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Kevin Lynch

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During the recent Ballyhack thread, some interest was raised in having a similar in-depth discussion / detailed analysis about Pete Dye Golf Club.  To that end, Jason Thurman & I decided to start something similar here to see if we can generate the same level of interest and discussion that arose from the BH thread.

Reviewing the GCA Forum history, there were several shorter threads dedicated to PDGC, but none seemed to move beyond 1 or 2 pages and didn't really seek to dig in at the individual hole level.  Also, most discussions dated back 4-6 years, so I'm hoping the passage of time has allowed more people to experience the course and add more insight.

Joe Bausch published a fine photo tour several years ago (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44923.0.html) and has generously given us permission to use those photos to guide this discussion.  Ron Montesano has allowed me to poach from his PhotoBucket account as well, and I am grateful (Ron's pics generally are the dew-covered morning shots).

I hope people will be interested and also add their insights along the way.  The success of the Ballyhack thread was due to the numerous contributors throughout, and any thoughts will be greatly appreciated.  
« Last Edit: December 24, 2014, 12:13:24 AM by Kevin Lynch »

Kevin Lynch

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Re: Pete Dye Golf Club - Hole-by-Hole / Photo Tour
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2014, 06:55:15 PM »
Introduction:

I thought I would kick this off using Ron Montesano's introduction from his now frozen photo tour.  Ron graciously put his photo tour on hold when he learned of the plans that were already in the works.





This was the first national golf club that I saw. Since my conversion to GCA, I was looking at different elements, but not to the degree that I do today. I haven't looked at these images in a while, so who knows what's in the hopper. Pete Dye GC certainly has an extended-build history. It is located in Bridgeport, West Virginia, very close to I-79 and quite accessible. The build began in 1978 and was finished in 1995. It didn't take that long to blast through the coal. There is a nice semi-local piece on the club here: http://www.huntingtonquarterly.com/articles/issue41/golf.html

The club was in the process of being sold when I was there around 2010. It now is part of the Pacific Links group of course (https://www.pacificlinks.com/petedye) with all the amenities that come with club membership. There are cabins on the course and a pretty cool clubhouse that we may or may not have had a beer in after the round.

All around the course are tributes to the areas mining history. Copper creek here, coal tunnel there, coal cars here, mining equipment there. Since it comes with an element of infrequency, it doesn't bother you in the manner it would if it were an every-hole, museum tour. As acknowledgements go, it's proper in my estimation.












And here is the routing, courtesy of Joe Bausch:




Scorecard:


« Last Edit: December 01, 2014, 07:34:49 PM by Kevin Lynch »

Kevin Lynch

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Re: Pete Dye Golf Club - Hole-by-Hole / Photo Tour
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2014, 06:58:25 PM »
#1.  A 390 yard par 4.












Jason Thurman

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Re: Pete Dye Golf Club - Hole-by-Hole Analysis / Photo Tour
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2014, 07:20:07 PM »
Thanks for organizing this Kevin. Pete Dye Golf Club was the best surprise that I stumbled upon this year. I'll reprise some comments I made last week.

The photos above do a nice job of capturing everything going on at the first hole. The Dye courses I've played reveal a tendency toward shortish par 4 openers that present options from the tee that heavily influence the difficulty of the ensuing approach. The approach shot difficulty is not so much a question of execution - most Dye openers that I've seen feature a short iron approach to a large-enough and receptive green. However, a player's VISUAL comfort is greatly influenced by how aggressively he plays off the tee on such holes, as Dye uses blindness and doglegs to ensure that the man who plays it safe from the tee will face an awkward approach shot while the man who makes the more aggressive play can find a more welcoming visual for his second.

The first at Pete Dye Golf Club is perhaps the best of these shortish par 4 opening holes from Pete Dye. A simple long-iron or hybrid played straight down the middle of the fairway off the tee will set up a short iron approach, but the green will be largely obscured by the hillock that the fairway wraps around near the 100 yard mark. Meanwhile, a bold drive over the bunkers off to the left leaves a half-wedge approach that, at least for me, feels more inviting while still presenting an appropriate challenge. A simple flip over the fronting bunkers will land softly on a green with fallaway edges that make it feel smaller than its true size.

