[Matt MacIver]

#15 - options abound. Me and my slice "chose" the short cut and laid up on the fourteenth fairway, then opted to lay the sod over the downhill lie on our second so our ball ended up on the cart path at the bottom of the hill...having no decent drop I played it off the cart path to the front pin, easy two putt!

Wouldn't try it again, I played it more correctly (and scored worser) the second time. Great hole though, as mentioned before I think BH and Kinloch shine in the longer holes.

[Kevin Lynch]

The 14th hole is a connector hole. It is needed to set up the 15th hole and the double green with 13.

I don't like the hole. The tee shot is awkward in that you need to need to carry the creek to have a short iron into the green.

From my prior post, we're in agreement about the difficulty of the green, but I didn't understand your concerns about the tee shot.  

Here's the tee shot from the Ballyhack Red) and Ridge (Blue) tees to the 150 yard mark and the 100 yard mark:



The approx. respective yardages to clear the rough (not even the creek) and to reach the center are:

Ridge Tees:
150 Yards - 160 Yard to FW; 190 to Center
100 Yards - 195 Yard to FW; 230 to Center

Ballyhack Tees:
150 Yards - 170 Yard to FW; 205 to Center
100 Yards - 205 Yard to FW; 250 to Center

Big Lick Tees (not drawn):
150 Yards - 220 Yard to FW; 255 to Center
100 Yards - 255 Yard to FW; 295 to Center

In general, I'm all for holes that require you to take on more risk off the tee to have an easier second (as any of these types of diagonal fairways).  But in this case, even the most aggressive play doesn't require that much of a carry (even if you're playing the Big Lick tees).

When you're playing downhill, I don't understand why there's concern about carrying the creek on the tee shot.  I think the visuals of the creek make it a bigger factor in your mind than it should be. 


I would never have thought of this as a connector hole.  The tee shot is aesthetically pleasing while still leaving options in club selection, shot shape and aggressiveness of line.  The approach is dramatic and demanding (but could be softened a little with some green modifications). 

[JBovay]

 

BTW - did you see a ball mark to verify that's where your ball hit?  I was watching from the tee and had a bit of a side angle view of the green.  I thought your shot actually landed short of the pin and ran part way up the slope.  I even made the comment that it looked like the perfect shot to me, only to see you then hit from short of the green.  

There was a ball mark where I indicated, but I believe you had the better angle (and in fact, I would be surprised if I'd carried my shot that far). Regardless, Chris did drop a ball, softly, on that ball mark and it ended up within a foot of my ball.

JB

[Kevin Lynch]

Here's the 15th Hole Aerial:



Here is the description of the hole from the website:

Hole 15 - Chasm
With the prevailing wind usually against, the player can elect to hit a shorter drive to the “short porch” of the fairway in front of the daunting “chasm."  This will lead to a longer, but more direct, second over the hazard to a very generous landing area. A bolder drive down the fairway will leave a shorter, but more complicated, look at the landing area short of the green.


I like the drama of the hole, but I have never fully understood the trade-offs for the various options, and they didn't seem to align with the description above.

To me, it seems like the "short porch" is actually the shorter and safer route, despite what the above description said. From the Ballyhack tees, it is ~220 yards, significantly downhill, to find the heart of the short porch (red area).  I have hit irons off the tee and been in the 230-240 range regularly.   To get to a similar distance on the left (red area), it would take a 305 yard shot, and to a tighter area.  Even if you can get to the same distance (the two red areas), the short porch offers a superior angle.

As Tommy mentioned, there are plenty of awkward lies in the short porch area.  Despite being in range regularly, I have struggled with the 2nd shot (by trying to force a hybrid or 3 wood off the slight downhill lie).  This would make the short porch a riskier trade-off, but only if there were much better lies to the left fairway.  However, from my limited experience on the left side, there are still awkward lies there as well (generally downhill or sidehill given the overall slope of the hole).  But I'll admit that I haven't tried the left side much once I figured out how to find the short porch regularly.  It's possible there may be segments of the left fairway that are more conducive to a hybrid / 3 wood approach.

