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Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re: Hazards That Defeat the Aerial Game
« Reply #25 on: December 31, 2014, 10:07:18 AM »
Tom,
The first thing that came to mind when reading the first post was SUNINGDALE fulfills every criteria mentioned.
Then the more I think about it, Colt in general.
The more I study architecture the more I like Colt courses, I know that many consider his greens rather balnd and uninterseting but they are very "fair" for evry type of player, aerial or on the ground whilst his appraoches are always ground game friendly.
I played Ganton for the first time this summer and totally fell in love with the place and found that it suited both myslef and my long ball hitting companion who has hardly ever had the opportunity to play the ground game.
The cool thing about a place like Ganton, Sunningdale or Woodhall Spa is to play two balls on each hole one your aerial ball and one your ground game ball and see what works the best.....both usually work. ;D

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Hazards That Defeat the Aerial Game
« Reply #26 on: December 31, 2014, 10:15:07 AM »
The plateau green argument is an interesting one. When I came back from Dornoch in June, I started a thread asking which links courses were examples of promoting the aerial game, citing Dornoch as one. But in reality, low raised plateaux with open fronts like many at Dornoch promote a partial ground game, certainly downwind. If I think of examples on Portmarnock (because I know it far better), then the 18th could be taken straight from Dornoch. The only way to approach that green from a distance is to land it short and take a run up the bank after one or two bounces.

Similarly when designing, if you can choose a raised green site with 15-20 yards of fairway run-in at approximately the same level, this allows for most ground game options. The only options ruled out are the genuine 'don't break the wrists' 5-irons from 90 yards.

Paul Gray

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Re: Hazards That Defeat the Aerial Game
« Reply #27 on: December 31, 2014, 10:33:14 AM »
Adam - I agree with you.  Plateau greens are really about aerial golf.  Some are done to accept flatter shots (ie not too steep or with bunkers in the face), but there is also the angle of approach to consider...which is why I tend to prefer severe plateau greens as shortish par 3s or short 4s.  

Ciao

Well....

Note: 5th at Hayling, summer, front pin (or middle), DO NOT try to fly it there.  ;D

Note Two: I would modify my initial comments about plateau greens in so much as any plateau has to be relatively small. If the green is too large, I would agree that it permits an aerial approach.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2014, 10:35:56 AM by Paul Gray »
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

SL_Solow

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Re: Hazards That Defeat the Aerial Game
« Reply #28 on: December 31, 2014, 10:39:16 AM »
Very few people have commented on the "trees" close to the green" stratagem.  At my home club, Briarwood, an American Elm that survived the Dutch elm infestation stands about 40 yards short of the right side of our 18th green.  !8 is a par 4 of about 380 from the members tees with bunkers pinching the fairway at about 230 where the fairway bends left and a downhill slope follows beyond the bunkers.  The green is severely sloped back to front.  A big drive will leave a short iron (wedge) but the slope will leave one with the tree as an obstacle, particularly if the pin is on the right.  Many long hitters hate the hole because their wedges catch the top branches.  I have pointed out on numerous occasions that one is not required to play the hole with a driver and wedge.  Indeed one can play shots from different angles and at different heights but it doesn't seem to sink in.  As a matter of full disclosure, our good friend Terry Lavin calls it the worst tree in Chicago area golf.   I am not sure he would insist on the geographic limitation.  Nonetheless, it illustrates Tom's point.

Mark Saltzman

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Re: Hazards That Defeat the Aerial Game
« Reply #29 on: December 31, 2014, 10:49:41 AM »
So is #3 at RMW the embodiment of Tom's OP?

Tim Gavrich

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Re: Hazards That Defeat the Aerial Game
« Reply #30 on: December 31, 2014, 10:55:19 AM »
I'm a bit thick, but it seems to me that fallaway greens should be easier to approach with a higher shot, since most running shots are going to have more forward velocity (and no backspin) when they first make contact with the green. To a middle or back pin on a fallaway green, a higher shot that lands on the front half of the green is not going to have much trouble staying near pin-high, whereas most low running shots are going to scoot through the green altogether.