The opening hole at Pete Dye Golf Club is not a long hole, nor a difficult one, but it's a good introduction that really captures the psychological essence of the course. It's a subtle design on an electric property, and that juxtaposition creates some really unusual challenges. PDGC has some brawny holes and plenty of length, but its central battle is one of nerves and ability to handle visually uncomfortable shots. The fact that you won't likely see your first shot land is an omen of what's to come.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Kevin Lynch

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Re: Pete Dye Golf Club - Hole-by-Hole Analysis / Photo Tour
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2014, 08:38:26 PM »
Jason -

Your first posts echos my overall impressions of PDGC, and so much of it is on display with the first hole.  When I first played PDGC, I knew it was a great course as I was playing it, but my appreciation really escalated upon reflection a few days later.

Like studying a painting, the first impression is of the image as a whole.  But when I look closer, I can see each brush stroke, and appreciate the thousands of subtle decisions that go into creating the overall image.  Similarly, after I absorbed the overall feel for PDGC, I looked closer and realized all the subtle elements that contributed to my experience.

The slight rise in the land which slightly obscures the view of the landing area, adding that challenging element of the unknown to a shot.  The mounding and undulation of landing areas that force me to think my way through the tee-shot routine, searching for the optimal risk/reward payoff.   The beautifully complex challenge of angled landing areas, graduating beyond the “stick figure” simplicity of “bang it down the middle.”  The strategic placement of bunkers.  The contouring of greens that rewards a well-thought approach, and eliminates “routine two-putt” from my vocabulary.


The first tee shot at PDGC is one of those instances which lean me towards Melvyn Morrow's "No Yardage Aid" camp.  In a way, I wish I hadn't been given the yardage to cut the dogleg and that I had to feel my way through the hole.  The visual hints provide the sensation that the fairway dives left, and the thrill of hitting a draw into the unknown (or challenging the left side) would be escalated without the numerical confirmation from a yardage book.  This hole simply resonated with me quite a bit.


Matt Kardash

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Re: Pete Dye Golf Club - Hole-by-Hole Analysis / Photo Tour
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2014, 10:06:47 PM »
I feel like this course is very underrated by many. I remember reading Tom Doak's review where he said he felt the course should be one of Dye's very best but by the time the course was done (due to a 15 year construction period) many of the innovations at this course were seen on other Dye courses. While that might have been a fair comment on opening, 20 years later no one cares or remembers which holes on this course are true originals and which were seen elsewhere first. Does anyone review a Raynor or a McKenzie course today and dock points because in 1926 Mackenzie implemented a concept or feature on a course that was seen first in 1924? It's a stupid argument today in 2014.

Dye's aesthetic totally works on this property. It's a perfect combination of a beautiful site and Dye's trademark style. Dye rarely if ever had a better canvas to work with.
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Mark Steffey

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Re: Pete Dye Golf Club - Hole-by-Hole Analysis / Photo Tour
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2014, 10:12:44 PM »
i've played here twice (with a 7 yr gap).  as already alluded to you have some options on the first tee if you don't know the distance.  both times we played tips & the first time was right after a web.com tour event.  we learned right off the bat that the course can play f a s t.  i aimed for the fairway and when we finally found my ball it was through the fairway in that rough short of the bunker.  the next time i tried more of a left line and caught the slope and fairway leaving a little flip (and i am NOT a long hitter).   a very fun starting hole to get your into the round.

Andy Troeger

Re: Pete Dye Golf Club - Hole-by-Hole Analysis / Photo Tour
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2014, 10:22:29 PM »
Not only is PDGC one of Pete Dye's best, I'd argue it might be his best overall course, although The Golf Club is also really good. I also agree it might be the best setting he had to work with.

The first hole is a good prelude for what lies ahead--strategic and a bit deceptive. It is not one of the harder holes on the course, but it cannot be taken lightly. It does not take long to realize who designed the course. And it gets you to #2!

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Pete Dye Golf Club - Hole-by-Hole Analysis / Photo Tour
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2014, 10:46:49 PM »
Tom Doak's

Was Tom with Pete Dye during the 1978-1993 period of building? Did Tom do any work at PDGC?
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Matt Kardash

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Re: Pete Dye Golf Club - Hole-by-Hole Analysis / Photo Tour
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2014, 07:24:09 AM »
Tom Doak's

Was Tom with Pete Dye during the 1978-1993 period of building? Did Tom do any work at PDGC?

