[Mark Fedeli]

Archie, were the trees right of #13 fairway always an impediment or did they grow up and out over time? Tough to tell from old aerials how much of a factor they were.

[JESII]

#4.  485 par 4

Uphill , really long , and not as interesting from the new back tee. More difficult but not as fun perhaps ?

Don't like the new bunkers on top of hill right side , beautifully done  but take away strategy .These very bunkers were taken out of play for most by the new tee., making them even less favored .   Gotta just blast driver here and follow with rescue or even three wood on second . Only super long hitters get it down bottom of hill from back tee. , and not real,often .  Beautifully subtle green lots of sideways and front to back movement  nine times out of ten long is better , particularly when pin is back . You used to  resist micromanagimg  second shot and getting a super tough putt over ridge . Now the istance has reduced strategy IMO .  Still  a fine hole but more brutish than stylish . Four a good score here .

Disagree with every word of this...other than long is better than short.

For expert players, the old tee was just too short.

The approach from 170 is really cool and interesting with the green running away...the approach from 225 standing on the top of that hill is one of the greatest approach shots in all of golf and in an entirely different stratosphere than that from 160 or 170. 225 on that hole plays like 200 so no crying about it being too long. The slight left-to-right angle of the tee shot returned the need to hit AND control the driver...which is good on a handful of holes per round. The only change I would suggest is to mow the grass all around behind the green at fairway height back to the scrub.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Archie, were the trees right of #13 fairway always an impediment or did they grow up and out over time? Tough to tell from old aerials how much of a factor they were.

Mark,

I would say that they were NEVER a problem until I&B created the distance "issue"

It was a rare golfer or rare day when drives would be impeded or stymied by that stand of trees.

Early on, drives were far back of that stand, typically on an upslope.

Sliced tee shots would face a second shot that could easily get up above those trees.
Hooked tee shots usually found disaster left.

Most golfers, before metal woods, carried 4 and 5-woods, so getting the ball elevated above shorter trees wasn't an excessive challenge.

That's a wide fairway and golfers could also hit big cuts/slices with their second shot, if they had the nerve to aim them down the left side.

[Tim_Weiman]

Pat,

It is my understanding that #13 was once considered one of the truly great par 4s, but technology eventually altered that impression. If I remember correctly, there were one or two players who didn't speak so highly of the hole prior to the Walker Cup.

What is your recollection? When did the hole reach its peak or lose its edge so to speak?

I am asking from Archie's perspective of the expert player.

[Patrick_Mucci]

#4.  485 par 4

Uphill , really long , and not as interesting from the new back tee. More difficult but not as fun perhaps ?

Don't like the new bunkers on top of hill right side , beautifully done  but take away strategy .These very bunkers were taken out of play for most by the new tee., making them even less favored .   Gotta just blast driver here and follow with rescue or even three wood on second . Only super long hitters get it down bottom of hill from back tee. , and not real,often .  Beautifully subtle green lots of sideways and front to back movement  nine times out of ten long is better , particularly when pin is back . You used to  resist micromanagimg  second shot and getting a super tough putt over ridge . Now the istance has reduced strategy IMO .  Still  a fine hole but more brutish than stylish . Four a good score here .

Disagree with every word of this...other than long is better than short.

For expert players, the old tee was just too short.

Not if you consider the consequences of running through the fairway or being left or right of the fairway, long

The approach from 170 is really cool and interesting with the green running away...

An approach from 170 yards means that you've hit your drive to within 10-15 yards of the end of the fairway.
That's about a 290 yard drive from the back of the front tee.

the approach from 225 standing on the top of that hill is one of the greatest approach shots in all of golf

Yes, there's something special about that shot, but, modern I&B have muted it somewhat.

and in an entirely different stratosphere than that from 160 or 170. 225 on that hole plays like 200 so no crying about it being too long.

Given the dramatically uphill nature of the tee shot, and the dogleg nature of the DZ, I think the hole is too long for 99.9 % of the amateurs playing golf, but, the downhill, running nature of the second shot, semi-compensates for the difficulty of the tee shot.

