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Marc Haring

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I've pinched this question from Paul Gray on the best UK inland courses circa 1990 onwards.

I do think it is a valid question because the general consensus in the discussion was that there is a dearth of anything new that could be considered worthy of any architectural merit in the UK until very recently and yet, (courtesy of a huge list posted by Adrian Stiff) there have been many opportunities to come up with at least something of quality.


Mark Chaplin

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One simplistic reason is Britain needed cheap pay and play courses as there are plenty of member clubs where visitor golf isn't overly cheap. We didn't require courses with high architectural merit. Much of the good land away from the seaside is difficult to build on so many courses were built on poorly drained farmland. Those high end courses in the right areas have done well.
Cave Nil Vino

Adrian_Stiff

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It didn't in the eyes of 95%.

95% of golfers will love Cumberwell Park.

95% of golfers think the game involves hitting it straight off the tee, this whole idea that everywhere needs width is just not what better golf is actually about if you play the game at the highest levels.

Architecture goes in cycles. In the modern boom 1990-2000 the courses concentrated on conditioning so USGA greens became the standard at better courses. 7000 yards and water was seen as good and many people liked that then and still do. Contoured greens are not everyones idea of fun to some it actually puts them off wanting to play if they keep three putting, for every 1 that loves the Orange nine or the Stranahan there will be 2 or at least more that dislike it.

People certainly in the UK love trees, most UK clubs that were open in the mid sixties have become tree lined because that is what they want.

The minor head on here think architecture got bad or have no interest in modern courses but it does not mean they are right or wrong. It is all about opinions what people like but when you sit in the commercial world things get a bit more factual, what is good by definition is how much they charge and how full they are.

That is not to say I don't like the courses we drool about on here because I do.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2014, 02:50:57 PM by Adrian_Stiff »
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Marc Haring

  • Karma: +0/-0
It didn't in the eyes of 95%.

95% of golfers will love Cumberwell Park.

95% of golfers think the game involves hitting it straight off the tee, this whole idea that everywhere needs width is just not what better golf is actually about if you play the game at the highest levels.

Architecture goes in cycles. In the modern boom 1990-2000 the courses concentrated on conditioning so USGA greens became the standard at better courses. 7000 yards and water was seen as good and many people liked that then and still do. Contoured greens are not everyone idea of fun to some it actually puts them off wanting to play if they keep three putting, for every 1 that loves the Orange nine or the Stranahan there will be 2 or at least more that dislike it.

People certainly in the UK love trees, most UK clubs that were open in the mid sixties have become tree lined because that is what they want.

The minor head on here think architecture got bad or have no interest in modern course but it does not mean they are right or wrong. It is all about opinions what people like but when you sit in the commercial world things get a bit more factual what is good by definition by how much they charge and how full they are.

That is not to say I don't like the courses we drool about on here because I do.

I'm sure you're right Adrain but people loved the old style traditional courses as well. That's why the modern golf boom became viable because all the traditional clubs were full.

The question here is why did we follow the American/Spanish style of GCA. I'm not so sure it was consumer led, more forced on the consumer by the owners and architects. And now we are starting to see courses that do embrace the type of design so loved on this site so presumably it is still done with the customer in mind. No one wants to invest in a project that will not be popular.

Personally speaking everyone that plays the Orange at Cumberwell absolutely loves it and some consider it their favourite. They maybe don't enjoy the exposed nature of the course but on a summers evening they will walk passed the others to get on it and I can state that statistically it was more popular than the Blue course when I was working there. 

I know what you're saying though. Maybe the question should be who or what imposed this type of architecture upon us. Personally I think it is a combination of many factors such as colour TV, the drab 1970's UK depression, cheap package tours to Spain and Florida and Big Jack, the first superstar golfer who turned his hand to GCA and we all know what sort of courses he preferred.



Adrian_Stiff

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I know you ran a test with everyone's favourites to be totally honest when it was just three loops I found it quite hard to choose (which I think is a good thing). I ask people and it is pretty mixed on those three. The Orange (my favourite) is more diverse, I know of a section that say " I am not going over there you chip the ball and it rolls off to the side"....these people are more 15-20 handicappers. At the Players Club we do 6 times the traffic on the Codrington than what we do on the Stranahan for visitor play. Some members like both, some will not go out there.