I think I remember Tom saying he didn't do much at PDGC, but he did decide to build that stone wall that goes down the 14th hole. Hopefully Tom can confirm.
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Chris DeToro

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Re: Pete Dye Golf Club - Hole-by-Hole Analysis / Photo Tour
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2014, 07:53:05 AM »
Was much land moved for this course?  It's been probably 5-6 years since I've been to PDGC, but I really enjoyed it and it felt like it fit perfectly within the terrain and had some nice, natural features

Kevin Lynch

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Re: Pete Dye Golf Club - Hole-by-Hole Analysis / Photo Tour
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2014, 11:53:48 AM »
Not only is PDGC one of Pete Dye's best, I'd argue it might be his best overall course, although The Golf Club is also really good. I also agree it might be the best setting he had to work with.

The first hole is a good prelude for what lies ahead--strategic and a bit deceptive. It is not one of the harder holes on the course, but it cannot be taken lightly. It does not take long to realize who designed the course. And it gets you to #2!

Andy,

Without trying to be reductive, "strategic and a bit deceptive" captures the essence fairly well.  Pete Dye GC is my favorite Dye design that I've seen or played.  I was a big fan of his work at Kohler, but I enjoyed this a bit more.  Part of that may be that the West Virginia Mountains provide a canvas more in tune with me (I love elevation change), but upon more academic reflection, the strategies and design elements are better as well.

#1 is also reflective of the course in that it isn't overly long.  For a course that can be stretched to nearly 7,400 yards, there's still 5 par fours measuring less than 400 yards, even from the tips.  It definitely isn't a one dimensional test of length.


Kevin Lynch

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Re: Pete Dye Golf Club - Hole-by-Hole Analysis / Photo Tour
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2014, 12:09:56 PM »
Tom Doak's

Was Tom with Pete Dye during the 1978-1993 period of building? Did Tom do any work at PDGC?

I think I remember Tom saying he didn't do much at PDGC, but he did decide to build that stone wall that goes down the 14th hole. Hopefully Tom can confirm.


In case Tom is too busy to chime in, here's a few snippets of what he wrote on an earlier thread:

Yes, I had something to do with the wall. 

The original developer James D. LaRosa visited Pine Valley in the midst of building this course, and from that day forward he was somewhat obsessive about making this Pete's greatest course, and wondering where it would rank.  When Pete sent me in there, he told James D. that I was in charge of the GOLF Magazine course rankings, so Mr. LaRosa wanted to know exactly what I thought of every hole, and put me in the somewhat awkward position of critiquing the work to date!

All of the holes had been rough shaped, although the front nine was quite a bit further along than the back -- Charlie's comment is not surprising, because the front nine was built mostly in the 80's and the back nine in the 90's.  The only hole that I thought was really dull compared to the rest was #14, and Mr. LaRosa said he was thinking about building a stone wall through it, and assigned me to lay out the wall.  I've never seen a photo of the finished hole, so I don't know if it's anything like I flagged.  I am shocked to hear it was Charlie's absolute favorite!

Jason Thurman

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Re: Pete Dye Golf Club - Hole-by-Hole Analysis / Photo Tour - Hole #1 Up
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2014, 12:31:14 PM »
Going further on what Kevin and Andy mention, one of the things that most appeals to me about Dye's best work is the lack of a "right answer" in how to play each hole. The best Pete Dye holes are strategic at the individual player level, as there will be several options presented that all have various pros and cons depending on the strength of a golfer's game. Unlike many other architects, though, Dye doesn't build as much "universal strategy" into his best courses. There's no obvious play that will lead to a universally advantageous angle, but instead a handful of options that all feel just a little bit uncomfortable.

To give an example from the sister thread to this one, the fourth hole at Ballyhack is a good, strategic par 4 that provides a nice example of what I would call "universal strategy." Off the tee, the risk becomes higher as the player's line moves further right. In turn, the player able to hit the right side of the fairway off the tee is rewarded with a more advantageous angle of approach. This strategy is universal in the sense that, for virtually any player regardless of his particular skillset, the drive up the right is more challenging while in turn the approach from the right is easier. The carry over the hazard from the right side is shorter, and the angle into the green is more straightforward. The further left you get, the more the bunkers and the ravine come into play. This is true for everyone, and thus the hole is fairly straightforward: Get as close to the right side as you can off the tee, but don't screw up and go too far right.



