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Jim Hoak

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Naval Academy golf course, Annapolis
« on: October 05, 2014, 09:20:00 PM »
A friend of mine is trying to rally support for a restoration of the Naval Academy golf course in Annapolis.  It is a Flynn design, has great bones, he says, but is in poor shape and in need of a restoration.
Has anyone played it?  What are your impressions of it?  Is it in need of a restoration?  Is it worthy of money being spent on it?

Steve_ Shaffer

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"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Naval Academy golf course, Annapolis
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2014, 10:34:05 PM »
Jim, I have played the Academy course two or three times a year for over thirty years.  In all that time very little has changed.  Some bunker work and tree removal but not much else.  Conditioning is sometimes good and sometimes pretty lousy.  There is a joke that it depends on whether or not the Academy Superintendant plays golf.   It is routed on some very good rolling hills and has a few standout holes.  The greens don't have much movement but many have a great deal of slope.  I think the greens may have shrunk over the years.  I do not know for certain, but I would think that over the years bunkers have disappeared, although I can't recall any that have disappeared in my time there.

It could be an excellent course if someone did renovation/redesign work there.  For instance, the fourth hole is a 190 yard par three.  The green is pretty round, flat, and boring with a bunker not many frequent.  I'd be interested to see what it was like when the hole was designed.  On the other hand eight is a wonderful par four with a green diagonal to the fairway perched on a hillside and a deep bunker devilishly placed in the front of the green. It is a great hole. 

If could be a great test.
Tom Williamsen
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

Chris DeToro

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Re: Naval Academy golf course, Annapolis
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2014, 08:08:07 AM »
I played the Naval Academy course several years ago and agree with the sentiment here--it definitely has great bones, lots of character and charm, and would be much improved by some renovation.  I know there have been threads on the great military courses before and this one is certainly near the top, but the courses often get lost in the shuffle of the other amenities on base

Joe_Tucholski

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Re: Naval Academy golf course, Annapolis
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2014, 04:58:59 AM »
As an AF Academy grad (we just beat Navy football to, likely, take back the commander and chiefs trophy) I have to say I'm not a huge fan of the course.  My parents live real close by, as my dad is on the faculty at the Academy.  When I go back to visit I'll play the course occasionally if my dad wants to play.  I'm never too excited to play there.  As Tommy said a number of the greens are round flat with uninteresting bunkers.  Most military courses seem to end up this way even if they have decent terrain (as the Naval Academy does).  The courses are meant to provide recreation at an affordable rate and often are a place where beginners learn to play.  I'm not saying the course is bad.  If I were stationed there it would be where I played.

Chris DeToro

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Re: Naval Academy golf course, Annapolis
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2014, 07:44:28 AM »
Yes, most military courses do become relatively uninteresting, which is unfortunate too because most of them are on great land and were designed by well regarded architects. 

How is the AF Academy course these days?

Britt Rife

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Re: Naval Academy golf course, Annapolis
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2014, 11:05:33 AM »
Don't count on any restoration to Flynn's old plans.  It seems that there is plan in place to lengthen the course here and there and to significantly modify certain holes--the Athletic Director believes that this will be to the advantage of the USNA golf team.   We'll see how that goes.  Fantastic course as it is, though. 


Bryan Icenhower

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Re: Naval Academy golf course, Annapolis
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2014, 12:46:17 PM »
Yes, most military courses do become relatively uninteresting,

Interesting comment- why?

My grandfather is buried in the campus cemetery, have always wondered about the course but have never played.

mike_beene

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Re: Naval Academy golf course, Annapolis
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2014, 06:42:05 PM »
Inside the PGA tour is at the Naval Academy right now on Golf Channel

Joe_Tucholski

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Re: Naval Academy golf course, Annapolis
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2014, 09:38:35 AM »
...
How is the AF Academy course these days?

Chris unfortunately I haven't seen them since 2006.

Yes, most military courses do become relatively uninteresting,

Interesting comment- why?
...

Bryan I should say this is my opinion based on playing roughly 30 military courses, 9 of which I consider home courses.

Let's use my last home course, the courses at Eglin Air Force base, as an example.  The Eagle course was originally constructed by Langford and Moreau and opened in the 1920's.  The club was opened as a course for Chicago businessmen who wintered in the area.  Eventually the US Air Force took control of the course.  If you look at early aerials of the course almost every hole had fairway bunkers.  Currently only the 18th hole has a fairway bunker.  Also the green shapes have changed significantly.  So why is that?