We put a lot more contour into the greens on the Blue course which was a decision made by all of us @ Cumberwell on the basis that the red and yellow were fairly easy so it was to stiffen it up a bit, that and the water is why that nine is tougher and if I recall the folk that liked the blue lesser were the older members. All makes perfect sense really.

I think the Orange needs another nine to make it a course of its own, which was the very original 1988 plan. Which was for an inland links, perhaps if we had built that one first things would have been different though maybe not the commercial success. I don't know the round split between four of what the balance of rounds is now I must give Chris a ring.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Marc Haring

  • Karma: +0/-0
I was the stat man at the time so I don't think they keep the playing figures now.

As you know I love all the courses at Cumberwell and appreciate the built in subtlety to all. Actually I will happily play the Blue. I love the decisions I have to make on the first drive, 3rd tee shot (they need to cut down a willow that is now 30 feet high and means you have to get to the back end of the fairway so a very safe tee shot but tougher second option removed), 5th tee shot (how much do I cut off on the drive) 6th if the pin is forward (man you can use that tier to spin it back) 7th tee shot (tons of ways of playing it and looks gorgeous) 26th (nuff said) and the last (if they ever held a tour event that would be an all world par four).

Sean_A

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Adrian

You hit the nail on the head with Cumberwell Orange...diversity.  But I also think there is more architecture there which is more thought provoking.  Holes like #3 and 4...there is nothing like that on the Blue...the Blue is far more straight forward...I think a sure sign of its time.  I must have played 20 modern English courses which I couldn't architecturally differentiate from Cumberwell Blue...it does not stand out in any way.    The odd thing is, the Orange isn't some masterpiece, its good golf in sensible nick, which will throw up surprises, without beating your brains in.  I don't ask for anything more than for £20.  It is incredible how many British moderns fail to deliver on these basic premises.  Its even more surprising since there are plenty of role models about which if followed, would have resulted in a much better British golfing landscape.  When someone mentions to me about seeing a circa 1980-2000 British golf course I am immediately skeptical...because my experiences aren't positive.  I think a few reasons for my distaste of modern British golf revolve around inadequate archies building on inadequate land with inadequate attention paid to drainage and course maintenance.   Its harsh, but I think a fair judgement.  One only has to step on the 1st tee of these places to experience the disappointment.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Dunfanaghy, Fraserburgh, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Marc Haring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Yes; diversity Sean. I wonder, has there been any course constructed in that time frame that has not included an artificially constructed water hazard.....

Where did it all go so wrong with such a cultural heritage?

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Firstly, Adrian needs to understand that this isn't an attack on Cumberwell Park.  ;)

Right, people want what they think they are supposed to want, particularly when it's all they know. If narrow target golf was the only golf I knew, I'd play it because I'd still prefer it to tiddlywinks. That doesn't mean I wouldn't enjoy 'proper golf' more (and I really don't give two hoots how arrogant or condescending that sounds) if only I was introduced to it.

Golf has always been tied in with social aspirations for the vast majority of people and white van man (see how topical I am  ;)) was no different in the 90's. So enter a market where people with zero knowledge were literally queuing in cars overnight to get a tee time in the rain at 5am on a farm and you can knock out pretty much anything and, if it just looks a tiny bit like Augusta, just a tiny bit, you have yourself a goldmine. Taking the time to actually make a course good was just money wasted. No one was going to go all Golden Age and camp out on site for a week or two doing nothing but absorbing the landscape. Essentially, courses were crap because everyone and anyone was building them and they really didn't have to be any good. Former farms/bogs were able to turn a profit in a way that just wouldn't have been possible in a market which was over supplied.

And now we have an oversupplied market and less demand, which courses are closing? It's not the classics, is it now? Of course, quality won't be the only factor; as Adrian so correctly and consistently points out, many classic courses are run by people that would struggle with the proverbial piss up in a brewery whilst some dumps are smartly run or, more realistically, run less badly than the better courses, and manage to keep afloat DESPITE the shortcomings of the course. Jees, I used to work for one of Adrian's competitors and they fit that description perfectly. I can promise you that the average member is under no illusion about the quality of the courses available within the group but for every golfer that leaves and moves to a nicer club there's another unsuspecting victim being lined up on a cheap introductory deal. So success is essentially obtained by shining shit, plain and simple, whilst batting off as many criticisms as possible. There's always the promise of something new next year.......
« Last Edit: November 22, 2014, 05:07:22 PM by Paul Gray »
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Marc Haring

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Nice post Paul.

