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Mark Bourgeois

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sad conclusion to the Scott-Taylor matter
« Reply #100 on: October 30, 2014, 11:42:53 AM »
disgusting incident that took place on this chat room in regards to the fake golf course rankings article. When the scam artists were brought to light

Do you consider the Ordnance Survey to be disgusting scam artists for including copyright traps on their maps and catching the Automobile Association red-handed?

I would if the Ordnance Survey had created purposely inaccurate maps for that purpose.
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sad conclusion to the Scott-Taylor matter
« Reply #101 on: October 30, 2014, 11:49:28 AM »
There are many conclusion to be reached here but, for me, one stands out: this chat room is not a bastion of integrity (except for Joseph Bausch, Adam Lawrence and a scant few others) and, therefore, it is not a place for serious discussions of history, facts and truths. It is a place to bloviate, to deceive, it inflate one's ego.

AP

This is well beyond the pale. One could comfortably steer clear of this latest mess or take a wait and see attitude without losing any sense of integrity.  Fact is, most people couldn't care at all...even among wing nuts simply because this is small beer.  A few people did care enough to investigate.  So what?  They cared about this situation and other did not.  It has nothing to do with across the board integrity...but I will give you that some people bloviate...though I don't know why.  Since you deem it fit to imply that I have no integrity, I will start by asking you.

Ciao
« Last Edit: October 30, 2014, 12:10:02 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Dunfanaghy, Fraserburgh, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sad conclusion to the Scott-Taylor matter
« Reply #102 on: October 30, 2014, 12:00:45 PM »
There are many conclusion to be reached here but, for me, one stands out: this chat room is not a bastion of integrity (except for Joseph Bausch, Adam Lawrence and a scant few others) and, therefore, it is not a place for serious discussions of history, facts and truths. It is a place to bloviate, to deceive, it inflate one's ego.

AP

This is well beyond the pale. One could comfortably steer clear of this latest mess or take a wait and see attitude without losing any sense of integrity.  Fact is, most people couldn't care at all...even among wing nuts simply because this is small beer.  A few people did care enough to investigate.  So what?  They cared about this situation and other did not.  It has nothing to do with across the board integrity...but I will give you that some people bloviate...though I on't know why.  Since you deem it fit to imply that I have no integrity, I will start by asking you.

Ciao
Well said, Sean. 

Anthony, whilst you contemplate Sean's question you may want to explain to me why you feel free to question my integrity.  For an author your use of the English language is astonishingly slack.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sad conclusion to the Scott-Taylor matter
« Reply #103 on: October 30, 2014, 12:20:15 PM »
disgusting incident that took place on this chat room in regards to the fake golf course rankings article. When the scam artists were brought to light

Do you consider the Ordnance Survey to be disgusting scam artists for including copyright traps on their maps and catching the Automobile Association red-handed?

I would if the Ordnance Survey had created purposely inaccurate maps for that purpose.

Mark

It is my understanding that all map makers include small errors in their productions spsecifically to entrap violators of their copyright.  This was told to me by a friend who was a professional map maker.

Rich
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sad conclusion to the Scott-Taylor matter
« Reply #104 on: October 30, 2014, 12:21:16 PM »
I don't see this as a sad ending at all. Ian, aided knowingly or unwittingly by Phil and Neil, tried to use golf club atlas to stir publicity about some fake memorabilia. Because we have a number of intelligent people who participate in these discussions, the fraud was exposed. I see it as positive.
Raynor was a hack

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sad conclusion to the Scott-Taylor matter
« Reply #105 on: October 30, 2014, 12:25:36 PM »

There are many conclusion to be reached here but, for me, one stands out: this chat room is not a bastion of integrity (except for Joseph Bausch, Adam Lawrence and a scant few others) and, therefore, it is not a place for serious discussions of history, facts and truths. It is a place to bloviate, to deceive, it inflate one's ego. In other words, it is a barroom.

Anthony



Wow.

Bogey


« Last Edit: October 30, 2014, 12:27:24 PM by Michael H »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re: Sad conclusion to the Scott-Taylor matter
« Reply #106 on: October 30, 2014, 12:27:29 PM »
Ally:

I don't have an answer to your question and I'm not sure who would. I do make some of my living that way, but it is an insignificant portion of my measly income in most years.

Best,

Anthony


RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sad conclusion to the Scott-Taylor matter
« Reply #107 on: October 30, 2014, 12:29:37 PM »
It seems to me that the 'business of history' is big business if managed and manipulated as theater, drama, entertainment or infotainment.  I for one have always enjoyed the work of Ken Burns, from "the Civil War", to perhaps my favorite, "Corps ofDiscovery" and of course other infotainment efforts with the popularization of elevating the heroic aspects of the American experience in WWII, with producers from Speilberg to Brokaw and the like.   All of those producers used Stephen Ambrose extensively as an Historical Expert and commentator through ubiquitous vignettes of interviews with S.A., where S.A. would give dramatic oral explanation of historical events, and with great panache I might say.

