[Jason Way]

I loved Talking Stick North for the first time this past spring as well.  I couldn't believe how much trouble I was in off the tee with seemingly nothing going on.  I ended up seeing a lot of quail as I chased my ball over the place. 

Andy, this speaks to me to what makes TSN so fun and challenging (and I will happily be there again on Wednesday).  Beginning with #2, the positioning of hazards, including the out-of-bounds makes for disorienting playing angles.  I have taken to picking my lines based on the surrounding mountains, and I still never quite get comfortable, even though I have been out there 10+ times and am well aware of how much room there is.  For me, that is architecture at its best. 

[Rick Shefchik]

Rick,

What course were you talking about in your post from 2002?

Logger's Trail. There's actually some nice elevation on the back nine, but the front has tons of artificial mounding. I guess you get used to it, but it would be tough to overlook if all the holes looked like that.

[Doug Wright]

I don't get the love for TSN. I think it has one really good hole (#12), one pretty good hole (#2) and a bunch of long par fours that did not do anything for me. #2 would be better if the main hazard wasn't OB, which I don't care for as a primary hazard in most cases. It is by far my least favorite C&C course.

I could not disagree more.  That's one of the most brilliant choices a golf course architect has made in the past fifty years ... making the left of the course there out of bounds so you're not scuffling out of the desert like every other desert course [or worse yet, from a "buffer" bunker].  It really puts the fear of God in a player on what is otherwise a profoundly simple hole.  I wish I'd thought of it myself, but more power to them!

There are only a couple holes at TSN where OB comes into play--#2 and #12, which also are the most strategic holes on the course (and I think #2 is one of the best, most strategic holes I've played anywhere). Otherwise there's the potential for scuffling in the desert at TSN, and it's one of the reasons the last few holes aren't as good IMO.

[John Percival]

In Michigan, the Gailes is a Scottish replica course on zero grade. The sand base helps drainage. But the most interesting element is the movement throughout the fairways. Like at TOC, but not as severe, the undulations create unusual lies, even in the fairway.

Andy, agree w/ u on TSN. But for a different reason. I liked the use of OB (agree w/ TD that left OB is the way to go) and the hazard placements. However, was shocked at the simplicity of the green surrounds. Most simply fall away like an inverted saucer.
It's been about 10 years, so there may have been some work done since then, but the lack of shaping was a disappointment.

[Jim Tang]

How about the Ocean Course at Kiawah?  How flat was that site before Dye started construction?  How flat is it now?

[Joey Chase]

I don't get the love for TSN. I think it has one really good hole (#12), one pretty good hole (#2) and a bunch of long par fours that did not do anything for me. #2 would be better if the main hazard wasn't OB, which I don't care for as a primary hazard in most cases. It is by far my least favorite C&C course.

I could not disagree more.  That's one of the most brilliant choices a golf course architect has made in the past fifty years ... making the left of the course there out of bounds so you're not scuffling out of the desert like every other desert course [or worse yet, from a "buffer" bunker].  It really puts the fear of God in a player on what is otherwise a profoundly simple hole.  I wish I'd thought of it myself, but more power to them!

I agree that the second at TSN is great fun.  It is flat and has O.B. all the way down the left side of the hole.  I played it last week and remember very vividly the hole.  The fairway on that hole sets the tone for the round being extremely wide and immensely playable for weaker players yet the O.B. keeps the better player from playing too aggressively without a fair risk.  The green is well guarded on the left forcing the weaker player to tack back to the left before their approach.  It is of the right length that in a match play situation it could be bold to go for in two early in the round.  Yet the short left miss is no gimme to many hole locations on that green. 

[Joe Bausch]

I'm a little bias, yes, but the great Ben Hogan also said that Pine Tree is "the greatest flat course in the world."

I think this Hogan fellow was pretty sharp.  Grin.

http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/PineTree/

[jeffwarne]

This is a great thread.  I'd have to ask the same question, could Fazio or JN design a good course on flat land?  The flatest course i can think of is the first 15 holes at Toledo CC.  The last 3 cross the road and are fav among locals.  Are too many people Elevation whores?  I always try to give more credence to courses that lack movement, yet are well designed. 

The best Nicklaus course I've played is on flat land -Melrose on Daufuskie Island

[Steve Lapper]

Forgot to mention Bob O Link - another pretty good but not great course in Chicago- taking out a couple thousand trees would no doubt improve it.

And one otherwise famous arsehole member...who has thrown clubs at caddies heads and threatened other members!


Another vote for Pine Tree

[Andy Troeger]

To each their own regarding TSN and #2. I get that the hole is strategic and I think having the desert right next to the green on that side adds enough potential penalty to create interest without needing the OB stroke/distance penalty. I bet most of you wouldn't like the hole if it had a water hazard down the entire left side of the hole...

[Brian Finn]

Another very good course on flat land is the CC of Detroit. It does have an uphill /downhill at 9 & 10, but otherwise is dead flat. Great greens, beautiful & well-placed bunkers, and excellent conditions make for an interesting (and challenging) round.

[Jon Cavalier]

Kiawah is a good example. Almost entirely flat.

The best flat course I've played, and by a pretty wide margin, is Garden City.  The course feels and plays unlike any other flat or flattish course I've seen. And the bunkering is masterful and makes the most of flat ground.

[Charlie Gallagher]

    Those who have identified Kiawah's Ocean Course as a great flat site design are right on the money. Dye did a masterful job of creating all manner of interest and challenge. I happen to think it looks appealing given the surrounding land and sea, the course fits the site visually, at least to me.
   Calusa Pines in Naples Fl is a very fine design on a previously flat site. The amount of earth moved there was enormous but the resulting course presents great variety and challenge, especially around its greens.
   To me, the best flat site course I have encountered is Wolf Point. What Mike Nuzzo and Don Mahaffey created there is a complete marvel, visually gorgeous, in addition to being off the scale strategic and fun. Before they started moving earth the site was board flat with a creek meandering through it. The features and bunkering that were constructed and the routing bringing the creek into play present hole after hole with high visual appeal and strong shot values, in addition to presenting different options to the player. Every hole presents a short game recovery test if you happen to miss the green and you have to think your way around because hazard placement  requires the player to repeatedly make choices as to where the ball should be positioned again and again during the round. Just change the wind direction and you have a different golf course and challenge. It's pure genius, as far as I'm concerned.
   
   
   

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