Now, if I were planning on playing this as a 3 shot hole, I would completely understand playing to the left fairway as an "equal" option.  It definitely makes the 2nd shot to the "upper" layup area much easier, especially if you want the downhill, visually unimpeded 3rd shot.  But if you don't mind hitting a shorter uphill 3rd shot, the short porch offers an viable 3 shot option as well.


I suppose there is the option of trying to carry the chasm off the tee to leave a very short 2nd shot (more feasible from the Ridge Tees), but the landing area beyond the chasm seems far too small and shallow to make that a reasonable risk (and this is coming from the guy who'll always go for #10 in 2 and #6 from the tee).  I tried it once for fun from the Ridge tees (after hitting an iron to the short porch), and bounded through the fairway beyond the chasm (into lost ball rough at the time).

Ultimately, if the short porch were smaller or more fraught with risk, I would understand the trade-offs of the hole.  But is seems like the risk/rewards push the short porch option disproportionately relative to other options. 

Of course, it may simply be a case where Lester built in a hole that flips expectations on their heads.  Since the short porch is visually obscured compared to the vast looking expanse left, players may never think that the best way to get home in 2 is with an iron vs a Driver. That in itself is cool and unusual - it just doesn't seem to align with the hole description on the website.


Wade / Tommy - in your membership playing experience, what % of players actually use the upper layup area?

[Tommy Williamsen]

Kevin, from my experience most players use the "front porch."  I use it less than I use to because I like the third shot in from the left side of the fairway.  I have made more birdies from 120 yards out than from twenty yards short of the green. I get a good look at the hole and distance control is easier from there.  So I will hit a tee shot left of the ravine and lay up from there.

[Ronald Montesano]

Keep in mind, too, that Kevin Lynch is the only chap I've encountered who hops on two feet, rubbing his hands gleefully, at the thought of a downhill-lie 3 metal. Short Porch seems made for him.

[Wade Whitehead]

Everyday play on the 15th varies wildly.

This year's club champion hits driver down the left, then lays up down the left, then hits a shortish 3rd (~125 yards) every time.

Other guys I know play to the short porch every time.

From the back tee, the short porch is blind.  It's a very challenging shot unless the player picks an exact line.  For more information, ask the fairway bunkers Lester built all the way across the second fairway (hint, hint).

From the Ridge tee (and, for some players, the Ballyhack tee) and under proper wind conditions, it's possible to reach the second fairway from the tee.  This play is incredibly risky but pays off when accomplished.  In the Member-Member last year, my partner and I had 125 into the green for our SECOND shot thanks to a prodigious drive that carried far enough.  I've seen this happen multiple times but that day stands out because our opponents (which whom we were tied at the time, I think) didn't even know it was an option.

I tend to make a decision on the tee (and not before).  This year I've picked NOT playing to the short porch more than half the time.

The short porch presents a crazy variety of lies (as it should) and the large tree does interfere with lots of shots from there.

It is almost a guarantee that every player in a given foursome will play the hole differently (even if they make similar decisions from the tee).

Even with the awesome visuals and incredible choices that the 15th offers, its beauty is really a matter of timing.  It's positioned perfectly within the round.  It can completely alter the momentum of a match.  Win the 15th, then smash a drive on the 16th, and anything can happen down the stretch.

WW

[Kevin Lynch]

Keep in mind, too, that Kevin Lynch is the only chap I've encountered who hops on two feet, rubbing his hands gleefully, at the thought of a downhill-lie 3 metal. Short Porch seems made for him.

Actually, that's my Kryptonite (not that I won't try it anyway).  You may be confusing my attempt at a near impossible shot with enthusiasm.  Once I'm inside 200 yards, downhill lies don't scare me at all, but with a hybrid or 3 metal, there's plenty of mental scar tissue.


But the short porch ties into Tommy's theme about playing within yourself.  I actually think this hole plays into it more than #14.  In a way, by giving you a shortcut, Lester's practically daring/ goading you to try the pull of the difficult lie shot to get home in two.