Contrast that with the first hole at Pete Dye Golf Club which presents two main options from the tee: right and left. If you drive right at PDGC, you face a longer, visually obscured, and awkward approach to a green that actually is fairly receptive to shots from that angle. If you drive left, you get a shorter approach but still have to clear a fronting bunker and control your spin and yardage very precisely. The approach from the right is probably easier for some players thanks to its more forgiving angle, while the approach from the left might be easier for other players since it's shorter. There's no right answer and I suspect that members of the course likely prefer different approach angles depending on their own skillset. This isn't necessarily better or worse than the "universal strategy" of a hole like Ballyhack's 4th, but it does provide an interesting ambiguity that makes one of the central elements to Dye's best courses.

It's worth noting that playing down the right side is practically mandatory for a shorter hitter who won't be able to clear the valley of bunkers up the left and, in turn, the approach from that side allows the ball to run onto the green while the approach for a longer hitter who can get to the lower fairway on the left side will need to be lofted and spun with precision. That balance helps the course accommodate weaker hitters while still challenging stronger players.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Kevin Lynch

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Re: Pete Dye Golf Club - Hole-by-Hole Analysis / Photo Tour
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2014, 12:33:39 PM »
I feel like this course is very underrated by many. I remember reading Tom Doak's review where he said he felt the course should be one of Dye's very best but by the time the course was done (due to a 15 year construction period) many of the innovations at this course were seen on other Dye courses. While that might have been a fair comment on opening, 20 years later no one cares or remembers which holes on this course are true originals and which were seen elsewhere first. Does anyone review a Raynor or a McKenzie course today and dock points because in 1926 Mackenzie implemented a concept or feature on a course that was seen first in 1924? It's a stupid argument today in 2014.

Dye's aesthetic totally works on this property. It's a perfect combination of a beautiful site and Dye's trademark style. Dye rarely if ever had a better canvas to work with.

Matt,

By underrated, I'm assuming you mean by Golf Magazine?  It still holds #9 Modern on Golfweek, and #45 in Golf Digest, but I didn't see it anywhere for Golf Magazine.  That swing in variance is pretty astonishing to me, but I generally don't get too hung up on quantitiative rankings.  I'm much more interested in hearing the qualitative comments about a course, so I can determine if the factors that one person uses to judge a course mean as much to me.  

As Jason Thurman has mentioned to me, it may be one of the most under-discussed courses here, especially since I have heard generally high comments from the few people I know that have played it.  And when Tom said he thought it may be one of Pete's best, that has to mean something.  That qualitative discussion about the merits of the holes is what we're looking to generate here, particularly from people who feel strongly about the course, so I hope you'll keep adding as we move along.  

Regarding the "original" vs. " seen elsewhere" impact, I suppose that may have some effect, simply given Pete Dye's prolific portfolio.  I imagine some raters may have seen enough Pete Dye courses that certain of the great holes here may not have stuck out as being a "wow" moment or memorable, but obviously that didn't effect GolfWeek, so it's difficult to generalize.  I've always wondered how much raters consider the different needs / perspectives  of a "one-time visitor" vs. a "multiple round member."  I'll have some comments along these lines as we get to specific holes.  

Is this the type of course that will blow away a first time visitor, or will it require more reflection and plays to appreciate the angles and options?   I'm suspecting that as we go through the hole-by-hole analysis, I'll learn much more about the course that I didn't notice before.

  

Kevin Lynch

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Re: Pete Dye Golf Club - Hole-by-Hole Analysis / Photo Tour
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2014, 12:47:58 PM »
i've played here twice (with a 7 yr gap).  as already alluded to you have some options on the first tee if you don't know the distance.  both times we played tips & the first time was right after a web.com tour event.  we learned right off the bat that the course can play f a s t.  i aimed for the fairway and when we finally found my ball it was through the fairway in that rough short of the bunker.  the next time i tried more of a left line and caught the slope and fairway leaving a little flip (and i am NOT a long hitter).   a very fun starting hole to get your into the round.

