Course, Kingsbarns, Castle Stuart...etc

But like I said, if people know the deal and you can sell that conveyor belt to them, more power to you. Just please don't get on your high horse when someone suggests your model is more than a little mercenary in nature. There's a socio-politic theory that we're all Reagan/Thatcherites now. Clearly. And so much so that a liberal like me ends up in bed with the old school conservatives. Everyone that arrives in your car park apparently has a fee attached to them and that fee can't be cashed in until you find three other punters with the same tag. I'm not personally convinced that surreptitiously borrowing a formula from venture capitalism is a smart move for a golf club but it's not my enterprise on the line.   

Of course we would all prefer to play on a course with our chosen group and not be bothered by others. That is why people join private clubs or book entire tee times and seek out playing companions.

All this said, please don't ever start a thread expressing your surprise that golf is apparently dying before getting your hands on a mirror. Like you suggest, people vote with their feet and Bryan has already stated that he won't be back to that particular venue. A bird in the hand.....
I really don't get Bryan's beef. he had a tee time, others had a time in front of him. Was the starter supposed to ask them to step aside so Bryan could go in there spot? What is the perfect solution in Bryan's mind? if that has been offered I missed it.

But again, if people start walking you can usually get them in through the front door just as quickly as others are exiting through the back door so long as you flash some cash at a salesman. There really is a mark on every corner, at least until supply finally runs out. I find ponds usually help, particularly when all you've got left to scoop up is the dregs.

So a fantastic private club that tees groups off each 10-12 minutes is just as bad right? It appears you have a problem with starting times to begin with. Again that is people love and join clubs without... we would all prefer to play under those conditions I would guess but unless you price most out of the market it isn't going to be the norm.

I really am done here.

[Greg Tallman]

A good many years ago I was standing on the 1st tee on the Old Course with a fellow member of the R&A. The starter came over to us and asked if we would accept a chap who had  been hanging around for hours.  The chap was Japanese and we had heard stories that this might be a bit of problem. We agreed and asked him his handicap, he mentioned something like "single figures''.   

We teed off and he birdied the first and second just as a start and gave us an unspoken lesson all day long. Not much English and a delightful companion for the round.

We remained in touch over the years which produced, in a roundabout way, a rather generous donation to the San Francisco Opera.

I have always said that golf has given us more good experiences than bad and remember that you are fit and well, walking on God's green turf and for most people, there is always another day.

Bob

 

[Tim Martin]

Paul-Trying to compare the British model to the way a golf course operates in Florida on New Year's Day is a fools errand. Greg has stuck to the scenario at hand while you have made this into a manifesto on the state of the game. It would be nice if Bryan could have gone off as a two ball just like it would be nice if it never rained. Unfortunately that isn't the way things work.

[Paul Gray]

Greg,

One last post about pricing people out: how does £1,200 per year for unlimited golf on a classic links sound to you? No need to book, no minimum bar spent, no need to take a buggy or rent a trolley or whatever other add ons clubs might dream up and certainly no problem with going out as a single, a two or three ball. The club has very healthy finances. Be my guest if you're ever about and, as a guest of a member, £25 is all it'll cost you. And we're relatively expensive.

I know we have natural advantages but then that's kind of the point. If your business model involves squeezing ever last penny out of the 99th and 100th percentile, don't be surprised that you sometimes feel as if you're fire fighting.

But this really is part of a bigger issue which isn't really about you and me disagreeing about anything. For me at least, this is really just part of the issue which Tom Doak amongst others has been writing about for a while, namely that until golfers' expectations regarding conditions are brought back down to Earth, overheads will always be such that many clubs in America will struggle and there is a perception thereof that the game is on its last doomed legs. In short, you (and I don't literally mean you) just need too many golfers in order to balance the books. That fails whether you're in Florida, China or Scotland.

PS: Please note that I did actually make reference to TOC earlier in all of this. Wonderful though it is, no one can deny it's a tourist venue and therefore not indicative of a traditional British model.

[Paul Gray]

Paul-Trying to compare the British model to the way a golf course operates in Florida on New Year's Day is a fools errand. Greg has stuck to the scenario at hand while you have made this into a manifesto on the state of the game. It would be nice if Bryan could have gone off as a two ball just like it would be nice if it never rained. Unfortunately that isn't the way things work.

Respectfully Tim, Greg said it was recognised as the norm by 99.99% of golfers. I merely pointed out that he was wrong.

[Ryan Coles]

Greg,

One last post about pricing people out: how does £1,200 per year for unlimited golf on a classic links sound to you? No need to book, no minimum bar spent, no need to take a buggy or rent a trolley or whatever other add ons clubs might dream up and certainly no problem with going out as a single, a two or three ball. The club has very healthy finances. Be my guest if you're ever about and, as a guest of a member, £25 is all it'll cost you. And we're relatively expensive.

I know we have natural advantages but then that's kind of the point. If your business model involves squeezing ever last penny out of the 99th and 100th percentile, don't be surprised that you sometimes feel as if you're fire fighting.