Happy to be shown where I'm wrong in my thinking, but from experience, I find that a fallaway green is going to make me think more about wanting to bring the ball in with a little more spin and height, all things being equal. If I need to hit a low shot into a green, I'll feel really good about it sloping back at me, since I can "kill" the ball into the slope to slow it down.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Don Mahaffey

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Re: Hazards That Defeat the Aerial Game
« Reply #31 on: December 31, 2014, 11:08:36 AM »
Tim,
I don't think it is about easy as much as it is about uncertainty.
Even with everything mentioned already, a perfectly placed aerial shot will work, but the ridges in greens, the fall away, trees...whatever, i
but, fallaway firm green and now you know you have to hit a perfect shot and you might consider the ground approach in certain conditions...down wind, dry, a little off that day....I don't think you eliminate either option, just even it out a bit.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2014, 11:19:55 AM by Don Mahaffey »

David Ober

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Re: Hazards That Defeat the Aerial Game
« Reply #32 on: December 31, 2014, 11:27:16 AM »
Tom,

I'm a big fan of both fallaway greens and ridges in either the middle or front of greens. They make approach shots so much more interesting to me. I have to determine WHERE I want to land my ball and HOW I want the ball coming in. One can't just get a yardage number and fire away like you can on so many holes.

jeffwarne

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Re: Hazards That Defeat the Aerial Game
« Reply #33 on: December 31, 2014, 11:37:34 AM »
I hate to point it out but slower speeds on the green surfaces tend to help the ground game but not the aerial game. If you trim the green surroundings down to a low fairway cut and the putting surfaces are Stimping maybe 8 or 9 it is much easier to judge how a ball will roll when it runs for a while on fairway then finishes on the green. Conversely, if the greens are running 10, 11, 12 and the surrounds have any dampness or grain to them the extreme difference in rolling speed once the ball is on the green becomes devilish to judge.

+1

and while I'm all for firmness of surface, given that we rarely see it, certainly greens that run away would be VERY simply answer to encourage runup shots, and super fast greens usually discourage that (to say nothing of the fact that super fast usually means soft-in both greens and approaches)

to take it a step farther, I'd stop cutting approaches within an inch of their life and spending precious resources on construction as Don points out, and rather achieve firmness with a healthier(higher) height of cut which allows less life support moisture required
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

BCrosby

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Re: Hazards That Defeat the Aerial Game
« Reply #34 on: December 31, 2014, 12:00:00 PM »
While I agree with Brent's point about firmness of greens v. surrounds and how they should be sync'ed up, TD is asking a different question. He wants to know what 'architectural' features best counter the aerial game.

If pros are hitting lofted approaches (and they are if the course is less than, say, 7400 yds), I don't think there is a happy answer. With such clubs in their hands, there is no target too small. A 'sucker pin' has no meaning to them. They simply don't see a hole's architecture.

The problem is better attacked from the tee end.

Bob   

Tom_Doak

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Re: Hazards That Defeat the Aerial Game
« Reply #35 on: December 31, 2014, 01:13:45 PM »
While I agree with Brent's point about firmness of greens v. surrounds and how they should be sync'ed up, TD is asking a different question. He wants to know what 'architectural' features best counter the aerial game.

If pros are hitting lofted approaches (and they are if the course is less than, say, 7400 yds), I don't think there is a happy answer. With such clubs in their hands, there is no target too small. A 'sucker pin' has no meaning to them. They simply don't see a hole's architecture.

The problem is better attacked from the tee end.

Bob   

Bob:

I don't agree with your second paragraph ... I think of a hole like the 12th at St. Andrews, where the little shelf they put the flag on is not deep enough for the pros to confidently stick it, even from 50 yards away.  [Of course, most of them try to drive it up around the green now.]