But as the pursuit of monetizing and cashing in on the infotainment aspects of such historical productions seems to naturally lead, embellishments were made, and Mr Ambrose came under heavy scrutiny for 'plagiarism' and 'inaccuracies'.  For a thumbnail overview one can scan the still under controversy material being continually revised on Wikipedia:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_E._Ambrose  Particularly what seems obvious as embellishment of his relationship with IKE, becomes very problematic about the credibility of S.A.  This in my view is a pity in the sense that it detracts from the otherwise popularization of a new enthusiasm for History, so rich and yet so controversial at every turn.  The showmanship aspects of S.A. are on full display in his many appearances in various media, and yet so vulnerable to the glare of 'authentication'.

RAN IS NO KEN BURNS!   Ran runs a website many of us are in various ways attached to for entertainment, sharing information, and good fellowship connection  We have some heady or interesting writing contributions from some pretty smart  people from time to time.  But I really don't think any of those 'fairly smart people' really look at this site with the view that it is a forum for serious academic 'historical' credentialed source material.  Do any of you really think that?  And, it is fairly obvious that a bit of promotional activities take place from time to time on Ran's GCA.com.  Books are mentioned and interest is promoted in some commercial material from time to time.  And as always, if you choose to buy a book or some other aspect of membership or patronize some golf course based on discussion here, Caveat Emptor.  I for one do buy and patronize because I like the people or accept the merits of what is on offer, based on good will and enjoyment of the person or source of the offer.  So, isn't it best to 'take it for what it is worth' in these cases where you choose to support something?  I feel contributions to Ran's web site are well worth it.  So I do because I want to.   I see no aspect of fraud, just entertainment and connection to nice people and interesting situations.

PHIL YOUNG IS CERTAINLY A LIGHT YEAR FROM STEPHEN AMBROSE as credible or capable of presenting any truly academia rated or respected historical information.  S.A. does have a large body of work, much of it leaning more towards a sort of commercial historical effort to sell books and his reputation as a great storyteller.  He branded himself with great success.  Phil may have a schtik as a infotainment writer of something as mundane as his look backs at Tillie, and whatever other stuff he has compiled in a few published compilations.  But, let's face it.  He seems to have no historian credentials of any widespread academic recognition.  Does he even have an undergrad degree in any era or subject of "History"?

You pays yer money and takes yer chances...



No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sad conclusion to the Scott-Taylor matter
« Reply #108 on: October 30, 2014, 12:37:57 PM »
It is my understanding that all map makers include small errors in their productions spsecifically to entrap violators of their copyright.  This was told to me by a friend who was a professional map maker.

I have been told exactly the same thing -- and have found some of those errors over the years.

(It's much less well known, amongst the general public, that Rihc employs the same strategy -- "spsecifically" to entrap plagiarists.)

Dan Kelly (tm)
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sad conclusion to the Scott-Taylor matter
« Reply #109 on: October 30, 2014, 12:39:16 PM »
Most folks I know quite playing "dogpile on so-and-so" decades ago.  In hindsight we know it was nothing but bullying.  In this saga a few guys screwed up and a few other guys were smart enough not to trust them.  No need to get out the broad brushes.

Bogey
« Last Edit: October 30, 2014, 12:52:05 PM by Michael H »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Mark Bourgeois

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sad conclusion to the Scott-Taylor matter
« Reply #110 on: October 30, 2014, 01:09:07 PM »
disgusting incident that took place on this chat room in regards to the fake golf course rankings article. When the scam artists were brought to light

Do you consider the Ordnance Survey to be disgusting scam artists for including copyright traps on their maps and catching the Automobile Association red-handed?

I would if the Ordnance Survey had created purposely inaccurate maps for that purpose.

Mark

It is my understanding that all map makers include small errors in their productions spsecifically to entrap violators of their copyright.  This was told to me by a friend who was a professional map maker.

Rich

Rich

I meant material errors rather than small tyops and should have posted as such. The Foulpointe fabrication was on another level entirely from an uppercase letter being used in the middle of a place name.

Mark
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sad conclusion to the Scott-Taylor matter
« Reply #111 on: October 30, 2014, 01:13:14 PM »
The Foulpointe fabrication was on another level entirely

What then was the disgusting scam? What did Tom MacWood gain from doing this?
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sad conclusion to the Scott-Taylor matter
« Reply #112 on: October 30, 2014, 01:32:57 PM »
disgusting incident that took place on this chat room in regards to the fake golf course rankings article. When the scam artists were brought to light

Do you consider the Ordnance Survey to be disgusting scam artists for including copyright traps on their maps and catching the Automobile Association red-handed?