I'd be curious to hear about the general maintenance of the course during the year.  Does the membership generally embrace firm & fast or is there a little bit of Augusta Syndrome influence?  My limited experience was a softer course, but it's hard to tell from sporadic visits, as there can always be extenuating circumstances / weather. 

The first tee shot provides all the things I love - visual uncertainty, vastly different options, diagonal landing zones, and enough contour that you need to consider the rollout, not just your initial line.  I'm just curious if the final item is lessened a bit when / if the course gets lush.  This will come into play even more when we get to discussion of some of the later holes.


Matt Kardash

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Re: Pete Dye Golf Club - Hole-by-Hole Analysis / Photo Tour - Hole #1 Up
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2014, 12:49:27 PM »
Kevin,

Actually, Tom Doak was critical of the course when it opened because he didn't feel like it was original for Dye. Maybe re-read what I wrote. Though he did give it a 7, so I am sure he still thinks it is very solid. Based on Tom's quote above I don't think he ever saw the completed course. Anyways, I don't want to speak for him.
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Greg Tallman

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Re: Pete Dye Golf Club - Hole-by-Hole Analysis / Photo Tour
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2014, 01:42:33 PM »
i've played here twice (with a 7 yr gap).  as already alluded to you have some options on the first tee if you don't know the distance.  both times we played tips & the first time was right after a web.com tour event.  we learned right off the bat that the course can play f a s t.  i aimed for the fairway and when we finally found my ball it was through the fairway in that rough short of the bunker.  the next time i tried more of a left line and caught the slope and fairway leaving a little flip (and i am NOT a long hitter).   a very fun starting hole to get your into the round.

I'd be curious to hear about the general maintenance of the course during the year.  Does the membership generally embrace firm & fast or is there a little bit of Augusta Syndrome influence?  My limited experience was a softer course, but it's hard to tell from sporadic visits, as there can always be extenuating circumstances / weather.  

The first tee shot provides all the things I love - visual uncertainty, vastly different options, diagonal landing zones, and enough contour that you need to consider the rollout, not just your initial line.  I'm just curious if the final item is lessened a bit when / if the course gets lush.  This will come into play even more when we get to discussion of some of the later holes.



Pretty tough spot to grow any type of turf and keep it firm and fast. Part of the reason the Hogan/Nike/Web/Nationwide Tour lights it up so much are the soft conditions in mid to late summer that are inevitable if one wants turf come fall.

Optimal conditions may come and go but come mid-July through early September you are going to have some softer conditions.

Tough gig there for a super.  
« Last Edit: December 02, 2014, 03:05:25 PM by Greg Tallman »

Jason Thurman

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Re: Pete Dye Golf Club - Hole-by-Hole Analysis / Photo Tour
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2014, 01:55:59 PM »
Regarding the "original" vs. " seen elsewhere" impact, I suppose that may have some effect, simply given Pete Dye's prolific portfolio.  I imagine some raters may have seen enough Pete Dye courses that certain of the great holes here may not have stuck out as being a "wow" moment or memorable, but obviously that didn't effect GolfWeek, so it's difficult to generalize.  I've always wondered how much raters consider the different needs / perspectives  of a "one-time visitor" vs. a "multiple round member."  I'll have some comments along these lines as we get to specific holes.  

This echoes a thought that I had as I played the 13th hole back in May. Holes like 4 and 13 are rather common in the Dye portfolio, and a well-traveled golfer who has seen a lot of Dye courses may eventually get tired of them. I'm reasonably well-traveled, and I don't even sniff the 50th percentile of well-traveled golfers who post on GCA. Raters see tons of courses and will no doubt be inclined to dock points from courses that they consider to repeating tired tropes.

But when I think about the average player at a Dye course, I don't think he seeks out courses the way we do. Most of the people who play Pete Dye Golf Club aren't going to also play dozens of other Dye courses in their lifetime. Even if they do, they likely won't object to seeing the Dye template par 3s any more than people at Rolling Stones concerts object to hearing "Tumbling Dice" when they play it some 100 nights a year, even if connoisseurs like us will tend to gravitate toward performers like Tom Waits who play one show every five years and feature a setlist comprised only of unheard deep cuts.