My thoughts are the courses operate on a constrained budget.  This post is already straying a bit from the thread topic and I really don't want it to go further off topic regarding the merits of the US federal government and it's financing but basically most of the golf courses operated by the department of defense utilize something called Nonappropriated Funds.  Generally these funds are not funds appropriated by congress in the annual budget.  Instead they are funds raised by the sales of goods or services primarily focused on providing morale, welfare and recreation to eligible individuals (usually military members, their families and authorized civilians).  Some examples of these services include the golf course, bowling alleys, movie theaters, lodging, gyms, libraries, child/youth services (day care) and some school services (think extra curricular activities associated with schools on military bases).  Sure you are thinking all golf courses must operate based on what they can make, but the money from the golf course, which is usually a money maker, is put into a common fund and will offset some of the programs that will loose money (library, school services, gym...).  So when the budget is tight the operators of the golf courses need to save money somewhere and I assume they are going to take out bunkers and reduce green sizes.

I recently arrived at a new assignment and found the greens on the golf course were in pretty rough shape, to put it nicely.  Two weeks ago they shut down three greens for a week and laid new sod.  We are playing on them now.  They roll like shit and each green lost about two feet on the edges.  I can only assume the reduction in size was to save money on the sod needed to replace the greens.  I also assume smaller greens will save money on future maintenance costs.

To bring this back to the Naval Academy Golf Course.  The course is operated a little differently than most other DOD courses.  The course is essentially operated by a sub-organization of the Naval Academy Athletic Association (NAAA).  NAAA is a 501C3 non-profit organization and has multiple sub organizations.  Somehow operating this way allows the money to be raised differently and used differently (think alumni donations).  From my understanding this makes a large scale renovation of the golf course a more likely possibility.

p.s. if someone has more knowledge on the topic please correct any errors I have made as I'm by no means an expert on the ins and outs of government finance.  I just figured I could contribute as I'm in the military and spend my recreation time playing military courses.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2014, 09:45:23 AM by Joe_Tucholski »

Chris DeToro

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Re: Naval Academy golf course, Annapolis
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2014, 02:37:46 PM »
I'm in a similar situation as well having grown up on military courses around the world.  Many of them are on great pieces of land and designed by well known architects, but they just don't get the attention and care needed to sustain some of the great features

Bryan Icenhower

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Naval Academy golf course, Annapolis
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2014, 06:20:00 PM »
...
How is the AF Academy course these days?

Chris unfortunately I haven't seen them since 2006.

Yes, most military courses do become relatively uninteresting,

Interesting comment- why?
...

Bryan I should say this is my opinion based on playing roughly 30 military courses, 9 of which I consider home courses.

Let's use my last home course, the courses at Eglin Air Force base, as an example.  The Eagle course was originally constructed by Langford and Moreau and opened in the 1920's.  The club was opened as a course for Chicago businessmen who wintered in the area.  Eventually the US Air Force took control of the course.  If you look at early aerials of the course almost every hole had fairway bunkers.  Currently only the 18th hole has a fairway bunker.  Also the green shapes have changed significantly.  So why is that?

My thoughts are the courses operate on a constrained budget.  This post is already straying a bit from the thread topic and I really don't want it to go further off topic regarding the merits of the US federal government and it's financing but basically most of the golf courses operated by the department of defense utilize something called Nonappropriated Funds.  Generally these funds are not funds appropriated by congress in the annual budget.  Instead they are funds raised by the sales of goods or services primarily focused on providing morale, welfare and recreation to eligible individuals (usually military members, their families and authorized civilians).  Some examples of these services include the golf course, bowling alleys, movie theaters, lodging, gyms, libraries, child/youth services (day care) and some school services (think extra curricular activities associated with schools on military bases).  Sure you are thinking all golf courses must operate based on what they can make, but the money from the golf course, which is usually a money maker, is put into a common fund and will offset some of the programs that will loose money (library, school services, gym...).  So when the budget is tight the operators of the golf courses need to save money somewhere and I assume they are going to take out bunkers and reduce green sizes.

I recently arrived at a new assignment and found the greens on the golf course were in pretty rough shape, to put it nicely.  Two weeks ago they shut down three greens for a week and laid new sod.  We are playing on them now.  They roll like shit and each green lost about two feet on the edges.  I can only assume the reduction in size was to save money on the sod needed to replace the greens.  I also assume smaller greens will save money on future maintenance costs.