However, I'm more curious about your last line there.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Hazards That Defeat the Aerial Game
« Reply #36 on: December 31, 2014, 01:20:11 PM »
I have used overhanging tree branches, lined up to influence the shot from one side of the fw, while the other was wide open.  

I have used a small mound or ridge right in front of the green to deflect the aerial shot, but find it needs to be right at the front edge of the green, no more than a few yards in front.  I usually don't favor a lot of wobble in run up approach areas, believing predictability enhances the chance of anyone playing that way.  

I have used reverse slope greens, but have come to the conclusion that the best players just add more spin, much like hitting a high cut into a Redan.  I find they work best on long par 4 holes or maybe reachable par 5 holes (like 14 at Oakland Hills, which I think plays 5 for member, 4 for championships)

Like TD, I think of it as trying to provide a variety of shot challenges, not some kind of punishment.  I do see resistance as in, "why would you do THAT?"

I agree that moderate speed works just as well with ground game as truly firm and fast.  Its all about predictability.

As such, I limit my use of those features to no more than a few per course where they seem to occur naturally.  My guess is most players find the alternative fun once in a while, but don't want to play that way on every hole.

As to what size shelf players may go for, I once heard JN say he wouldn't attack a shelf less than 40 ft wide and deep.  Some question that, but IMHO, if Jack won't do it, no one should!  My minimum shelf area in design is actually 45', figuring the players have less talent than Jack, and it may grow in over time.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

RJ_Daley

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Re: Hazards That Defeat the Aerial Game
« Reply #37 on: December 31, 2014, 01:29:54 PM »
I agree that it is futile to even include pros into this discussion.  They can and will genrally seek the aerial game, no matter what you design into the configuration of the hole.  

I think one aspect that works against some of our conventional wisdom about modern design whereby we always call for less emphasis on length of courses, is that it seems some of our solutions to promoting the ground game include how the green is presented, offering a long running approach way into the green, firm and fast, with the fall away aspect of the green, and internal ridges and contours on the green.  

I was thinking of 13 at Tom's home course, Crystal Downs.   I only played there once.  But, I remember that the presentation into the green is that of a higher area with bunker in the left side approach, a bit of distance from the largish green, and a flatter and long run approach from the middle and to the right into the green.  The green is a fall away with a ridge down to a back right lower terrace.  All of those aspects seem to me to promote the bounding into that green the closer approached and flirting from the left near the left bunker, the more favorable of a roll into the green on a good angle to take into account the two tiered fall away from a diagonal ridge running 11 o'clock to 5 o'clock.  

My memory of Crystal Downs also leads me to wonder if the 6th with the "Maxwell Rolls" and generally low profile green from the approach, might be design features that promote a low approach.  One play doesn't 'crystalize' my memory enough to say for sure if that hole design is a promoter of the ground game.

But, with the ball in implement performance tech, the aerial game even for mid and high handicappers promote the easier choice to use a hybrid or mid iron and launch into the air.  The only real situation the golfer might consider is that the green is a bit out of their second shot range, and they must use the foregreen to bound one to get all the way there.  Therefore, we are generally talking about a long par 4 or short barely drivable par 5, or a long biarritz type par 3.  All of that gererally is additive to overall course yardage.  

The low profile green at ground level approach of a hole like 12 at Rustic Canyon, with a fall away to the right and junk to left of the green and left approach is also a design I think might promote a ground running shot.  The trick is obviously how much to gauge in the strength of the punch of a running shot to give the stroke and get the ball to stop on the green, not run through.  The par 3 at Rustic, with large green, low profile, internal rolls, and junk to the rear is also something of a desired low running shot to be landed short of the green and a run on.  