But this really is part of a bigger issue which isn't really about you and me disagreeing about anything. For me at least, this is really just part of the issue which Tom Doak amongst others has been writing about for a while, namely that until golfers' expectations regarding conditions are brought back down to Earth, overheads will always be such that many clubs in America will struggle and there is a perception thereof that the game is on its last doomed legs. In short, you (and I don't literally mean you) just need too many golfers in order to balance the books. That fails whether you're in Florida, China or Scotland.

PS: Please note that I did actually make reference to TOC earlier in all of this. Wonderful though it is, no one can deny it's a tourist venue and therefore not indicative of a traditional British model.

Paul

That's just a long winded way of saying the current members are simply drinking from the well of the old guys who picked up the tab originally.

Get a few of your fellow members together and start a golf club. See how far your £1,200 gets you even with a no frills operation and even here in quaint old England. There really is nothing for you to be so smug about.

Golf in the UK is so great because someone else paid the bills and gave it to us years ago. This doesn't make us superior to those who have to pay their own way.

[Paul Gray]

Ryan,

You work at a proprietary?

And I'm not so sure that the very good municipal near me was bankrolled by a Sugar Daddy back in 1972. It was simply built with a bit of sense and zero desire to throw cash at superficial overheads. And that's why it's still going strong and I can play it for a tenner.

Anyhow, you're referring to start up costs. Please expand on how that relates to the variable costs I referred to. I have absolutely no idea how new or old any of the referred to Floridian courses are or whether the start up loans are paid off or not. I'm equally not sure why you seemingly think the consumer should make allowances for that either. Either you're in a position to make ends meet AND keep consumers happy or you're not. And if you're not, what has to change? Again, I'll suggest your efficiency drives should begin with conditioning.  

But yet again, customers might be happy and the bills might be getting paid. If so, great. I simply don't have to want to play there, nor does Bryan.

But this isn't getting us anywhere. Bryan has suggested that he was more concerned about seven years being treated as future meal tickets, or at least that's what I took from it.

[Tim Martin]

Paul- Any expectation that Brian might have had to play in a twosome was born out of a sense of entitlement or naivety. Without knowing BryanI will certainly give him credit for the latter. Bearing in mind that there is no "two ball" culture in the US how would you have worked the tee sheet to everyone's satisfaction in the scenario that Bryan laid out. Remember we are talking about a daily fee course in Florida on New Year's Day and not the "British Model".

[Paul Gray]

Tim,

Bryan did say there was space in front, no? In fact, he actually asked to fill that space and not make the lady feel uncomfortable.

[Ryan Coles]

Ryan,

You work at a proprietary?

And I'm not so sure that the very good municipal near me was bankrolled by a Sugar Daddy back in 1972. It was simply built with a bit of sense and zero desire to throw cash at superficial overheads. And that's why it's still going strong and I can play it for a tenner.

Anyhow, you're referring to start up costs. Please expand on how that relates to the variable costs I referred to. I have absolutely no idea how new or old any of the referred to Floridian courses are or whether the start up loans are paid off or not. I'm equally not sure why you seemingly think the consumer should make allowances for that either. Either you're in a position to make ends meet AND keep consumers happy or you're not. And if you're not, what has to change? Again, I'll suggest your efficiency drives should begin with conditioning. 

But yet again, customers might be happy and the bills might be getting paid. If so, great. I simply don't have to want to play there, nor does Bryan.

But this is getting us anywhere. Bryan has suggested that he was more concerned about seven years being treated as future meal tickets, or at least that's what I took from it.

No, it's a Members Club and it gives me a useful insight into the advantages that these types of Club has and shows that in many respects they are exempt from financial obligations. Your Club for example has traded at a loss for 10 of the last 12 years. Your Club is still ok financially but that can't go on forever.

Take your £1,200 gather up all your mates and see how far it gets you. Have a course run it to break even without anything unnecessary and see how you get on, even with your 'bit of sense'.

You introduced your Club into the discussion. It's a false comparison. Someone else paid for it. Your £1,200 represents a greatly subsidised way of playing. Start up costs = costs. Costs are not paid by the tooth fairy and neither is profit the enemy.

In addition, you seem to want it both ways, in this thread alone you both bemoan the "I've paid therefore I am" mentality and then you pull it out yourself when faced with a scenario you don't agree with.

[John Kavanaugh]

Bryan could have just paid for the last full priced time.

[Tim Martin]

Ryan,

You work at a proprietary?

And I'm not so sure that the very good municipal near me was bankrolled by a Sugar Daddy back in 1972. It was simply built with a bit of sense and zero desire to throw cash at superficial overheads. And that's why it's still going strong and I can play it for a tenner.

Anyhow, you're referring to start up costs. Please expand on how that relates to the variable costs I referred to. I have absolutely no idea how new or old any of the referred to Floridian courses are or whether the start up loans are paid off or not. I'm equally not sure why you seemingly think the consumer should make allowances for that either. Either you're in a position to make ends meet AND keep consumers happy or you're not. And if you're not, what has to change? Again, I'll suggest your efficiency drives should begin with conditioning. 

