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Scott Macpherson

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World Hickory Open & Panmure GC
« on: October 07, 2014, 02:14:20 AM »
Today the World Hickory Open tees off at the Panmure Golf Club in Angus, Scotland. The course is famous for being the venue where Ben Hogan practiced for 2 weeks (with the 'small' ball) before winning the Open Championship at Carnoustie (800 yards away) in 1953.

Panmure is a wonderful old club and over 110 hickory golfers have gathered from all over the world to play 36 holes over two days. A notable competitor this year is Masters and Open Champion Sandy Lyle. Sandy has been playing hickory golf since 2011, but this is the first hickory competition he has ever played.

After a practice round yesterday, the course will be a fun test the hickory golfers. The humps and hollows will present many challenges for a game where the running shot is a key part of the game. Strategy will also be important as it is near impossible to over-power a course.

For the event, the tees are moved forward a little, but the course may be around 5800-6000 yards. I wonder if this format of golf is a way that some of these classic courses can be enjoyed again? If hickory golf clubs were more easily available – say, for hire at golf clubs – would modern golfers enjoy the opportunity to play this classic form of the game on occasion?

Scott

« Last Edit: October 08, 2014, 05:44:24 PM by Scott Macpherson »

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: World Hickory Open & Panmure GC
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2014, 02:52:22 AM »
Scott - Sadly very few would be interested.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Thomas Dai

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Re: World Hickory Open & Panmure GC
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2014, 03:03:24 AM »
Fine post Scott.

The event - http://www.worldhickoryopen.com/ - sounds splendid and Panmure is a terrific course.

It will be interesting to see how Sandy Lyle gets on. I'd heard he'd been playing hickory and is apparently 'distinctly useful' with them.

Your comment about more folk playing hickory on courses in the 5,800-6,000 yd range is spot on. Indeed as a sometime hickory player I would go further and suggest that to fully appreciate courses built during the hickory period is it necessary to play them with hickories (and from modern 'forward' tees).

The main hassle IMO with playing hickory period golf is not the clubs (or wearing/not wearing the clothes!), it's the ball. It's not easy to acquire balls that perform like those of latter years at sensible prices. Sure there are replica's around but the £$£$ is high, so a true comparison isn't really possible.

Taking the issue of the ball a bit further, there is a UK golf magazine called Todays's Golfer. The Nov issue has a six page 'interview' with Tiger, which I imagine is available on-line somewhere, about equipment/Nike equipment. It's quite an interesting 'interview'. I was surprised as such articles are normally pretty bland. One sentence really stood out -

"In 2000, I played at St Andrews and was playing the 9th hole. It was drivable at the time. I had a Tour Accuracy (ball) in my bag at the time and Peter Dawson came out, the head of the R&A. So I hit driver - it was downwind - and I drove it on the green.

He said:'Hey, why don't you try this one? It was an old gutta-percha ball. So I hit it, and there's two bunkers off the tee that I had never seen before and I just barely carried them. I said, "Oh, shit!"

I drove it on the green with my ball, and then I hit driver and a 4-iron with a gutat-percha to the same hole. I think technology has come a long way.
"

Quite pertinent.

As to courses that have hickories on-site to rent is there anywhere other than Musselburgh Old that currently does?

atb
« Last Edit: October 07, 2014, 03:21:54 AM by Thomas Dai »

Rich Goodale

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Re: World Hickory Open & Panmure GC
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2014, 04:10:00 AM »
Scott

I played a two-day competition at Panmure a couple of months ago, and it was more than enough for me and my two playing companions (including a +1 player who struggled to break 80 in both rounds) using modern balls and equipment.

As for the course it is magnificent, and the most fun of all the 8 new (for me) courses I played this year.

As for Hogan, I heard a great story about him when I was at Panmure regarding his practice there prior to the 1953 Carnoustie Open.  Apparently Hogan was told, or learned, that the 17th green at Panmure had the most similar turf to the Carnoustie greens, and so he asked the head greenkeeper if he could mow it to Open championship height to help him practiuce his chipping and putting.  The greenkeeper said "Och, Aye!" and brought his hand mower to the green, gave it to Hogan and told him to cut away to his heart's content.  Ben did as he was told....
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Colin Macqueen

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Re: World Hickory Open & Panmure GC
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2014, 04:20:38 AM »
Scott,
What a wonderful event this will be!  Panmure is the golf course I know better than any other in The British Isles having caddied there during the mid sixties  a couple of hundred times!

I would be down there in a flash if this year had been my "visit the UK year".