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: UK courses built circa 1990 and onwards, How Did Architecture Get So Bad?
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2014, 05:30:13 PM »
Paul - I know it's not an attack on Cumberwell Park. The reason I am using CP is Marc was the course manager there from about 94 till 2008??

I was at the interviews for the course managers job and I think MH was everyone's #1 choice, so I have seen Marc love CP in 1994 to join the site and 'get geeceeayed' he also told me about this site because he knew I loved Painswick. Marc was instrumental in the building of the 3rd nine the blue and the 4th nine the orange.

Marc wanted the Orange nine to be more like the courses we love on here and it was what I wanted too.

My point is just simply what we like on here is just similar opinions of what golf courses should look like and play like. It's not a factual thing we are right, the point I make is the very game is set up that fairways are narrowed for top golf because the game revolves around hitting it straight.

Golf clubs almost everywhere have embraced this and narrowed them and planted trees. It is not just the newer ones that are 'bad' in this regard.  Maybe 90% of UK golfers love water, they love water in front of greens. I talk to them everyday, societies and we have had them from Birkdale, Saunton they love the water. They love island greens, striped up fairways. I sit in the committee meetings and listen to their proposals which are the absolute opposite direction of what I want to do.

Most GCA things I really like even if they are a minor opinion. Width is really against the principle of today's game so I am less convinced width by chainsaw is vote winner. That is not to say that some trees on courses should be removed.

Which course did you work at that was a competitor btw?
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: UK courses built circa 1990 and onwards, How Did Architecture Get So Bad?
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2014, 05:40:13 PM »
The way this thread is going on and the golfing media portrays it, you'd think loads of courses are closing every month. They simple aren't or haven't. Very few courses actually close in the UK. More's the pity, probably.

I do think there is a lot of condescension about uk golfers.(bless them, they know not what I know etc) reading a few books and playing a few decent courses doesn't make anyone some sort of genius. Most people will play A) where they can afford, B) where is near where they live, C) where their mates play, D) where they feel comfortable.

If I was a farmer in the 80's I'd have done exactly the same thing. In answer to the original question: Because farmland yields very little in the way of natural, quality golf. To be fair, quite a lot of crap was built throughout the decades. Not just 20 -25 years ago.

You by and large get what you pay for. Sneering at average or below average golf is akin, to shaking your head at at a 3 bed semi or a ford focus. It's how golf/life is for most people. Sure you'll see the odd enthusiast driving a rusty old Jag, but to suggest that this is what everyone should be aspiring to or its somehow an intellectual issue, is just not the case.

Paul Gray

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Re: UK courses built circa 1990 and onwards, How Did Architecture Get So Bad?
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2014, 06:28:23 PM »
Adrian,

I'm led to believe, and my knowledge literally begins and ends with the Arble Tour, that your Orange course is pretty good and yet possibly not exactly revered by your members. I am not disputing what people currently like, simply why they like it. People, as I said before, like what they think they are supposed to like, and I'm afraid in that regard I do rather subscribe to the whole TV golf mentality thing. As I equally said before, golfers likes these things because, in part at least, they associate it with something quite classy, quite aspirational. It follows then that as soon as you begin to promote something different and promote it not simply as an alternative but as the classy alternative, people begin to change their perspectives. It's not easy because there's a whole big industry telling them the very opposite of what you and I might prefer and we remain a tiny minority. Watch five minutes of golf on Sky and the usual drivel will begin to spew out. Most people are conformists, plain and simple. Ewen et al aren't then about to start rocking the boat. I almost fell off my chair when I heard Gary Player, a man I don't usually have much time for, expressing the brilliance of wide open fairways in Australia recently. The average golfer just doesn't hear that usually so we can't be surprised that they profess to like what they like. As I said, I'd like that if I knew of nothing else. I'm not immune to advertising, nor is anyone else. And even knowing what I do, I'd still play bad golf if it was that or nothing at all. At the end of the day, my argument in all of this is not that the average golfer is having a bad time, simply that he or she could be having a better time. And I don't see why we, as people that apparently understand the options available, shouldn't be doing all we can to offer those options. That in itself isn't about forcing people to like what we like, it's simply about levelling the playing field so they can make an informed choice. And you can't make an informed choice if you're not sufficiently exposed to the choices.