To bring this back to the Naval Academy Golf Course.  The course is operated a little differently than most other DOD courses.  The course is essentially operated by a sub-organization of the Naval Academy Athletic Association (NAAA).  NAAA is a 501C3 non-profit organization and has multiple sub organizations.  Somehow operating this way allows the money to be raised differently and used differently (think alumni donations).  From my understanding this makes a large scale renovation of the golf course a more likely possibility.

p.s. if someone has more knowledge on the topic please correct any errors I have made as I'm by no means an expert on the ins and outs of government finance.  I just figured I could contribute as I'm in the military and spend my recreation time playing military courses.

Thanks, makes a lot of commonsense sense to me

Bryan Icenhower

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Naval Academy golf course, Annapolis
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2014, 11:57:33 AM »
Here is a link to a 2013 Master Plan for the USNA Golf Course Mike Sweeney posted on twitter.

http://www.mcdonaldgolfinc.com/design/usna/usna2013book.pdf

Mike Sweeney

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Re: Naval Academy golf course, Annapolis
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2017, 07:03:45 AM »
Here is a link to a 2013 Master Plan for the USNA Golf Course Mike Sweeney posted on twitter.

http://www.mcdonaldgolfinc.com/design/usna/usna2013book.pdf


Well the master plan is no longer there but I did finally get to play the course yesterday. In the golf course access issues of life, it is the only course where a Congressional Nomination was needed!

When you drive into the course, there are a few holes that run parallel to the road, so I was thinking it was a flat course. The opening hole sets the tone for the very nice piece of land that will come:








I thought it was a terrific course. 9 & 18 are flat long 4's that simply bring you home but there are some really terrific holes, greens, and land out there. There are only three Par 3's and the first two are just okay, but the downhole 17th hole is a fabulous Postage Stamp style hole:


The course sits in the middle of a bunch of support services for the main campus on the other side of the Severn River, so it is very busy on the perimeters unlike say Yale which is surrounded by woods.

With a restoration and a tweak or two to conditioning, it would sit in that base of William Flynn Philly courses in the Doak 6-7 range. With the end of my son's second year at USNA in sight, his time is a little more flexible. In the coming seasons, I hope to return.



#GoNavy
« Last Edit: April 15, 2017, 07:21:50 AM by Mike Sweeney »
"We need to allow people to make decisions for themselves and their local communities and families. Trying to tie everything into one package simply does not work." 5/11/21

Dave Maberry

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Re: Naval Academy golf course, Annapolis
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2017, 09:21:10 AM »
Here's a link to 2013 Master Plan:


http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/navy/genrel/auto_pdf/2013-14/misc_non_event/master-plan.pdf


I don't know if any of this was implemented.


Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Naval Academy golf course, Annapolis
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2017, 10:34:08 AM »
In the aerial view of the course you will notice a little peninsula that juts out into the Chesapeake Bay. about twenty years ago the existing pro, Larry Ringer, pushed for a nine hole addition to the course. Some preliminary plans were drawn but nothing came of the plan. It could have been a nice addition to the existing course. I have no idea who drew up the plans. It might have been Ringer himself.
Tom Williamsen
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Naval Academy golf course, Annapolis
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2017, 11:10:04 AM »
Hey, Mike.


Tried to PM you, but ...


Ask your son if he knows Greg Sibick at USNA. Greg golfed for me (and was my student) at school in Buffalo.
Maybe for 2022
~Eden Valley
~Hillview
~Pinehurst (NY)
~Kis 'N Greens
~Pine Meadows
~18 Mile Creek
~Greenwood
~Shawnee
~Leroy
~

Mike Sweeney

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Re: Naval Academy golf course, Annapolis
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2017, 08:48:08 PM »

To bring this back to the Naval Academy Golf Course.  The course is operated a little differently than most other DOD courses.  The course is essentially operated by a sub-organization of the Naval Academy Athletic Association (NAAA).  NAAA is a 501C3 non-profit organization and has multiple sub organizations.  Somehow operating this way allows the money to be raised differently and used differently (think alumni donations).  From my understanding this makes a large scale renovation of the golf course a more likely possibility.

p.s. if someone has more knowledge on the topic please correct any errors I have made as I'm by no means an expert on the ins and outs of government finance.  I just figured I could contribute as I'm in the military and spend my recreation time playing military courses.