Finally, the long long par 5 at the Plantation Course we will see next week on tour, seems to be the prototype where the long down hill aspect, and huge sloped right side approach is the one place we see the pros use that ground bounding approach.  Again, an aspect that leans towards the distance factor and downward wide berth foregreen needing the ground game to get home, as the primary design feature to promote the ground game.  The trouble with that is that it also includes the aerial game by definition, that the second shot needs to sail a hell of a long way aw well as take the ground bound to get home.  So it isn't the pure ground game, deftly hit low punch of a shot.  

« Last Edit: December 31, 2014, 01:33:46 PM by RJ_Daley »
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Grant Saunders

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Re: Hazards That Defeat the Aerial Game
« Reply #38 on: December 31, 2014, 01:39:39 PM »
Can someone please attempt to clarify for me what constitutes as the "ground game".

I see it talked about constantly but I cant help but think it means different things to different people.

Does a shot have to be played with a maximum loft?

Must the ball travel a certain percentage of its total distance on the turf (eg a 100 metre shot must roll at least 25 metres along the ground after 75 metres in the air)?

Can a ball land on a green and rolling 30 metres be considered a ground game shot or is it deemed aerial as it landed on the putting surface?

Must a ball reach a maximum height off the ground at its apex?


Adam_Messix

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Re: Hazards That Defeat the Aerial Game
« Reply #39 on: December 31, 2014, 01:44:00 PM »
Mark--

The 3rd at RMW is to me the ultimate example of how a precision short par 4 should look... a little valley in front and a green that floats away.  It's just so hard to get the ball close there and the best approach may be a pitch and run through the valley.  

I'm not sure who said it, I heard someone say once that "the ultimate hazard on a golf course is short grass."  I would probably say "short grass and contour."  Outside of wind... which is always a factor with anything aerial... the best way to really mess with the head of a really good player is to have a lot of contouring both in and around the greens or internal fairway slope and movement like you see in the rolls on the Old Course or just general movement like you see in the fairways at Oakmont.  

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Hazards That Defeat the Aerial Game
« Reply #40 on: December 31, 2014, 01:49:06 PM »
Can someone please attempt to clarify for me what constitutes as the "ground game".

I see it talked about constantly but I cant help but think it means different things to different people.

Does a shot have to be played with a maximum loft?

Must the ball travel a certain percentage of its total distance on the turf (eg a 100 metre shot must roll at least 25 metres along the ground after 75 metres in the air)?

Can a ball land on a green and rolling 30 metres be considered a ground game shot or is it deemed aerial as it landed on the putting surface?

Must a ball reach a maximum height off the ground at its apex?



Grant:

Any shot where there is more than a modicum of thought given to what the ball will do once it hits the ground.

Hope that helps,

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sean_A

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Re: Hazards That Defeat the Aerial Game
« Reply #41 on: December 31, 2014, 01:55:19 PM »
If pros

Well, it didn't take long for pros to enter the conversation  ::)

Talking about golf from the handicap perspective is certainly a conversation that is not had often enough.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Dunfanaghy, Fraserburgh, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Russ Arbuthnot

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Re: Hazards That Defeat the Aerial Game
« Reply #42 on: December 31, 2014, 01:57:33 PM »
Seems to me the only sure-fire hazard that defeats the aerial game is a tunnel.

Ryan Coles

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Re: Hazards That Defeat the Aerial Game
« Reply #43 on: December 31, 2014, 02:02:37 PM »
I don't think you can defeat the pros. Someone will burn it up, they always do. When faced with firm greens that run off, they hit higher not lower.

Not sure why anyone would want to 'defeat' amateur golfers. We do a pretty good job of that ourselves.

Why the obsession with defeating golfers or making the game harder, it's plenty hard enough as it is and hasn't got easier in 30-40 years.

Russ Arbuthnot

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Re: Hazards That Defeat the Aerial Game
« Reply #44 on: December 31, 2014, 02:18:09 PM »
Guys, this is the 10th anniversary of the original Honourable Company of Reverse Jans Golfers event.  Does ANYBODY have a picture of the tunnel option shot that Kennedy hit?  Anyone?
David, it's in this post: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,47394.msg1059072.html#msg1059072


Tom_Doak

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Re: Hazards That Defeat the Aerial Game
« Reply #45 on: December 31, 2014, 02:33:00 PM »
Can someone please attempt to clarify for me what constitutes as the "ground game".