I'm sure that lack of exposure to choices was as evident for you as it was for me when you had conversations with average golfers about Pinehurst. Again, if you've never been exposed to choice, why wouldn't you naturally assume that Pinehurst was all wrong. No one ever told you that was a choice so you just assume it must be wrong.

On a not completely unrelated note, and I've done this one before so apologies for those that have heard it, my time in a Pro Shop saw me work through a particularly dry summer. It was incredible just how many people came into the shop to tell me how they had just had the most enjoyable round of the year, only to finish with, Pavlov's Dogs style, "but it was a bit dry." It was literally an involuntary comment I heard time and time again. When I would explain, and I absolutely always would, that their enjoyment was a direct consequence of it being "a bit dry" you could see them trying to process the information and I thought "does not compute" might just pop out of a few mouth.

And since it's my cliche du jour, humble golf is usually good golf. Ergo, this has nothing to do with affordability or snobbery, not on my part anyway. Actually, the choices for ordinary golfers I referred to before are all about the very opposite of elitism. Those choices, in my little egalitarian world, should be choices for all. I've said it a million times but the worst courses, for me at least, are usually the middle bracket courses which are desperately trying to be something they're not, i.e. desperately trying to be Augusta and constraining themselves in the process.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2014, 06:57:11 PM by Paul Gray »
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: UK courses built circa 1990 and onwards, How Did Architecture Get So Bad?
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2014, 06:53:17 PM »
Paul - Couple of things which partly blow a hole in your post and is the reason why I am trying to get the point over that these golfers prefer USGA greens and water to the GCA way;

Cumberwell Park is 36 holes and The Players Club is 36 holes. Both Clubs have those options of one course with a typical USA type course moulded into a UK landscape 7000 yards with water and another course built far more the way we like courses on here.

My visitor play is six times the play on the 7000 yarder with water versus the short and quirky Stranahan. I can charge more than twice for the 7000 yarder. Perhaps the Stranahan is just too short (5500), perhaps more will like it time, perhaps the greens are too severe (they are nowhere near as severe as some new ones I have seen) a big complaint is the green speed we can never go to 9, perhaps there are a series of lessons to learn. I have often stated on here that we have Painswick 30-40 minutes from Bristol, you get some Americans on here that will fly across to play it but we have many many good golfers (less than 10 handicap and been playing 30 years) that have never played it, some have and think its absolute shit and some like it unreservedly and some like parts of it. I book golf packages with accomodation and golf, I always try and get them to play Painswick but they don't want to, I have only ever booked a few groups in. That is the dilema.

We are not arguing though its deliberating!
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: UK courses built circa 1990 and onwards, How Did Architecture Get So Bad?
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2014, 07:05:28 PM »
This is the type of thread that always bring the goob factor out in GCA...

For most of us that have been designing and building during the 1990's era this kind of stuff is the basic insult....but most of us acknowledge that most of the gca goob factor are no different than the Porsche fanatics spouting that Toyotas are no good.....it's the same basic thing...even to the point that most of the Prosche fanatics have never driven the Porshce at full speed on a real race track and drive a Toyota to work everyday...

But food for thought: if we don't build some simple courses of where people can learn the game then Houston has a real problem...China will prove that out... ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: UK courses built circa 1990 and onwards, How Did Architecture Get So Bad?
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2014, 07:16:38 PM »
Adrian,

I'm not sure what you think you've just written which is contrary to anything I've said. We aren't disagreeing about what currently sells. I've simply tried to explain why I think it sells.

I'm guessing that you're suggesting that the options you provide players with suggests they will always make those same decisions. My contention however is that they are making those decisions because of the overwhelming bias in the golfing media. Your effort to provide choice is admirable but it can hardly compete with everything else that people see, read and hear. You can't offer nine holes of more traditional golf and conclude that in itself is going to balance the scales, surely?