I would if the Ordnance Survey had created purposely inaccurate maps for that purpose.

Mark

It is my understanding that all map makers include small errors in their productions spsecifically to entrap violators of their copyright.  This was told to me by a friend who was a professional map maker.

Rich

Rich

I meant material errors rather than small tyops and should have posted as such. The Foulpointe fabrication was on another level entirely from an uppercase letter being used in the middle of a place name.

Mark

Mark

It isn't just tyops (tm).  As I remember my conversation, the deception included putting in streets or adding churches that did not exist, etc.  Kinda like "The Foulepointe Flummox" (as it is now known amongst the cognoscenti), come to think about it.....

Rhic
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Mark Bourgeois

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sad conclusion to the Scott-Taylor matter
« Reply #113 on: October 30, 2014, 01:41:13 PM »
Rich, the analogue is not fake churches on a map, it is an entirely fabricated map.

Michael, you genuinely think it's acceptable to present material lies as facts? Really?
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sad conclusion to the Scott-Taylor matter
« Reply #114 on: October 30, 2014, 01:49:05 PM »
Rich, the analogue is not fake churches on a map, it is an entirely fabricated map.

Michael, you genuinely think it's acceptable to present material lies as facts? Really?

"Entirely?"  Really?  As complete as the Foulepointe Fake Flummox Fiasco?  I doubt it, but I'm willing to be better informed.
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sad conclusion to the Scott-Taylor matter
« Reply #115 on: October 30, 2014, 01:54:43 PM »
As one who has been supportive of Phil and Ian i am obviously disappointed and saddened to learn that the authentication report was not genuine and that Ian had written it. Naturally I am embarrassed by this and extend my apologies to all here for my part in this.

My involvement was originally in looking at a set of 18 hole plans apparently drawn by Mackenzie for Riviera. They certainly appeared genuine to me based upon the numerous Mac plans I have seen over the years, and I said so.

Obviously I am very disappointed, upset and saddened that Ian fabricated the report, which naturally casts a grim shadow over all this material, the Riviera drawings included. What material is genuine and what material is not is now mixed up in a murky soup. Sadly it's all tainted now.

While I find it difficult to believe that these Mac plans plus the two from Augusta that I have seen, are forged, and while that possibility has always been there, it is perhaps far more prominent now. Anyway, there will be more fall-out on this to come no doubt.

For my part, I have argued a case that I believed in, in good faith. For being wrong, well, mea culpa.



Neil,
You, Phil and Ian Scott Taylor explicitly instructed those you shared the purported Alister MacKenzie Riviera drawings with to keep the sketches from being shown to me. Your lengthy authentication report was a key component of the attempt to sell these drawings and yet, knowing my background as author of books on Riviera and George Thomas, you conspired in the not-so-good-faith effort to not ask if I had thoughts on the authenticity of the drawings, or to provide some insight into who did renovation work at Riviera prior to the 1929 Los Angeles Open (it was not Alister MacKenzie, as you now hopefully know and something confirmed as not possible by your own MacKenzie timeline).

So do not suggest here this was a good faith effort on your part or Phil Young's. There was a concerted effort to deceive and conceal by both you and Young. This is not behavior consistent with how historians who truly love this art share information amongst themselves.

Sorry Geoff, but that just sounds like petulance on your part just because you weren't consulted on your pet subject. I've no idea who Neil (and Phil) shared information with but as I understand it they were instructed by IST as to who they could share info with. If they didn't share info with you because of IST's instructions then I suggest your beef is with him rather than Neil.

Niall

Mark Bourgeois

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sad conclusion to the Scott-Taylor matter
« Reply #116 on: October 30, 2014, 01:55:02 PM »
Rich

Are you taking the piss? The entire list was a fabrication, as was the article in which it supposedly appeared.
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sad conclusion to the Scott-Taylor matter
« Reply #117 on: October 30, 2014, 02:00:01 PM »
John and Kelly:

Thank you for reminding everyone about the disgusting incident that took place on this chat room in regards to the fake golf course rankings article. When the scam artists were brought to light they immediately defended themselves by placing blame on those who reproduced the work as if somehow trusting the integrity of the chat room was the real problem.

We now have a second incident of the site attempting to perpetuate a fraud, which means there is a pattern of deceit here.

From the very beginning there were problems with this tale of sketches, meetings and a rewriting of history. First, in my mind, a former newspaper reporter who investigated corruption and fraud, was why bring this “discovery” to light here on a chat room with marginal reputation for honesty? Had there been unequivocal proof that these documents were genuine, the likes of Golf Digest, the Guardian or the Smithsonian magazine would have been interested in revealing them to the golf world. Those involved knew this is not a place to hold the research up to legitimate and fair criticism, but it is a place where deception is embraced.