So I was at a reception tonight for USNA and federal employees are not allowed to fundraise. This reception had nothing to do with the golf course, and it had nothing to do with politics. Thus, the NAAA was probably established as a fundraising vehicle.


Because the land sits on the property of the USA/Defense Department, I am guessing that this is a complicated conversation when there are many other priorities in Annapolis:


https://www.usna.edu/NewsCenter/2016/04/contract-awarded-for-construction-of-cyber-building.php
"We need to allow people to make decisions for themselves and their local communities and families. Trying to tie everything into one package simply does not work." 5/11/21

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Naval Academy golf course, Annapolis
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2017, 05:41:13 PM »


With a restoration and a tweak or two to conditioning, it would sit in that base of William Flynn Philly courses in the Doak 6-7 range. With the end of my son's second year at USNA in sight, his time is a little more flexible. In the coming seasons, I hope to return.



#GoNavy

In honor of our friend Bob, I observe that the untucked shirt is a long-standing Sweeney tradition.   ;)



Mike Sweeney

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Re: Naval Academy golf course, Annapolis
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2017, 08:27:59 PM »
Thanks for the flashback Mr. Mayhugh !

I have always loved your observations of accoutrements attached to golf course architecture. At least until I became one of the unorthodox accoutrements in your observations!!
"We need to allow people to make decisions for themselves and their local communities and families. Trying to tie everything into one package simply does not work." 5/11/21

Mike Sweeney

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Re: Naval Academy golf course, Annapolis
« Reply #20 on: April 01, 2018, 07:17:28 PM »
Spoke to some USNA members today on the first tee, and they will be using Andrew Green for the renovation over the next two years:


http://greengolfandturf.com

It sounds like Andrew broke away from McDonald since this plan was formed, but he is the author:

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/navy/genrel/auto_pdf/2013-14/misc_non_event/master-plan.pdf


From the website:

https://usnagolf.com/the-course/#top

"Beginning in 2018, and over the next several years, NAGA will commit to the renovation of Greenbury Point. We will begin the restoration of William Flynn's vision with a bunker refurbishment as Phase III and IV of our capital project. In Phase V, we will create a complete set of greens, restoring missing green space and providing sustainable surfaces for the future. We will protect the investment in new turf with an updated irrigation system in Phase VI, and enhance playability with new fairway turf in Phase VII. This lengthy and comprehensive undertaking represents the next chapter in the legacy of Navy Golf."

_____________________________________________

Andrew Green on Twitter: https://twitter.com/GreenGCA/status/979300853927632896


__________________________________________________


Also of note, the project support extends back to Friend of Bob Huntley and Friend of many posters here - Admiral Hank Mauz:






The Admiral's support of golf now extends from Cypress Point to Annapolis....
« Last Edit: April 02, 2018, 07:42:45 AM by Mike Sweeney »
"We need to allow people to make decisions for themselves and their local communities and families. Trying to tie everything into one package simply does not work." 5/11/21

Jeff Schley

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Re: Naval Academy golf course, Annapolis
« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2018, 10:23:34 AM »
Spoke to some USNA members today on the first tee, and they will be using Andrew Green for the renovation over the next two years:


http://greengolfandturf.com

It sounds like Andrew broke away from McDonald since this plan was formed, but he is the author:

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/navy/genrel/auto_pdf/2013-14/misc_non_event/master-plan.pdf


From the website:

https://usnagolf.com/the-course/#top

"Beginning in 2018, and over the next several years, NAGA will commit to the renovation of Greenbury Point. We will begin the restoration of William Flynn's vision with a bunker refurbishment as Phase III and IV of our capital project. In Phase V, we will create a complete set of greens, restoring missing green space and providing sustainable surfaces for the future. We will protect the investment in new turf with an updated irrigation system in Phase VI, and enhance playability with new fairway turf in Phase VII. This lengthy and comprehensive undertaking represents the next chapter in the legacy of Navy Golf."

_____________________________________________

Andrew Green on Twitter: https://twitter.com/GreenGCA/status/979300853927632896


__________________________________________________


Also of note, the project support extends back to Friend of Bob Huntley and Friend of many posters here - Admiral Hank Mauz:






The Admiral's support of golf now extends from Cypress Point to Annapolis....

Great news and thanks for the update.  I haven't played, but looks like a wonderful layout our midshipmen deserve.