Not for the first time on this site you mention your dilemma and I get the impression that you feel almost guilty? You run a business, nothing wrong with that. Clearly you don't have the luxury of a Tom Simpson in that you're not independently wealthy and can't therefore purely pursue your art and disregard popularity. I'm not sure therefore that you have anything to feel guilty about. You try to pursued people and, who knows, if more people did the same you might be able to make a few changes to your, dare I say it, non GCA courses in years to come. The dilemma is profit vs a personal sense of credibility? It's no different to any music artiste questioning their own integrity when they sell a lot of units of a song they think is throw away pop. But I'm not sure you need question yourself, just keep chipping away and doing your bit for real options. And even then, obviously there are always going to be those that prefer their pop. But at least a lot of others will know that X Factor isn't the only show in town.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: UK courses built circa 1990 and onwards, How Did Architecture Get So Bad?
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2014, 07:21:41 PM »
This is the type of thread that always bring the goob factor out in GCA...

For most of us that have been designing and building during the 1990's era this kind of stuff is the basic insult....but most of us acknowledge that most of the gca goob factor are no different than the Porsche fanatics spouting that Toyotas are no good.....it's the same basic thing...even to the point that most of the Prosche fanatics have never driven the Porshce at full speed on a real race track and drive a Toyota to work everyday...

But food for thought: if we don't build some simple courses of where people can learn the game then Houston has a real problem...China will prove that out... ;D

I couldn't disagree more. And where we disagree, for me, is where this whole argument gets misunderstood. We are on the same side making the same argument but the whole thing is misinterpreted and seen as some elite vs average Joe argument. Last time I checked, a Porsche wasn't too humble. Capiche?
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: UK courses built circa 1990 and onwards, How Did Architecture Get So Bad?
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2014, 07:37:25 PM »
This is the type of thread that always bring the goob factor out in GCA...

For most of us that have been designing and building during the 1990's era this kind of stuff is the basic insult....but most of us acknowledge that most of the gca goob factor are no different than the Porsche fanatics spouting that Toyotas are no good.....it's the same basic thing...even to the point that most of the Prosche fanatics have never driven the Porshce at full speed on a real race track and drive a Toyota to work everyday...

But food for thought: if we don't build some simple courses of where people can learn the game then Houston has a real problem...China will prove that out... ;D

Mike

You don't get it.  I am looking for Toyotas.  Instead a ton of Gremlins were built. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Dunfanaghy, Fraserburgh, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: UK courses built circa 1990 and onwards, How Did Architecture Get So Bad?
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2014, 07:42:11 PM »
This is the type of thread that always bring the goob factor out in GCA...

For most of us that have been designing and building during the 1990's era this kind of stuff is the basic insult....but most of us acknowledge that most of the gca goob factor are no different than the Porsche fanatics spouting that Toyotas are no good.....it's the same basic thing...even to the point that most of the Prosche fanatics have never driven the Porshce at full speed on a real race track and drive a Toyota to work everyday...

But food for thought: if we don't build some simple courses of where people can learn the game then Houston has a real problem...China will prove that out... ;D

Mike

You don't get it.  I am looking for Toyotas.  Instead a ton of Gremlins were built. 

Ciao

What I said, only eloquent.  ;D
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: UK courses built circa 1990 and onwards, How Did Architecture Get So Bad?
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2014, 07:43:04 PM »
This is the type of thread that always bring the goob factor out in GCA...

For most of us that have been designing and building during the 1990's era this kind of stuff is the basic insult....but most of us acknowledge that most of the gca goob factor are no different than the Porsche fanatics spouting that Toyotas are no good.....it's the same basic thing...even to the point that most of the Prosche fanatics have never driven the Porshce at full speed on a real race track and drive a Toyota to work everyday...

But food for thought: if we don't build some simple courses of where people can learn the game then Houston has a real problem...China will prove that out... ;D



I couldn't disagree more. And where we disagree, for me, is where this whole argument gets misunderstood. We are on the same side making the same argument but the whole thing is misinterpreted and seen as some elite vs average Joe argument. Last time I checked, a Porsche wasn't too humble. Capiche?

Paul,
I'm saying the Porsche isn't humble at all...this site mainly speaks of maybe 250 courses in the world which and so often considers all others not worthy....It's nothing prsonal it's just the way the site works....the barriers to entry in being a GCA critic are almost zero ..... I'm not seeing any elite vs. average Joe at all...  I'm saying architecture did not get that bad...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: UK courses built circa 1990 and onwards, How Did Architecture Get So Bad?
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2014, 07:45:01 PM »
This is the type of thread that always bring the goob factor out in GCA...