"Cmon -  you were able to hit an iron off the tee, you have the better angle, you're looking down at the huge green - what type of wimp doesn't take advantage of that?  So what if it's a little downhill lie?"

You even see the 80 yards of fairway short of the green (with no bunkers) and convince yourself.  "Well, even if I mishit it 30%, I'm still looking at an easy pitch on in regulation."  That's especially bad for me, because the blind uphill pitch doesn't bother me.  

The problem is, I'm so tempted that I forget the miss for a 3 wood from a downhill lie isn't 30% or10%.  It's usually a cold top, thin squirter with no carry or some major miss that ends up in the creek bed I forgot all about.  I'd be better served hitting iron to the short porch, followed by a 6-7 iron and pitch.  

I'm probably going to try the left side a little more next time I'm there - maybe I'll discover a quirky place that gives me the green-light lie I'm dreaming of.

[Wade Whitehead]

Kevin:

I'm still not happy that we missed playing together at this year's George Cup (though we wouldn't have played the back anyway).

Next year I'll caddy you into the green-light lie.  All of your dreams will come true!

WW

[Kevin Lynch]

Kevin:

I'm still not happy that we missed playing together at this year's George Cup (though we wouldn't have played the back anyway).

Next year I'll caddy you into the green-light lie.  All of your dreams will come true!

WW

I missed it as well this year, but you did get to see my good tee shot on #1 before getting called away.  On the bright side, I played so poorly the rest of the way (except #9) that you may have felt it necessary to annul my 2013 Title.

[Tommy Williamsen]

#16 par four—492, 461, 402, 376, 283

I am not certain why, but I birdie sixteen more than any other hole.  The tee ball does not fit my eye and the second shot calls for a left to right shot, not my baby hook.  Nonetheless, this hole can be had.  The fairway is miles wide but left of center gives the best angle to the green.  The first couple times you play this hole you may want to challenge the right side of the fairway.  Wrong.  The fairway moves left to right and a little fade down the right may find the rough or worse. I aim at the center and try to turn it  over a bit.  I think, however, a fade down the left side might be the preferred shot.  I generally play from the 402 tee, but will periodically play it at 461.  For me the second shot can be as long as 200 yards or as short at 150 yards.  There is a bail out area left and short of the green that will kick the ball toward the green.  This is one of those holes that must have designed itself, since it is a left to right kind of a cape, with a creek and ravine running the entire right side of the hole.  It is a great 16th hole.  Birdie to double bogey are possible.  It is a pretty straightforward hole with a green that is fairly benign but has some very subtle breaks.

From the 461 yard tee.


Up a tee. 


The hole makes you want to go right, but don’t.  In fact, the left bunkers get more play than one would think.


A shot from the bunker will test anyone’s mettle.


From this view the subtle left to right movement of the hole is visible.




The right side of the fairway is the wrong side of the fairway.


No matter how close, right is wrong.


Looking back gives a clue to the downhill nature of the tee shot and the left to right slope of the fairway.




From the fairway the 13th tee and cabins are in view.


This is a good angle for the second shot.  A little fade is the best shot any ball hit a little left will bound toward the green.




Looking back.

[Carl Rogers]

16 is a well conceived hole.  Tommy has described accurately, so I will add my own thoughts ...
The green side bunkering, like all at BH, is severe and should be avoided and a the same time missing left up into the hillside is a non-recoverable miss (like many at BH).
so, if you are unsure about your approach shot and many of the previous holes have you a bit roughed-up, short and left works.  to my mind the angle right,  narrowness and length of the green, gives the hole its bite.
because this hole gives you the lay-up short option, I see it as one of the fairer holes at BH (just like 15)

[Jason Thurman]

15 is fun, but does it really work? It seems to me like the golf equivalent of the Contra code - you either know the cheat code and beat the game, or you don't. Maybe the short porch is a tougher route for other players than it was for me - I'm a good long-iron player and don't mind downhill lies with a 3 wood either. I just can't imagine playing around the ravine to the far fairway.