Thank you to your son for his service!
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Scott Senior

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Naval Academy golf course, Annapolis
« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2018, 11:46:29 AM »
...
How is the AF Academy course these days?

Chris unfortunately I haven't seen them since 2006.

Yes, most military courses do become relatively uninteresting,

Interesting comment- why?
...

Bryan I should say this is my opinion based on playing roughly 30 military courses, 9 of which I consider home courses.

Let's use my last home course, the courses at Eglin Air Force base, as an example.  The Eagle course was originally constructed by Langford and Moreau and opened in the 1920's.  The club was opened as a course for Chicago businessmen who wintered in the area.  Eventually the US Air Force took control of the course.  If you look at early aerials of the course almost every hole had fairway bunkers.  Currently only the 18th hole has a fairway bunker.  Also the green shapes have changed significantly.  So why is that?

My thoughts are the courses operate on a constrained budget.  This post is already straying a bit from the thread topic and I really don't want it to go further off topic regarding the merits of the US federal government and it's financing but basically most of the golf courses operated by the department of defense utilize something called Nonappropriated Funds.  Generally these funds are not funds appropriated by congress in the annual budget.  Instead they are funds raised by the sales of goods or services primarily focused on providing morale, welfare and recreation to eligible individuals (usually military members, their families and authorized civilians).  Some examples of these services include the golf course, bowling alleys, movie theaters, lodging, gyms, libraries, child/youth services (day care) and some school services (think extra curricular activities associated with schools on military bases).  Sure you are thinking all golf courses must operate based on what they can make, but the money from the golf course, which is usually a money maker, is put into a common fund and will offset some of the programs that will loose money (library, school services, gym...).  So when the budget is tight the operators of the golf courses need to save money somewhere and I assume they are going to take out bunkers and reduce green sizes.

I recently arrived at a new assignment and found the greens on the golf course were in pretty rough shape, to put it nicely.  Two weeks ago they shut down three greens for a week and laid new sod.  We are playing on them now.  They roll like shit and each green lost about two feet on the edges.  I can only assume the reduction in size was to save money on the sod needed to replace the greens.  I also assume smaller greens will save money on future maintenance costs.

To bring this back to the Naval Academy Golf Course.  The course is operated a little differently than most other DOD courses.  The course is essentially operated by a sub-organization of the Naval Academy Athletic Association (NAAA).  NAAA is a 501C3 non-profit organization and has multiple sub organizations.  Somehow operating this way allows the money to be raised differently and used differently (think alumni donations).  From my understanding this makes a large scale renovation of the golf course a more likely possibility.

p.s. if someone has more knowledge on the topic please correct any errors I have made as I'm by no means an expert on the ins and outs of government finance.  I just figured I could contribute as I'm in the military and spend my recreation time playing military courses.


Joe-


Thank you for your service! Our freedom is certainly no free...I truly appreciate people like you defending it!


Best,
Scott

Mike Sweeney

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Re: Naval Academy golf course, Annapolis
« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2018, 06:00:30 PM »
The course is essentially operated by a sub-organization of the Naval Academy Athletic Association (NAAA).  NAAA is a 501C3 non-profit organization and has multiple sub organizations.  Somehow operating this way allows the money to be raised differently and used differently (think alumni donations).  From my understanding this makes a large scale renovation of the golf course a more likely possibility.

p.s. if someone has more knowledge on the topic please correct any errors I have made as I'm by no means an expert on the ins and outs of government finance.  I just figured I could contribute as I'm in the military and spend my recreation time playing military courses.


You got the basic formula of the NAAA. Basically USNA moved the entire Athletic Department into its own separate 501c-3 and it uses NO tax payer dollars. This gives them lots of freedom and I am surprised that other NCAA schools have not followed this model. The Army - Navy Game is a huge piece of the financial puzzle as it funds a big piece of the NAAA.


I think West Point is trying to get to the same place in terms of financial structure, but they would need to BLOW UP West Point Golf Course and the mountains its sits in to have a serious chance of rivaling the USNA GC.  ;)


#GoNavyBeatArmy  8)
« Last Edit: April 02, 2018, 06:02:49 PM by Mike Sweeney »
"We need to allow people to make decisions for themselves and their local communities and families. Trying to tie everything into one package simply does not work." 5/11/21

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Naval Academy golf course, Annapolis
« Reply #24 on: April 02, 2018, 07:49:53 PM »
 I hope it happens, but I have my doubts. I have heard about such plans many times.
Tom Williamsen
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

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