I see it talked about constantly but I cant help but think it means different things to different people.

Does a shot have to be played with a maximum loft?

Must the ball travel a certain percentage of its total distance on the turf (eg a 100 metre shot must roll at least 25 metres along the ground after 75 metres in the air)?

Can a ball land on a green and rolling 30 metres be considered a ground game shot or is it deemed aerial as it landed on the putting surface?

Must a ball reach a maximum height off the ground at its apex?

Grant, everybody probably has a different definition, but when I talk about the ground game I am talking about playing shots that are planned to roll up to the target, instead of being played to stop as quickly as possible.  That definition could apply to shots around the green as well as full approaches.

If someone is landing a full approach shot on the green, they are probably trying to stop their shot as quickly as they can, except in the rare case they are trying to play a shot that rolls up onto a higher tier.  But, there are many senior golfers for whom every shot is really "ground game" because they just don't hit the ball high enough or spin it enough to make it stop quickly.

Greg Murphy

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Re: Hazards That Defeat the Aerial Game
« Reply #46 on: December 31, 2014, 03:39:19 PM »
What about a course without hazards. Flat and level from tee to green. Nothing in betweeen. Would not defeat the aerial game but could neuter it.

Jud_T

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Re: Hazards That Defeat the Aerial Game
« Reply #47 on: December 31, 2014, 07:23:39 PM »
Indoor golf with 40' ceilings?  I love fall away greens.  They're so uncommon in this hemisphere that it's hard for most to get it through their head that the best miss is long.  If memory doesn't fail me there was a really nice one at Bay of Dreams.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2015, 11:27:19 AM by Jud_T »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Paul Gray

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Re: Hazards That Defeat the Aerial Game
« Reply #48 on: December 31, 2014, 08:23:46 PM »
My, my, my...

After reading this whole thread, I have just one thing to say:  how quickly we forget the flyer strip.

Everybody is focused on where the ball lands and contacts the turf.  That's fine.  But if you want to hurt the aerial game, it's about where the club contacts the ball.  Flyer strips, pinched fairways, minimal fairway turf acreage in the approach areas that long hitting aerialists drive to will do more to inhibit the aerial game than anything I can think of.  At least couple this with the green site ideas...

For the new guys asking "what the hell is a flyer strip?", its first rough cut grass strategically placed (preferably on an angle or like an "S" for a bit of randomness) where long hitters hit the ball (slightly longer than the rough cut at ANGC), so the next shot could produce a flyer.  Even from the middle of the fairway lines.  Not horribly penal on any given shot.  Just cumulatively penal over time.  I originally proposed this idea as a way to bifurcate a fairway without having to put a bunker or other hazard right in the middle, but it would also serve the purpose (if used correctly) of hindering the aerial game by causing players to lay back shot of the flyer strip zone, thereby putting less loft in their hands on the approach shot or at least forcing them to hit a perfect tee ball to catch actual fairway.  

It's not about the landing, guys; it's about the launch.  

???

Narrow fairways, minimal bump and run options???
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

David Whitmer

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Re: Hazards That Defeat the Aerial Game
« Reply #49 on: December 31, 2014, 09:15:29 PM »
I hit my irons very high, and from 80 or so yards or more, I don't think I have yet encountered a situation where I thought a low running shot was preferable to hitting it high and limiting the roll.

So for me, the ground game means around the green. Short grass, like at Ballyneal, promoted the ground game for me. Also, contours like, as Tom said, the 12th at TOC or even the valley of sin, where if I fly a pitch up to a higher level my ball will have too much momentum and roll well past. Contoured greens, and contours around the greens with short grass, force me to use the ground.

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