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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +0/-1
Re: Bulldozer operators or Shapers which do you prefer?
« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2017, 05:51:17 PM »

Sitting on a sandpro and shoveling and raking to create micro contours was totally doing it for me and thatís when I really fell in love with what we do. Every time!



And ultimately that is the reason that some courses turn out so much better than others ... it's because you have four or six or even ten people on site who love what they do and are trying to make it as good as it can be.  The GPS-guided bulldozer does not do that for you ... it's entirely reliant on the guy who drew the plan, and I just don't think there has ever been anyone in history who drew a plan that well.  All the great courses have ultimately been created by talented people on site.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bulldozer operators or Shapers which do you prefer?
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2017, 06:07:24 PM »
Tom,
I totally agree, however, I still believe that these guys don't get enough credit (assuming any of them care in the first place).  Unless you are capable of doing the work yourself, ANY architect is at the mercy of the shapers otherwise the rework process will be endless and very expensive to finally "get it right"! 

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bulldozer operators or Shapers which do you prefer?
« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2017, 08:12:05 PM »
I just don't think there has ever been anyone in history who drew a plan that well.  All the great courses have ultimately been created by talented people on site.

Can anyone prove that wrong?? ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

JC Urbina

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bulldozer operators or Shapers which do you prefer? New
« Reply #28 on: December 05, 2017, 11:14:28 PM »
Jeff,

Great, we agree on the importance of the shaper. 

I would not argue the point of two people noodling over an idea, green, bunker placement, tee angle is always better than one.  I have tried to include the grow-in super or golf course superintendent as well.

Pete and his son Perry would allow shapers to "jazz it up" as Pete would say and then adjust if so warranted.  That's the way I learned and 37 years later I still function in that manner.

Mike,

Pete never handed me a drawing, never saw a sketch, nor a photo. Pete and Perry would send me to see other sights that they were working on and come back to shape or direct other shapers to carry out a certain style of design.  I use to go to Palm Springs on occasion to see what Pete was working on and come back with fresh ideas.

 
Little did I know the lessons Pete first instilled into me.



I always get compliments from Owners and Greens Comittees on the talented shapers who I get to work with.  I enjoy their company,  we have dinner together, we travel together, we play golf together, we see other golf courses together.  It's a way of life.

One of the best days I ever had with the shaping crew at Paramount was the day we all piled in a van to go see Uncle George at Sleepy Hollow.  George Waters,  Tony Russell,  Jeff (Smiley) Stein, Ryan Yonce and Brian Chapin, the super at Paramount.  The late George Bahto gave us a tour of the golf course along with a bite to eat at the clubhouse.  What a day!!!!!!

Those are the times I cherish, sorry not just bulldozer operators.




« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 12:53:38 AM by JC Urbina »

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bulldozer operators or Shapers which do you prefer?
« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2017, 01:31:50 PM »
I'm not going to comment on who should be called what but instead look from a different angle.


In times gone by folk could progress through a career starting off as an young apprentice and progressing through various stages such as journeyman, craftsman, master-craftsman, grand-master etc.
Somewhere in time a jump took place, where with additional education, someone could jump some of the early stages by learning via the classroom rather than by being hands-on. I've never been entirely comfortable with this approach.
So it's great to see that over the last few/couple of decades some highly educated folks have adopted a different approach by going back a few stages and actually working in the dirt in the cold and in the heat and in the mud and in the sand with their hands or on machines moving earth themselves. A combination of the classroom, the brain and the earth. And the outcome is terrific to behold.......and occasionally even to play! Well done.
atb

Jack Carney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bulldozer operators or Shapers which do you prefer?
« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2017, 09:32:02 PM »
Goldie!

Sandy Smith

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Re: Bulldozer operators or Shapers which do you prefer?
« Reply #31 on: December 06, 2017, 11:56:59 PM »
Jim
You know that there isnít one member at Marine Drive that would ever call either George Waters or Tony Russell a bulldozer operator. They are both superstars to us all.
Firm greens, firmer fairways.

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