The slight left-to-right angle of the tee shot returned the need to hit AND control the driver...which is good on a handful of holes per round. The only change I would suggest is to mow the grass all around behind the green at fairway height back to the scrub.

I don't disagree with that, but, it would take some of the teeth out of the tiger.
Being long makes for a much easier recovery, hence, there should be a penalty for being long.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

It is my understanding that #13 was once considered one of the truly great par 4s, but technology eventually altered that impression. If I remember correctly, there were one or two players who didn't speak so highly of the hole prior to the Walker Cup.

Tim,

I began playing PV in 1964.
My first round with with two pros, one a long hitter who had won the State PGA.
# 13 was the real deal, a wonderful, long par 4 that tested the drive, second, recovery and putting.

Mother Nature in the name of topography and Tillinghast, built in some unique, and perhaps unintended defenses against the long ball.

The general topography of the hole is pretty unique.

Slightly uphill off the tee with a fairway that crests on the leftside and falls precipitously down to the left if you go long and left, or short and left.

I think hole is captivating because a tee shot down the left side presents the golfer with the shortest route home.
The danger is that awkward lies can complicate the second shot.

Years ago, from the general DZ, a fairway wood or long iron, hit to the right edge of the green, with a slight draw was a smart shot.
For if you pulled it off, you had a birdie putt.
If your ball didn't draw, the terrain fed your ball into the green leaving you a long putt, and if you faded your ball, you were left in the fairway with a pitch to a green that feel away from you.

Only an exceptional tee shot put you in the ideal position to fly the ball at the flag, even if it was cut far left, a diabolical location if you ever saw one, for golfers who missed the green far left, were rarely heard from again.

If the golfer aimed to the center or left center of the green and hit a hard draw or hook, they were goners.

The original and right side tee is land locked, so you couldn't lengthen the original tee.

The newest tee is down and left of the original.
This changes the angle of attack off the tee.
When you combine the more favorable angle of attack from the lower tee with I&B that make it less likely to hook the ball left, golfers are hitting away from the left rough, which was always a disastrous area.

You also have to remember that for decades, golfers hit 7-irons 150-160 yards and 4-woods 210-220
Today, they hit 7-irons 190-210, so ball flight, which was a critical factor in the play of the hole in the 60's, differs dramatically today.

What most golfers miss is how the modernization of the I&B has forced the course and it's peers to transition the defensive focus from the body of a hole to the green and super fast surfaces.

In other words, in 1964 hitting that green in two was a real accomplishment, a very difficult task.
Today, that task isn't nearly as difficult.



What is your recollection? When did the hole reach its peak or lose its edge so to speak?

I couldn't provide you a specific date, but, I believe that the peak, in terms of "playability" occured right before the metal wood was introduced.

I am asking from Archie's perspective of the expert player.

I'd be interested in Archies opinion as well, but, you have to remember, I was probably playing Pine Valley before he was born

[archie_struthers]

 

Sully , no   for me the  4 th hole is better from the back of the front  than from the new tee. . Not harder , but better.  Maybe harder too, when firm and fast , as more trouble is in play . Had a discussion with two excellent present day loopers yesterday  ( over some cold brews )  and they both concurred that no one worries about anything but distance on the tee shot now , and there's no angst as to,what club their players take to the tee anymore. We used to really worry about our guy in the Crump hitting it too far or a little left . The second shot is great for 220. 210 190 180 170 160 155   140 oops  too far !  Rescues are great , but nothing quite like watching Ed Tutwiler hitting a little cut four iron off a hanging lie in the qualifier . You won't see that anymore . As to the new bunkers (beautifully done ) which I don't like , they are moot from the new tee , and just torture the average dudes from the regular tees daily .

I think 13 has evolved in the opposite sense with the advent of technology , as now the golfer must fit that tee shot into a narrow window about 260 off the tee . In the old days , as Pat succinctly reminds us , there wasn't the same worry . I'm all for the worry , it makes great players make bad swings , and only the strong survive.  Mark, as to the trees at the end of the fairway , they are definitely taller , and now they are more in play than 1964 .  