Pete Dye=The Rolling Stones of golf course architecture.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Carl Rogers

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Re: Pete Dye Golf Club - Hole-by-Hole Analysis / Photo Tour - Hole #1 Up
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2014, 03:00:56 PM »
Turf conditions?? relative firmness??
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Jason Topp

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Re: Pete Dye Golf Club - Hole-by-Hole Analysis / Photo Tour - Hole #1 Up
« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2014, 03:12:44 PM »
I have not played the course but that has never stopped me from commenting:

Without looking I guessed that the first hole would look like this.  It appears to be the same template as exists at TPC Sawgrass, PGA West and The Ocean Course.  The unique feature here is the hillside which appears to add interest.

Greg Tallman

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Re: Pete Dye Golf Club - Hole-by-Hole Analysis / Photo Tour - Hole #1 Up
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2014, 04:51:10 PM »
Now my comments on the first hole.  I think it plays the most straight forward with a fairway wood or long iron up the right side and then a short iron or wedge to the green.  You can hit a driver down the left side but I think that is generally a more difficult shot.  The approach from there is a little blind, uphill and the angle isn't as good.  The green has some movement but it is not overly severe.  

I find it interesting and maybe a good sign of the discussion to come that I prefer playing the hole down the right side, whereas everyone's comments before mine like the more aggressive line.

A good starting hole.  You certainly can make a bogey with a sloppy second shot or bad drive but two reasonable shots should get you off to a good start.  I have birdied it the last two times I played the course only to be humbled for the remainder of the round.

I'm not sure how anyone perceives an advantage in playing down the left side which leaves a less than full shot to a perched green. The best approach is from about 105-115 down the right center, leaving a full SW or whatever club one would need to a green in full view, unguarded in front and only slightly below the level from which you are playing.

On my last visit I got over the tee shot a bit and wound up in the middle of the transitional slope just behind where the 80 yard mark is indicated in the yardage guide rendering. Not the spot to be, doable but certainly made the approach more complicated than need be.

« Last Edit: December 02, 2014, 06:02:48 PM by Greg Tallman »

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Pete Dye Golf Club - Hole-by-Hole Analysis / Photo Tour - Hole #1 Up
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2014, 05:56:37 PM »

I find it interesting and maybe a good sign of the discussion to come that I prefer playing the hole down the right side, whereas everyone's comments before mine like the more aggressive line.

They like the aggressive line until they end up in the sand, from where they make double. I don't recall if I aimed right, faded it there or was so far back on the tee that right was all I could do, but I was in your position A.
Coming in August 2023
~Manakiki
~OSU Scarlet
~OSU Grey
~NCR South
~Springfield
~Columbus
~Lake Forest (OH)
~Sleepy Hollow (OH)

Kevin Lynch

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Re: Pete Dye Golf Club - Hole-by-Hole Analysis / Photo Tour - Hole #1 Up
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2014, 08:48:49 PM »
Kevin,

Actually, Tom Doak was critical of the course when it opened because he didn't feel like it was original for Dye. Maybe re-read what I wrote. Though he did give it a 7, so I am sure he still thinks it is very solid. Based on Tom's quote above I don't think he ever saw the completed course. Anyways, I don't want to speak for him.

Matt -

I didn't see the final Confidential Guide write-up - I was basing my comment on some things Tom wrote back in the 2008 thread.   When I read what you wrote, I wasn't sure if the time lag (re: originality) was Tom's commentary or yours.  The extended construction period for this course is unusual with such a highly regarded course /architect.

Anyway, like you, I'll refrain from attributing any more comments to him.

Kevin Lynch

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Re: Pete Dye Golf Club - Hole-by-Hole Analysis / Photo Tour
« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2014, 08:52:50 PM »

Pretty tough spot to grow any type of turf and keep it firm and fast. Part of the reason the Hogan/Nike/Web/Nationwide Tour lights it up so much are the soft conditions in mid to late summer that are inevitable if one wants turf come fall.

Optimal conditions may come and go but come mid-July through early September you are going to have some softer conditions.

Tough gig there for a super.  

I imagine you are correct.  My experience was in August, so the need to keep it watered with the peak summer heat was probably in full effect.

Greg Boring (GCAer and current Super at CC of Scranton) indicated he used to work there.  I reached out to him with a PM to let him know this thread was ongoing.  Perhaps he'll be able to shed some light on the challenges.

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