For most of us that have been designing and building during the 1990's era this kind of stuff is the basic insult....but most of us acknowledge that most of the gca goob factor are no different than the Porsche fanatics spouting that Toyotas are no good.....it's the same basic thing...even to the point that most of the Prosche fanatics have never driven the Porshce at full speed on a real race track and drive a Toyota to work everyday...

But food for thought: if we don't build some simple courses of where people can learn the game then Houston has a real problem...China will prove that out... ;D



Mike

You don't get it.  I am looking for Toyotas.  Instead a ton of Gremlins were built. 

Ciao

They weren't Gremlins.
They were 15 passenger vans with housing in all the window seats :o :o ::) ::) ;D ;D
The problem is the solid Toyotas have to compete for business as the vans bring the who show down
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: UK courses built circa 1990 and onwards, How Did Architecture Get So Bad?
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2014, 07:46:48 PM »
This is the type of thread that always bring the goob factor out in GCA...

For most of us that have been designing and building during the 1990's era this kind of stuff is the basic insult....but most of us acknowledge that most of the gca goob factor are no different than the Porsche fanatics spouting that Toyotas are no good.....it's the same basic thing...even to the point that most of the Prosche fanatics have never driven the Porshce at full speed on a real race track and drive a Toyota to work everyday...

But food for thought: if we don't build some simple courses of where people can learn the game then Houston has a real problem...China will prove that out... ;D

Mike

You don't get it.  I am looking for Toyotas.  Instead a ton of Gremlins were built. 

Ciao

What I said, only eloquent.  ;D

Paul,

Ok with the Toyotas :)   but
How many "Gremlins" do you think were built? :) 
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: UK courses built circa 1990 and onwards, How Did Architecture Get So Bad?
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2014, 07:56:33 PM »
This is the type of thread that always bring the goob factor out in GCA...

For most of us that have been designing and building during the 1990's era this kind of stuff is the basic insult....but most of us acknowledge that most of the gca goob factor are no different than the Porsche fanatics spouting that Toyotas are no good.....it's the same basic thing...even to the point that most of the Prosche fanatics have never driven the Porshce at full speed on a real race track and drive a Toyota to work everyday...

But food for thought: if we don't build some simple courses of where people can learn the game then Houston has a real problem...China will prove that out... ;D

Mike

You don't get it.  I am looking for Toyotas.  Instead a ton of Gremlins were built.  

Ciao

What I said, only eloquent.  ;D

Paul,

Ok with the Toyotas :)   but
How many "Gremlins" do you think were built? :)  


In Britain, an awful lot.

But actually, just to reiterate what I was saying before, there's a real down to earth nine holer near me which was literally designed by the farmer that still owns the land to this day. An astute businessman, he built a course which he can actually afford to keep running on a small budget and I'll probably play nine holes there two or three times a year because, although far from good, it's really quite OK. One of its biggest advantages is that the farmer has never allowed a committee to form. Less is more.

I'm a little concerned now though because I have a horrible feeling that the son is going to try to 'improve it.' He's attending greenies' school and the wavy lines are beginning to emerge. Thus far the width hasn't gone but, well, we'll see.  
« Last Edit: November 22, 2014, 08:05:38 PM by Paul Gray »
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

BCowan

Re: UK courses built circa 1990 and onwards, How Did Architecture Get So Bad?
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2014, 08:03:19 PM »
Paul,

   Can you do a photo tour of the 9 holer?  I really like the last one you did.  Also we shouldn't hate on 7000+ courses, one shouldn't judge any arch by course yardage. 

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: UK courses built circa 1990 and onwards, How Did Architecture Get So Bad?
« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2014, 08:08:32 PM »
Ben,

You liked the South Wilts tour? Jees, the photos were terrible so thanks for your kind words.

The nine holer isn't much to write home about but I'll happily post a tour of it. Not sure when I'll next play it but I'll happily do it.

I've also been threatening a tour of Hayling but reckon Arble could do it far more justice. I'll just end up bitching about the three 'missing fairways.'  ;D

[edit -  'three and a bit missing fairways.'  ;D]
« Last Edit: November 22, 2014, 08:12:35 PM by Paul Gray »
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

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