16 might be the most elegant hole on the course. It sits so naturally and gracefully on the ground. It really fits nicely into the course's flow for me.

[Kevin Lynch]

16th Hole Aerial:



I added the black line to estimate the area with a visual impairment from the tree line (to the middle of the green). 


Simply a wonderful hole, with so much width to allow for varying angles and lines from the tee.  You have to account for the kick and roll out of your tee shot to select an optimal line.  The below picture illustrates some of the additional challenges.  On the same line, a ball hitting short of this mound will kick towards the hazard.  But if you can get some extra carry, you'll be propelled forward (and even a little away from the hazard). 

Once there, it's a wonderful challenge for the second shot.  I always feel so satisfied when I hit this green.

[Jim Sherma]

#15 - Based on my plays I have to agree with those that view the short porch as the only real play. there is significant width to hit into and from that side of the fairway it's a pretty straightforward shot to get up towards the green. the only question that repeated plays would present to me is whether or not short of the green is preferable to a full wedge from the left fairway? If you don't get up pretty cluse to the green you are left with a blind wedge off an uphill lie. Even if you were trying to lay up over to the left I still think a lay-up off the tee is called for since a driver would simply make the lay-up somewhat shorter. I really like the approach into the green here. The drop-off down into the middle of the double green is a great short grass hazard in my opinion and will really make me think about chasing back or even middle pins in the future.

#16 - This hole has had my number pretty much every time I have played it. Any bad and many not so bad misses on this hole will meet a penal end with little or no chance of recovery. there is plenty of width off of the tee and it really is a good and honest hole that lays very nicely on the ground. In many ways it is not really that Ballyhack-ish and the hole on the back that I would vote as most likely to be seen on a different course. I don't really see any reason to challenge the right side of the fairway off the tee. Upon reflection I am pretty convinced that the best miss around the green is the front/right bunker. The hillside left and long is really a bad place to wind up as I have found out a few times.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Often when I reach 16 I have a good score.  But, I know that I still have 16 and 18 to play.  Both can be had but both are also card wreckers.  On 16 I will tend to hit my tee shot a little left of where I might like it to guard against missing it right.  But at least it is in the fairway with a good angle, even if it is further away than I would want to be.  I will also guard against going right on my second shot as well, and can hit it left.  I have decided that the second shot needs to be a fade or a little low runner that kicks off the hill short and left of the green.  The worst thing you can do at Ballyhack is protect a score.  But when you get to 16 you are definitely thinking about score.  Protect too much and bogey or double are in your future. This hole is perfectly placed in the round.

[Lester George]

Tommy you dog.  16 is the hole on the golf course that I birdie THE LEAST.  For some reason, it just gets in my head.  I may have birded it once!  I have had as little as 9 iron in and I just can not get close to the hole.  Most often I miss the green.  Imagine.

Jason,  I guarantee if you ever step onto the tee on 15 with a 25 or 30 mile wind into your face and overcook that utility club, driver or long iron into the far left rough, you will have an amazing appreciation for the left fairway layup then.  I have seen the best of the best hook it (yes even aiming for the porch) into that rough and hit all the club they wanted to get to the end of the left fairway.  Its almost like we thought about that in the design phase. 

Lester

[Tommy Williamsen]

Tommy you dog.  16 is the hole on the golf course that I birdie THE LEAST.  For some reason, it just gets in my head.  I may have birded it once!  I have had as little as 9 iron in and I just can not get close to the hole.  Most often I miss the green.  Imagine.
.

Lester

Lester, I probably won't birdie 16 again since I challenged its manhood. 

[Wade Whitehead]

Ballyhack's elasticity is more evident on 16 than almost anywhere else.

I have hit 3 wood-wedge downwind to a front pin.  I've hit driver-three wood into the wind to a back pin.

The green is one of the deepest on the golf course and slopes away from the player at the back.