Hey Pat , Appreciate the compliment as to my youth , we're all garage kept here in South Jersey ! I'm looking forward to us both qualifying for the USGA senior this fall at Hidden Creek . Oh , to get to match play in our own back yard  ...

[Dan Herrmann]

Q:  "How to play any hole at Pine Valley quiz ? For the expert player."
A:  "Figure out a way to get past the guard house" 

[JESII]

Archie,

I definitely agree that the shorter tee forces more thought/concern in the planning of the hole...but this has the potential to be a great long par 4 and the short tee leaves me hitting rescue club - 8 iron if there's any bounce in the fairways at all...and I'm by no means extra long. The back tee does ask for a fade so there's more than simply hit it as far as you can.

If memory serves, it's 300 to the crest of the hill so within range for some but not without risk of missing right (could end up anywhere) or pulling it a little left running off the side into trouble.

To me...most importantly, for the expert player the new tee delivers a long, very interesting, very challenging approach shot that just doesn't happen very often. The short tee gives you a cool, pucker inducing lay up tee shot that should result in a mid to short iron approach which is much easier to control into a subtly really great green.

I think #6 is a better tee shot to force good players to consider all the variables you think #4 does...as long as the fairways are firm so the risk of running through is real.

[Peter Pallotta]

Archie, gents - thanks for an excellent thread.

I envy you all not so much the privilege of playing Pine Valley as having sufficient 'game' to interact/engage with that great course -- and any great course -- at such a deep level.

Peter

[archie_struthers]

Thanks Pete , very nice !   Lots of my insight came from listening to players and watching them . I was very fortunate to play there every night after work for three years and check out their theories first hand .

Sully , I'm ok with your  reasoning as very few holes pose a distance threat to really strong players . It's a fabulous shot from he top of the hill and many historians would concur that Geirge Crump,would have smiled at this change . I'm quite sure this is why they built this tee, and resist the urge to,do it elsewhere in the golf course. They have had wonderful stewards in the role as Chairman !  I still don't like the bunkers at the top of the hill , lol ,   We can agree that perhaps moving that tee around during the course of four rounds might really work best !

As i think about Jim's response I fear I may have let him off easy out of respect , lol,    Even if you get the ball to,the bottom of the hill in position "A"  you will invariably have a downhill lie, if ever so slight. That's ok because that's perfect for,the shot that the hole is screaming for , a little hold knock down with 7 or 8 iron .  It's so cool thinking about it that tonite four. has jumped to the top of my favorite hole list at PVGC ! The beauty of the place is that can change daily , and be virtually any hole on the course .

[Tim_Weiman]

Pat Mucci,

I am fairly sure it was Scott Verplank who said #13 was a drive and an 8 iron. Not sure that is how he actually played the hole during the Walker Cup - I was always following Bob Lewis or Jay Sigel - but again, I think he made such a comment.

Thanks for your history lesson.

[archie_struthers]

Actually , I believe this statement was first uttered by none other than the Golden Bear , Jack Nicklaus , back in Mucci's youth ,

[Mark Chaplin]

Dan the guy in the gatehouse is most welcoming, as long as your name is on his list!

[Tim_Weiman]

Actually , I believe this statement was first uttered by none other than the Golden Bear , Jack Nicklaus , back in Mucci's youth ,

Archie,

That's interesting given how Jack's views on technology would evolve over the years and how people would cite what he used to be able to do in rebuttal.

Courses like Pine Valley are so much more important than what some damn engineer can do back in the lab.

Forgive my rant!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Archie,

Don't you think that Pine Valley's architecture, inadvertent as it may have been, provided a natural defense against distance ?

Look at the doglegs where distance could be a killer.

Look at the natural impediments like HHA.

Look at the lack of grooming

And look at narrowing DZ's as you move further from the tee

And look at the more dire consequences inaccurate longer balls encounter.

For the longest time Pine Valley's architecture provided adequate defenses against distance.

The Walker Cup and the combination of the Ball/metal woods caused the club to defensively add length

[Tim_Weiman]

Pat Mucci,

Another way to ask your question is to ask"

At Pine Valley, how useful are drives longer than 300 yards?

