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Frank Kim

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Short Par 4s
« on: February 28, 2016, 09:08:39 AM »
i played Menlo Country Club yesterday.  It has two great short par 4s.  They were well designed, fun, with strategic options.   If we like these stragegic short par 4s so much,  why don't architects put more than 1or 2 per course.  Is 3 or 4 or more too much and why?

Greg Tallman

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Re: Short Par 4s
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2016, 01:34:12 PM »
Probably because most clients want to reach a magic number, say 7000 or 7200 or today 7700. Silly really but I suspect the desire to créate a course that could "challenge the best in the world" is the supposed obstacle.

MClutterbuck

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Re: Short Par 4s
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2016, 02:58:17 PM »
I understand why architects or clients do not want 4 short par 4s. The real question to me is why architects dont strive to have 3-4 longish par 4s that can also be played as a short par 4 from a short tee (or even middle of the fairway).


I try to set up a course with some short par 4 options and there is just 1 hole, maybe 2 at most, that have interesesting strategic options from a short tee.




Tom_Doak

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Re: Short Par 4s
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2016, 10:49:07 PM »
I understand why architects or clients do not want 4 short par 4s. 



Explain it to me, then.


Courses with 3 or 4 great short par 4's include The Old Course at St. Andrews, Cypress Point, Merion, National Golf Links, Crystal Downs, Pacific Dunes, Royal Melbourne (West or Composite), and Barnbougle Dunes.

Jon Wiggett

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Re: Short Par 4s
« Reply #4 on: February 29, 2016, 06:17:34 AM »
I understand why architects or clients do not want 4 short par 4s. 



Explain it to me, then.


Courses with 3 or 4 great short par 4's include The Old Course at St. Andrews, Cypress Point, Merion, National Golf Links, Crystal Downs, Pacific Dunes, Royal Melbourne (West or Composite), and Barnbougle Dunes.

Do you mean you are the only non ODG still doing this Tom? ??? ::) ;D

Niall C

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Re: Short Par 4s
« Reply #5 on: February 29, 2016, 08:46:24 AM »
I understand why architects or clients do not want 4 short par 4s. 



Explain it to me, then.


Courses with 3 or 4 great short par 4's include The Old Course at St. Andrews, Cypress Point, Merion, National Golf Links, Crystal Downs, Pacific Dunes, Royal Melbourne (West or Composite), and Barnbougle Dunes.


Tom


Of the older courses you list, how many of them had short par 4's originally ? In other words how many of the holes you refer to were designed to be short ?


Niall

MClutterbuck

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Re: Short Par 4s
« Reply #6 on: February 29, 2016, 12:25:46 PM »
I understand why architects or clients do not want 4 short par 4s. 



Explain it to me, then.


Courses with 3 or 4 great short par 4's include The Old Course at St. Andrews, Cypress Point, Merion, National Golf Links, Crystal Downs, Pacific Dunes, Royal Melbourne (West or Composite), and Barnbougle Dunes.


Tom, I guess I was thinking of really short, drivable par 4s, of which Cypress has 1 maybe?


And I was thinking of much shorter par 4s than you refer in these great courses because the Menlo comment refers to 300 yarders, as you point out there are plenty of courses with several par 4s in the 350-360 yard range.


And my comments is that I would enjoy architects designing par 4s that have tees or options to set tees at 300-310 yards for pros and 250-260 for amateurs.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Short Par 4s
« Reply #7 on: February 29, 2016, 04:09:06 PM »
I don't know why the conversation about short par-4's [generally, not just here] has been turned into a conversation about drivable par-4's.  Drivable par-4's were rare in the Golden Age, though not on the early links once the Haskell ball came into vogue.  But all of the Golden Age architects spoke of the value of short par-4's of the drive-and-pitch variety.


I'm not familiar with Menlo Park and there was nothing in the original post about the length of those holes, sorry for the confusion.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Short Par 4s
« Reply #8 on: February 29, 2016, 04:10:39 PM »
Do you mean you are the only non ODG still doing this Tom? ??? ::) ;D


Jon:


I was just trying to think of some top-50 courses that have lots of great short par-4's and it happened to include a couple of mine.  ;) 

Josh Tarble

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Re: Short Par 4s
« Reply #9 on: February 29, 2016, 05:01:19 PM »
I personally think short par 4s in the 350 yard range are some of the most interesting.  Those seem to be the type that truly offer the most options for the most players.