Now before VK and KS get too excited my caddying experience there was fraught but there were also many memorable moments so I have got a tad excited at the prospect of hickory golf going on at my old and most-times happy hunting ground. Gosh that would be fun to be playing in or maybe even caddying!!

The memory of whisky-laden breath  from my "man" and his friends is seared in my brain. Sadly I had the absolutely worst golfer in the club as my "man". He was very kind but was not given much time or truck by the better golfers .. a bit sad but he was dreadful! You know you had to be there at at no later than 10:00a.m. for your "man" but of course he may have been busy in the "city" (Dundee mind!!) then he might have a bit of lunch and then he might play a round towards 2:00p.m.!!! Rest assured if you did not hang around and wait for his "lordship" you wouldn't have a regular "man" thereafter. Tough gig for an impecunious teenager! Nonetheless I always go back there when I go to Angus and drift down memory lane. I woud love to have been there this autumn.

Not a very apropos post by me but just having seen off six siblings from here in Oz reminiscing and maudlin behaviour will just have to be accepted!

Cheers Colin
"Golf, thou art a gentle sprite, I owe thee much"
The Hielander

Mike Policano

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Re: World Hickory Open & Panmure GC
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2014, 09:14:52 AM »
The World Hickory Open is run by founder Lionel Friedman of Musselburg. Lionel was the Honorary Starter and Referee of the Inaugural World Hickory Match Championship, run by Brian Schuman. It was held at the St. Martin's Course at the Philadelphia Cricket Club.

Sandy Lyle will have his hands full with the defending World Champion, Paolo Quirici of Switzerland. Ironically Paolo picked up hickories after a friend of his invited him to play the wooden clubs. And the friend had just started playing after reading a novel on hickories by Tim Alpaugh who had stayed at a St. Andrews B&B run by Paolo's friend's parents. Paolo played on the European Tour for several years and once shot 59.

As for the balls, in the hickory world, that is a hot topic. Most of the tournaments allow any ball. The World Hickory March Play Championship and the Metropolitan Hickory Society on allow reproduction golf balls based on the Wilson 50.



C. Sturges

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Re: World Hickory Open & Panmure GC
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2014, 09:27:02 AM »
Scott,
I think this is a great way to make old Classic courses more enjoyable for the scratch golfer.  The difficult part to getting more people to try and play hickories is the cost to get involved.  I know most of the events in the US have rentals available to get new people interested!  The other part for me is, originals vs reproductions.  The standard of equipment can be staggering. 
I hope to see more hickory events and players,
chris

Will Peterson

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Re: World Hickory Open & Panmure GC
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2014, 10:37:26 AM »
Hickory is a great fun, but somewhat difficult and daunting to get involved and ready to play.  If you don't have a mentor to guide you, it is a very confusing world. 

I've been playing hickory for about a year.  I ran into a guy practicing with hickory one day, and struck up a conversation.  He invited me to play 9 with him a couple of weeks later, and I had a blast.  A few months later, my girlfriend started to play golf, and we frequented an executive 9 hole course from the 1910s that just wasn't much fun with my modern equipment.  I contacted the hickory guy to assist with a set.  He brought 30+ clubs to the range for me to try, and I got the bones of my set.  He was also extremely generous with his time in helping me find other clubs online.  I would send him links from ebay, and he would tell me if the clubs were a good buy and what price was fair.  Without this help, I would have had no idea what to look for in clubs.  Over the past year, he has taught me to whip, re-grip, and take apart and assemble loose heads.  He also invited me to join the local hickory group for play days. 

Everyone I have met playing hickory has been extremely nice and welcoming.  They love to share their knowledge and passion for the history of the game, and are more than willing to let you use/rent clubs to get started.  The problem for potential hickory players is finding the group.  I had no idea anything like it existed near where I lived.

I've done my set on somewhat of a budget, but it does start to add up, especially for a set that is your second part time set.

Additionally, hickory is more difficult.  My average is 3-4 shots higher with hickory, but the outlier high rounds are MUCH higher when they happen.  I enjoy hickory because I just play golf.  I don't worry as much about yardage or swing, and just hit it from A to B.  This can be difficult for lots players.  Many people also don't like the idea of moving up so many sets of tees. 

Thomas Dai

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Re: World Hickory Open & Panmure GC
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2014, 04:34:34 PM »
The disparity in scores between modern clubs and hickories as seen by the British Golf Collectors Society and thus the handicap rules pertaining to this event are -

1: Professionals- no shots added, play off scratch
2: Add 3 shots for scratch to 3 handicap
3: Add 4 shots for 4-8 handicap
4: Add 5 shots for 9-14 handicap
5: Add 6 shots for 15-20 handicap
6: Add 7 shots for 21 handicap upwards.