The front right greenside bunkers might seem to be the miss but they aren't.  They're much deeper than they would appear.

The giant waves that consume the ground underneath the right side of the fairway are beautiful in the afternoon sun.  They've got to be the result of a couple thousand years of runoff toward the creek.

Par wins 16 almost every time.

WW

[Tommy Williamsen]

#17 par 3—152, 126, 126, 113, 98

Ballyhack has an exceptional collection of par threes.   Number three is the most stout with the combination of length and wild green.  Number seven is just a straight forward par three of medium length.  Number thirteen can play at various lengths and angles and is a favorite of many.  Number seventeen is both brilliantly conceived and beautiful.  It sits on a hillside over a deep ravine that seems to run through the entire property and forms a beautiful background from the clubhouse.  


Like thirteen, seventeen has two different angles.  
The left tee is a little higher and affords the best look.  It is my favorite tee.  It is 152 yards.


The right tee has various lengths, including  another at 156 yards.




The green is divided into three sections.  The back right is the most difficult to get a ate ball close.  It falls away from the player.  You have to either fly the shot high or bounce it up.  I seem to end up short of the rise, which leaves a difficult two putt.


This is one of the easier pin placements.  If, however, the tee shot ends up left of the pin there is a tricky downhill-sidehill putt.


Looking back.  16 fairway on the left, 12 in the middle, and 18 fairway to the right.



I love this hole as a seventeenth.  It is sandwiched between two stout par fours and gives the player a legitimate shot a birdie.  I remember a story about Henry Longhurst’s first visit to Killarney Golf and Fishing Club. He is purported to have commented, “What a lovely place to die.”  That sums up my feeling and affection for number 17.

[Ronald Montesano]

I love the way Mike strange encircles par three holes with tees and I love the way mr. Keiser did it at the dunes club. Could more tees be built for this hole, to take advantage of even more angles?

[Frank Giordano]

I tried to represent my appreciation for this splendid hole in my painting, which can be found on this site's "Best of Golf" section.  Have a look.

[Andy Hughes]

Am I really the only one who finds the Short Porch kinda tough to hit, especially when there is some breeze (and is there ever NOT a breeze or more?), and then the fun really begins from the junk just off the fairway left.

[Chris DeNigris]

Am I really the only one who finds the Short Porch kinda tough to hit, especially when there is some breeze (and is there ever NOT a breeze or more?), and then the fun really begins from the junk just off the fairway left.

Andy-fess up- You just like mashing driver across the ravine on 15.

I find it a bit more of an awkward shot than a tough one.  If it was purely about the "smart play" it would probably be smartest to develop a comfort zone for that iron/hybrid stroke and play from the porch in most cases. For me though, I stubbornly hate to hit anything but driver on a par 5- so I almost always go left.  There are actually a couple of extremely sweet places for drives to settle on that part of the fairway (one is near a drainage grate in a small flat area), which reward the player with almost as easy (if not easier, due to the lie) chance to get home in two as does the porch.  Especially if you like to draw your 3 metal- which the tree can sometimes mess with if playing from the porch.

Another note about the left side and the layup if one isn't in perfect go for it position- there is a lot more fairway towards the lay-up zone than meets the eye.  That bit of semi-blindness makes the layup a little more nervy in an attempt to get it as close as possible without dropping off into the abyss.

Just another great BH par 5- 3 of the most unique and fun par 5s on one course that I can think of.

[Carl Rogers]

Hole 17:
To get back to some other themes about BH .... walking.  the walk from 16 green up and around to 17 tee is a formidable hike.  the walk from 17 tee to 17 green is also.  If I were walking and carrying, at this point in the round, the walk from 16 green to 17 green would take quite a lot out of me.  and my golf as well as my experience would probably suffer.

Tommy has consistently made accurate descriptions of this hole and all the rest.  The right back quadrant is the Sunday pin.  Not a hard green to hit, but like all greens at BH, careful approach putting is mandatory. Very striking hole.  11 green is over the hill off the right side of this green.

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