It seems that sub-330 yarders typically result in only one option - hit driver as close to the green as possible. I like those every once in a while, but I like holes that make me question pulling driver the best.

Joe Zucker

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Re: Short Par 4s
« Reply #10 on: February 29, 2016, 05:18:44 PM »
I personally think short par 4s in the 350 yard range are some of the most interesting.  Those seem to be the type that truly offer the most options for the most players.

It seems that sub-330 yarders typically result in only one option - hit driver as close to the green as possible. I like those every once in a while, but I like holes that make me question pulling driver the best.


I agree with this. I love a hole that makes a player really think about where they want to hit a wedge shot from.  Far too often a wedge can be hit from anywhere because it's a short shot with a lot of loft.  But when there is a green that offers a significant advantage to a shot played from a certain spot, even when it's a 60 yard wedge shot, it is a lot of fun.  These holes are often incredibly tempting in nature.  The best ones entice a player take on a shot they think they can hit and sometimes it results in bogey or worse from less than 100 yards.  These type of holes always make me want to play them again ASAP.

Matthew Rose

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Re: Short Par 4s
« Reply #11 on: February 29, 2016, 06:15:56 PM »
I'm fond of them and a really good one is playable for everyone without necessarily being an automatic 3 for the scratch.


One of my favorite holes to watch on TV every year is #3 at Augusta, which until 15 years ago or so was never shown on television.
American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Short Par 4s
« Reply #12 on: February 29, 2016, 07:58:38 PM »
I personally think short par 4s in the 350 yard range are some of the most interesting.  Those seem to be the type that truly offer the most options for the most players.


The best thing about that length is that you can design the hole to have a wide range of different angles of approach.  On a shorter hole, everyone just tries to get to the green.  On a 450-yard hole, the fairway would have to be really wide to make the angle much different for a 200-yard approach ... and few can afforfd to make the hole play longer by taking a different tack anyway.

Sean_A

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Re: Short Par 4s
« Reply #13 on: February 29, 2016, 08:03:27 PM »
But there are actually a ton of 350ish yard par 4s in GB&I...far too many, but some are excellent.  IMO, not nearly enough 250-300 yard holes. 


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Dunfanaghy, Fraserburgh, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: Short Par 4s
« Reply #14 on: February 29, 2016, 08:43:44 PM »
But there are actually a ton of 350ish yard par 4s in GB&I...far too many, but some are excellent.  IMO, not nearly enough 250-300 yard holes. 


Ciao

+1

350 yards isn't a particularly short par 4 in the UK. Most old courses have many of them - one reason why the average club course measures barely 6000 yards.

Sub 300 yard holes can present very different challenges for different levels of golfer, and that is their appeal. What fun for an 18 handicapper to get a birdie with a well executed 3 wood and wedge while his flat - bellied opponent comes off with a double after an ill  - judged attempt to drive the green goes amiss.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2016, 08:46:27 PM by Duncan Cheslett »

Peter Pallotta

Re: Short Par 4s
« Reply #15 on: February 29, 2016, 10:38:40 PM »
Duncan, Sean - not to put too fine a point on this, but:

It seems to me that whenever proponents discuss sub-300 yard holes they nearly always imagine and invoke two mythical golfing characters: the methodical and self-possessed 18 handicapper, and the flat-bellied village idiot.

These two rare and magnificent creatures -- the unicorns of the golfing world, as it were -- are deemed to possess truly remarkable qualities: the 18 handicapper, supremely confident and rigidly disciplined, not only foregoes the chance to try to drive a green and set the stage for an almost unheard-of eagle, but also possesses the skill-set to hit two nearly perfect shots in a row before making an attempt at his birdie putt. 

Meanwhile, and at precisely the same time apparently, the flat-bellied low handicapper has a spell cast upon him by a jilted ex-lover and becomes the village idiot: he forgets all that he's learned from the thousands of rounds of golf he's played and all the good scores he has shot and decides that the only way he can stomp this pesky opponent into the dust is by driving the green on the off-chance at an eagle, and he proceeds to try exactly that despite the glaringly obvious fact (to anyone not an idiot) that he is bringing an ugly double bogey into play.         