But yet again, customers might be happy and the bills might be getting paid. If so, great. I simply don't have to want to play there, nor does Bryan.

But this is getting us anywhere. Bryan has suggested that he was more concerned about seven years being treated as future meal tickets, or at least that's what I took from it.

No, it's a Members Club and it gives me a useful insight into the advantages that these types of Club has and shows that in many respects they are exempt from financial obligations. Your Club for example has traded at a loss for 10 of the last 12 years. Your Club is still ok financially but that can't go on forever.

Take your £1,200 gather up all your mates and see how far it gets you. Have a course run it to break even without anything unnecessary and see how you get on, even with your 'bit of sense'.

You introduced your Club into the discussion. It's a false comparison. Someone else paid for it. Your £1,200 represents a greatly subsidised way of playing. Start up costs = costs. Costs are not paid by the tooth fairy and neither is profit the enemy.

In addition, you seem to want it both ways, in this thread alone you both bemoan the "I've paid therefore I am" mentality and then you pull it out yourself when faced with a scenario you don't agree with.

As Ryan stated it isn't as easy as forking over 1,200 Euros and everything is right with the world. Come on over to the US and it's a new day.

[Rob Marshall]

Paul- Any expectation that Brian might have had to play in a twosome was born out of a sense of entitlement or naivety. Without knowing BryanI will certainly give him credit for the latter. Bearing in mind that there is no "two ball" culture in the US how would you have worked the tee sheet to everyone's satisfaction in the scenario that Bryan laid out. Remember we are talking about a daily fee course in Florida on New Year's Day and not the "British Model".

I'm a member of a private club in Upstate NY. In prime time you aren't allowed to play a two ball unless no one else is there to play with. If you want to play with your wife or kid in a two ball it's not a problem, just go in non prime time (weekends after 11).

Bryan was playing at a US resort. They aren't going to encourage two balls. They are trying to make a profit. It's no different in the UK. You think that Portrush and RCD are letting outside play in two balls? There trying to make money the same as the US resort.

[jeffwarne]

Terms and conditions #1 of about a dozen when booking online at Carnoustie
1. twosomes may be paired with other players

[Paul Gray]

The financial position of my club is a little more complex than that. I really can't say anymore. I presume, since you suggest something has to give, that you envisage a wave of classic courses having to close in the next ten years since apparently what they're doing isn't sustainable?

Consumers vote with their feet. They couldn't give two hoots about how they're required to pay top whack for a five hour round because the club needs to have the course at near capacity in order to meet variable costs. Demand for that product is falling. It's falling because people aren't interested in models which only work when run at near full capacity. Pointing out this obvious flaw really shouldn't be a reason for anyone to get upset, unless of course you'd rather not address the reality of the situation and the mess the game got itself into in the 80's and 90's. Conversely, the books are full at my club, save for, I believe, a few spots for beginners. Full means something like 300 full members. We don't advertise for new members. We don't have a Membership Manager. We could employ one and quadruple membership within a month. We could send green fee revenue through the roof. We don't want to. We don't need to. I can bore you all night with my dissertation on Keynesian Economics in Western Economies Driven by Supply Side Policy if you like. Actually, I have absolutely no desire to do that.

Fortunately there are now a number of people in the upper echelons of architecture that understand this issue of sustainability. You don't have to believe me or them. It would however be an idea for you to look at all the moderately priced newer courses which survive without too much trade. I suspect Jon Wiggett's course up in Scotland might be a good starting point. I can't force anyone to accept the evidence though. And contrary to what you may think, I have no personal fight in all of this.

[Mark Pearce]

Paul-Trying to compare the British model to the way a golf course operates in Florida on New Year's Day is a fools errand. Greg has stuck to the scenario at hand while you have made this into a manifesto on the state of the game. It would be nice if Bryan could have gone off as a two ball just like it would be nice if it never rained. Unfortunately that isn't the way things work.

Sorry Tim but that's simply not true.  Greg has given a lecture on global golf economics, he has been deaf to the difference i cultures, which has explicitly been mentioned and he is the one who has made this a manifesto.  In any case, given how quiet the course was behind, even in Florida his arguments are clearly false, at least in this case.

[Mark Pearce]

Terms and conditions #1 of about a dozen when booking online at Carnoustie
1. twosomes may be paired with other players

Jeff,

I'm not sure how relevant that is.  Firstly it is Carnoustie, so far from typical.  Secondly the word MAY seems the key.  If the course is busy and all times taken, then sure, they may try to pair groups up.  They won't if there are free times.  A contrary example would be TOC where they may ask if you will accept other golfers (as Bob's example shows) but a two-ball is quite within its rights to refuse and play as a two-ball.  But I think you have played enough golf in the UK to know that that is the norm.

[Ryan Coles]

The financial position of my club is a little more complex than that. I really can't say anymore. I presume, since you suggest something has to give, that you envisage a wave of classic courses having to close in the next ten years since apparently what they're doing isn't sustainable?

Paul

Read more. Type less.

'I presume' 'you suggest' 'you envisage' 'apparently'

All mealy mouthed attempts at complete misrepresentation of what I wrote.

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