I went hole by hole on my iPad with an app called "Measure Map" and didn't seem like there were many examples where drives longer than 300 yards were such a good idea, especially without the proper shape.

But, of course the distance issue is more than just a question of tee shots.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat Mucci,

Another way to ask your question is to ask"

At Pine Valley, how useful are drives longer than 300 yards?

If you play from the old tees, drives of 300 yards will get you in trouble on almost every drive.
It's one thing to graph those drives out on google earth, another to produce the near perfect ball flight at 300 that won't result with the golfer getting in trouble.

I went hole by hole on my iPad with an app called "Measure Map" and didn't seem like there were many examples where drives longer than 300 yards were such a good idea, especially without the proper shape.

Try it from the old tees, not the new tees on # 1, 2, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 11, 12, 13, 15, 16, 17 and 18

But, of course the distance issue is more than just a question of tee shots.

[archie_struthers]

 


I've often thought that golf Gods blessed the design!  The layout has stood the test of time and distance is a perfectly weighted component of the challenge. I happened to play with Mike Dunawy ( long drive champ 1982)  one afternoon and he really had to think about where to go on 1 thru 4 .
He was a good player , not just a smasher.

 I remember it like yesterday on 1 he sent it somewhere close to,the old maintenance barn on 2 fired it right almost to the end of the fairway , parred 3 and then launched one far and high on 4 .  It ended up 40 yards past the cross bunkers in the center and found the bunkers right , maybe 85 yards to,the green . We played 5 and got to 6 where I nuked one (for me )  over the waste bunker and pretty far right in the fairway , I believe about 120 to the flag .  Thinking that he might not hit it too far past mine (lol) we watched incredulously as Mike hit it over the huge stand of trees way right , right at the flag!  The ball ended up on in the left green side bunker , yep about 380 (.google it Tim ) as the crow flies . Yikes. Rocky , yep the one and only had my bag and as we were walking up to,the fairway looked at me and said , "hey pro, I'm sure glad you can put". Which had me laughing all the way to the next shot .  Mike shot around 80 with a few scorecard doubles ,attacking each drive with a fervor only someone who can hit it 350 + might understand .

He took a swing at 7 , driving it 50 yards into HHA and catching a nmarginal lie . Hit it over 8, where it was stone dead and hit some crazy shots. However it convinced me that iyou weren't taking PVGC apart with brute strength , but we all know that . It was a hoot to,watch though.

Pat iand Tim , you are spot on about distance and PVGC.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Archie,

Interesting.

But, I'll guarantee you that he'd play the course differently in a medal qualifying round.

[Tim_Weiman]

Pat,

Perhaps I wasn't clear. Just from a Google Earth view alone, a 300 yard plus drive WAS a problem on many holes.

[archie_struthers]

  >:


Pat, he couldn't  qualify for the Crump Qualifier , but he could really hit it long.  Mike Dunaway , nice guy !

Tim. how far is back of 6 tee to left green side bunker.  I'm guessing 360 at least as the crow , and his ball flew!

[Tim_Weiman]

Archie,

Yes. It is just about 360.

[Patrick_Mucci]

As to other holes where the shorter shot is the shot of choice,  I've ALWAYS Prefered a 30-50 yard shot with my Ping L-Wedge versus a shot from 80-120 yards. [/color]

Cheers

Even off the fescue at Bandon or Streamsong, or on the great links of the UK?!? 

Everywhere !

And, I could play a low shot with very high RPM's that would bounce twice and stop on a dime, or a high Lob, depending on my feel for the shot, lie, intervening land form and hazards and the target surrounds


Or are you referring simply to those situations at Pine Valley? 

Everywhere !

What type of grass is in Pine Valley's fairways and what types of lies does it produce on average in terms of the ball sitting up?

It never mattered to me and I've probably played the course under every type of fairway condition.

But Archie could probably address the grass types better than me.

[PGertner]

Way cool thread Archie!!! Thanks!! Brought back memories....

One disagreement though.....you a player!!!

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