The fact is the people who run this chat room had an active and supportive role in perpetuating this swindle. Had it been pulled off and some of the fakes sold as genuine before the con came to life then certain individuals may have found themselves in court defending their actions. Claiming ignorance and/or stupidity is not the best defense for such actions. Claiming ignorance, though, is apparently a good way to get people to keep supporting you financially. Some people will always willingly drink the Kook-Aid. Dr. Oz is still in business even after duping hundreds of thousands with a tale of bogus weight loss pills.

Adam Lawrence and some others should be lauded for not only displaying a healthy skepticism and revealing the fraud, but also doing without the mean-spiritedness that is a hallmark of this chat room. He gave the dishonorable a chance to remove themselves from the scheme while still maintaining a bit of their honor. They chose not to. He is a gentleman for doing so.

There are many conclusion to be reached here but, for me, one stands out: this chat room is not a bastion of integrity (except for Joseph Bausch, Adam Lawrence and a scant few others) and, therefore, it is not a place for serious discussions of history, facts and truths. It is a place to bloviate, to deceive, it inflate one's ego. In other words, it is a barroom.

Those who wish to push aside this incident as if it is nothing but an unfortunate small error, fail to realize that this wretched episode has the potential to harm those of us who make a living striving to research and write golf course history while maintaining the highest standards of research that we can. When a supposedly bona fide historian is shown to be anything but, I fear others in the field will suffer.

I’m genuinely sorry that this incident happened and that many of you have seen the curtain pulled back on a hero or two, but I am not at all surprised.

Anthony


Anthony

I think you could do with turning down the pomposity level by a notch or two. ;)

Niall

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sad conclusion to the Scott-Taylor matter
« Reply #118 on: October 30, 2014, 02:03:49 PM »
How many people actually "make a living" from researching golf course history?

Honest question.

In the five years or so that I spent most of my non-leisure time researching and writing books, articles, and posting on GCA.com, I made probably more than 95%+ of GCA writers/researchers, but that was enough make a living if and only if one defined a "living" in Third World terms.  "Beer money" was probably a more descriptive term in regard to my "income," but because I can consume large quantities of beer, I never managed to reach the beer=income Nirvana sought by writers of any ilk.
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sad conclusion to the Scott-Taylor matter
« Reply #119 on: October 30, 2014, 02:17:24 PM »
It is my understanding that all map makers include small errors in their productions spsecifically to entrap violators of their copyright.  This was told to me by a friend who was a professional map maker.
I finally understand why Apple Maps is so crappy.

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sad conclusion to the Scott-Taylor matter
« Reply #120 on: October 30, 2014, 02:30:28 PM »
It is my understanding that all map makers include small errors in their productions spsecifically to entrap violators of their copyright.  This was told to me by a friend who was a professional map maker.
I finally understand why Apple Maps is so crappy.

If you think that's bad, try using their GPS on Long Island:)
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sad conclusion to the Scott-Taylor matter
« Reply #121 on: October 30, 2014, 02:42:17 PM »
Michael, you genuinely think it's acceptable to present material lies as facts? Really?

When you are being burgled, it's fine to say that you can't remember the combination to the safe.
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sad conclusion to the Scott-Taylor matter
« Reply #122 on: October 30, 2014, 02:58:24 PM »
Rich

Are you taking the piss? The entire list was a fabrication, as was the article in which it supposedly appeared.

I thought you were referring to the I S-T map/tablecloth/whatever from the Scores Hotel that is the subject of this thread rather than FFFF.  Of course FFFF was entirely bogus.
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sad conclusion to the Scott-Taylor matter
« Reply #123 on: October 30, 2014, 03:05:32 PM »
There are many conclusion to be reached here but, for me, one stands out: this chat room is not a bastion of integrity (except for Joseph Bausch, Adam Lawrence and a scant few others) and, therefore, it is not a place for serious discussions of history, facts and truths. It is a place to bloviate, to deceive, it inflate one's ego.

AP

This is well beyond the pale. One could comfortably steer clear of this latest mess or take a wait and see attitude without losing any sense of integrity.  Fact is, most people couldn't care at all...even among wing nuts simply because this is small beer.  A few people did care enough to investigate.  So what?  They cared about this situation and other did not.  It has nothing to do with across the board integrity...but I will give you that some people bloviate...though I don't know why.  Since you deem it fit to imply that I have no integrity, I will start by asking you.

Ciao

+1
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sad conclusion to the Scott-Taylor matter
« Reply #124 on: October 30, 2014, 03:22:18 PM »
Can't get the chant out of my head:

''There's only one David Scott-Taylor.........''

Probably just me.

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