Not sure if there's a mandatory yee-olde-replica type golf ball for this event. In some events all players have to use the same type of ball (they're all 'given' some, or rather a packet is included in the cost of the competition entry fee).

atb

Will Peterson

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Re: World Hickory Open & Panmure GC
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2014, 06:17:16 PM »
The disparity in scores between modern clubs and hickories as seen by the British Golf Collectors Society and thus the handicap rules pertaining to this event are -

1: Professionals- no shots added, play off scratch
2: Add 3 shots for scratch to 3 handicap
3: Add 4 shots for 4-8 handicap
4: Add 5 shots for 9-14 handicap
5: Add 6 shots for 15-20 handicap
6: Add 7 shots for 21 handicap upwards.

Not sure if there's a mandatory yee-olde-replica type golf ball for this event. In some events all players have to use the same type of ball (they're all 'given' some, or rather a packet is included in the cost of the competition entry fee).

atb

Those seem to be pretty fair, although I've found the replica ball will add at least one more shot.  I'm under scratch with modern clubs, and play off 3 in hickory events (we use the replica patterns stamped on a Wilson ball).

Wayne_Kozun

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Re: World Hickory Open & Panmure GC
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2014, 12:48:23 PM »
For those of you that play with Hickories what ball do you use?  I use the Srixon Soft Feel balls upon the recommendation of the fellow who restored and sold me my clubs.  He also said not to use them with range balls if you can help it and not to use plastic or painted tees.

Several years ago I was in Scotland for a business trip - but I managed to sneak out one day to play North Berwick.  This was a day or two before the World Hickory Open was being played at Gullane.  I happened to be paired with two guys from Sweden who were practicing for the WHO - one was a pro and the other was a scratch golfer.  They played Pro V1s and it was amazing how far and how well they hit the ball with those clubs.

In 2012 my club had a Hicory tournament as part of our centennial celebrations.  I met a gentleman who restored hickories as his hobby.  He managed to get me a set of clubs, primarily Tom Stewart irons.  But I have only played a couple of full rounds with them - I find they are good to use when you play with some seniors who are playing from the White tees.

Will Peterson

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Re: World Hickory Open & Panmure GC
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2014, 05:10:40 PM »
Wayne,

The group I play with uses McIntyre balls (http://www.mcintyregolf.com) for events.  I've used the mesh and small dimple replicas, and prefer the dimple.  I believe they have the core of a Wilson low compression ball with the replica pattern.  When I play on my own, I use a ProV or Bridgestone B330-RX.  I was told that the replica balls would fly 10% shorter, but I haven't seen any loss in distance.

Scott Macpherson

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Re: World Hickory Open & Panmure GC
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2014, 05:43:48 PM »
Hi,

Thomas, I am with Wayne and use a Srizon Soft Feel ball. They are cheap and widely available. They are better for old hickory shafted clubs because they are a little softer than high compression balls. Golfers using replica hickory clubs (such as those made by Tad Moore) can use any modern ball they like as the shafts are stronger.

As regards clubs, some competitors in the World Hickory Open (WHO) are playing hickory clubs for the first time. I think the organisers are making a set of clubs available to these competitors for free.

Panmure GC turned out to be a great host for the event and the Winner was Sandy Lyle who shot (74, 69= 143) to beat two other professionals who tied on 146 (one of whom was Pablo, the defending champion). Note; par for the course was 70.

Next year the event will be played on the championship links at Carnoustie – the first time a modern hickory event has been played on a links currently on the Open rota.

Here is a BBC link about the event from Day One.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-29523907

Scott




Thomas Dai

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Re: World Hickory Open & Panmure GC
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2014, 02:49:28 AM »
Scott,

With my hickories I try to use Bridgestone 333RXS's, nice and soft and relatively inexpensive. The Srixon Soft-Feel and AD333's are my next choices. I never use a hard style ball or a range ball and never, ever hit off mats.

Terrific news about Sandy Lyle winning. There is a supposed reply, maybe true, maybe not, by Seve from the late 70's-early '80's when he was asked a question along the lines of "if all the best players played in the same tournament and they all played their best how many shots would you win by?". "I not win, I finish second." apparently said Seve, "Sandy Lyle, he win by four shots"!

Roll on Carnoustie next year.

atb
« Last Edit: October 09, 2014, 03:46:05 AM by Thomas Dai »

David_Tepper

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Re: World Hickory Open & Panmure GC
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2014, 02:03:42 PM »
Sandy Lyle wins the World Hickory playing with Tad Moore reproductions:

http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2014/10/13/sandy-on-world-hickory-win-it-got-my-ticker-going.html

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