Of course, in this lovely and gentle fairy-tale rife with magical creatures and brilliantly strategic sub-300 yard golf holes and stolidly English middle-class moralities, our humble 18 handicapper (a happily married turtle) sinks his birdie putt while the all-too-foolish flat belly (that two-timing scoundrel of a hare) stumbles blindly into a double bogey.

Ah, yes - if life were only thus. But alas, when I became a man I put away childish things; and I can't honestly remember ever having sighted these two mythical creatures, nor ever having participated in such lovely fairy tale myself.   
  :)
Peter
« Last Edit: February 29, 2016, 11:38:05 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: Short Par 4s
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2016, 01:58:54 AM »
Peter,

Seldom have I seen an argument stretched further in a bid for creative flourish.

You seem to be saying that risk/reward short par 4s are worthless because good players never take the risk and fail, and that weaker players never take the safer option and pull it off gloriously.

Of course both things happen., particularly in tight match - play scenarios towards the end of a round when the weaker player may have shots on the remaining holes.

If a hole in such a situation is TOO risky for the low man and too hard for the conservative strategy,  then the hole is flawed.

Of course the norm is for the better player to score better more often, as it is on all holes. But please don't denigrate the occasional opportunity for the tortoise to outwit the hare.

Have you no soul?  ;)
« Last Edit: March 01, 2016, 02:02:41 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Thomas Dai

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Re: Short Par 4s
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2016, 03:00:42 AM »
Super writing Peter but I'm with Sean and Duncan on this one. The main hassle of such holes for me is waiting on the tee for Mr Hare to have a go at the green.
Atb

Sean_A

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Re: Short Par 4s
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2016, 03:30:40 AM »
Pietro


Generally speaking, the yardage between 225 and 325 is vastly under-exploited and under-explored.  Instead, we are going well into upper 500s and even 600s which to me is exactly where archies should not take courses unless championship golf is truly a factor...which is practically never. I know you he men like to think you are getting your money's worth, but that money's worth is ever increasing with increasing yardage.  Its time to look backwards and see what can be made of the fertile ground between 225 and 325.  I would also say there is fertile ground between 440 and 470.  But of course this kind of thinking will require golfers and archies to see the game through handicap eyes rather than professional eyes.  The vast majority of courses should be under 6500 yards (and that would be a high yardage) if the range of possibilities was properly exploited.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Dunfanaghy, Fraserburgh, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Martin Lehmann

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Re: Short Par 4s
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2016, 03:33:53 AM »
A well known architect (I don't know his name, but I guess many of you do) said that a hole should be designed backwards. So in reverse order, with the green complex as point of departure. The rest of the hole (fairway and tees) follows like a comet's tail. For me this image, with the green being the star, is particularly true for short par 4s. At our course (a Fred Hawtree design from the 1950s in the southern part of The Netherlands) we have six par 4s in the range between 300 and 360 yards. As part of a large scale renovation, most of the greens are being redesigned and rebuild. A lot of emphasis is put on creating interesting greens on these short par 4s. It's not going to give the course championship status (it is much to short and was never developed with that goal in mind), but it is turning the course into a fun track for the less skilled players and an interesting test for better golfers.   

Mark Pearce

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Re: Short Par 4s
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2016, 04:08:36 AM »
Elie has 4 between 250 and 325 and 5 between 250 and 340.  I think you'll like it, Sean.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Frank Kim

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Re: Short Par 4s
« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2016, 10:12:16 AM »
The 6th hole at Menlo CC (Kyle Phillips redesign of a Tom Nicholl original design) is between 307 to 264 yards.  We played it at 264 yards.  I suppose there are players who can drive the green (not our group).  The real strategy was placing the ball on the proper side of the fairway to give the best angle for the approach shot.  You also have to choose to lay back for a full short iron or wedge or hit the drive further to have a 30-50 yard pitch shot.
The 13 hole is between 325 to 287 yards.  We played it at 287 yards.  The strategy is similar to the 6 hole.

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