[Paul Jones]

I have to side with Trump on this one.  He is bettering the golf course and looking at options to lower the noise while maintaining the course.  I really don't believe people were hanging laundry outside, but I also think this compliant has no merit.

[Patrick_Mucci]

That some dense air on Mt Everest then, huh?


KMIA is at 10' ASL, Mt Everest is at 29,029' ASL.
That's an horrendous analogy and I would have expected better from you.

I fly out of Houston all the time, and work on the gulf coast where it is very hot in the summer. I've never thought of describing the air as thin.

That's probably because of the humidity.
Houston is more humid than Miami

Bringing this back to golf, the ball flies farther in thin air, no?

Yes, because of the lower resistance presented by thinner air.

Yet, when I play golf in the summer heat in my hometown, La Quinta, CA I'm a club or two longer then I am here on the gulf coast during the summer.

That may be because you're probably at a much lower altitude on the Gulf Coast.
Palm Springs is at about 500' ASL and that makes a difference.

Guess the humidity just weakens me. When its hot at KMIA, is it humid as well?

Not really.
The humidity usually rolls in in June and is out by October.


What that has to do with thrust, I really have no idea.


Heat =  thinner air, depriving aircraft of lift, meaning that more power is needed, and power = thrust.[]/size]

But hot and humid don't make the air feel thin, to me at least.

That's mostly due to humidity.

[Sean_A]

It will be tough to prove selective enforcement.  I would think moreso because of the airport.  Authorities often turn a blind eye to ordinances.  One, because they are often unenforceable with any degree of consistency and two, because it is often not expedient to pursue enforcement.  But the more complaints that roll in, the harder it is to justify the above two even with an airport nearby - persistent offenders are often treated with less regard in terms of turning a blind eye.  

At this point, with the municipality issueing the citation, the number of subsequent complaints are irrelevant.

It is immaterial if the course was there before the houses.
Prior knowledge of a problem doesn't negate one's right to pursue enforcement.  

That's not what the courts have historically decided with golf courses in the U.S., although, the mood is shifting.

Noise pollution would not be an exception.

It's a pre-existing condition and would apply as an condition that existed prior to purchase.  

That said, I can see a judge (assuming a dumbass case like this ever went so far) ruling against the club, but not imposing much of a penalty.  
While airports are horrendously noisy, they are a bit special compared to a golf club.  Needless to say, I think the club should works something out - it would be best for them in the long run - especially if they are in breach of an ordinance.

You're missing the point, the club is the defendent and the complainant is not the homeowners, but, the municipality

Ciao

Pat

Yes, I understand the city took action, but the city represents its citizens and citizens did complain.  

I can't believe (but somehow it wouldn't surprise - that is how messed up the the US can get) non-compliance of an ordinance can be used as a pre-existing condition to enable the ordinance to lawfully not be complied with. That sounds totally whacky to me, but it is Florida and they can't even count ballots correctly.  The issue here is if an ordinance has been breached.  I would imagine to show selective enforcement the club will have to prove several incidents where others breached the ordinance and the city knew about of the breach and chose not enforce.  Even, then, I think its a hard argument to make.

For me, the trees are complete non-issue.  I don't buy that someone can protect a view from their home unless the neighbour is breaking a code.  Its strikes me as rather naive that something should think they have a right to a view from the time of purchase.  If the club chooses to plant trees and they are not in breach of a ordinance or whatever, thats fair enough.  That said, I always think it is good policy to consult neighbours before making any radical changes around a border.

Ciao  

[Don_Mahaffey]

Pat, Ben has already set me straight about a few things but I will add this in reply to you:
Obviously the Everest comment was me being a wise ass, I expected you to figure that out.

At the far lower end of the Coachella Valley, is the Salton sea. I think the Salton Sea is 200 below sea level or something like that. In La Quinta you can see the old sea level in the rocks.  Of course the sea levels change over eons of time, but here is my Mucci like comment, check your reading comprehension, I said La Quinta, not Palm Springs.

So its only humid in Miami when its really hot in the summer - June to October- OK, got that.  
I was just telling some friends at Streamsong that I liked GCAtlas because I no longer get into pissing contests. So much for that.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, Ben has already set me straight about a few things but I will add this in reply to you:
Obviously the Everest comment was me being a wise ass, I expected you to figure that out.

I did

At the far lower end of the Coachella Valley, is the Salton sea. I think the Salton Sea is 200 below sea level or something like that. In La Quinta you can see the old sea level in the rocks.  Of course the sea levels change over eons of time, but here is my Mucci like comment, check your reading comprehension, I said La Quinta, not Palm Springs.

Last time I played La Quinta it was in Palm Springs.



So its only humid in Miami when its really hot in the summer - June to October- OK, got that.  

I was just telling some friends at Streamsong that I liked GCAtlas because I no longer get into pissing contests. So much for that.

YOU made the decision to stick your nose in, be a wise ass and add your two cents.
In addition, you knew full well that it would elicit a response from me, so don't go whining as if you're an innocent victim.
You were a wise ass, by your own admission, so don't go complaining that you've been treated unfairly and that you "don't get into pissing contests". You were looking for a scrap and you got exactly what you were looking for, so stop whining

[Patrick_Mucci]

Yes, I understand the city took action, but the city represents its citizens and citizens did complain.  

Yes, but they complained about a situation that's existed for the entire 20 years they've been there, and there may not have complained about that same condition for those 20 years.

Doesn't that make you suspect of their motives ?

I can't believe (but somehow it wouldn't surprise - that is how messed up the the US can get) non-compliance of an ordinance can be used as a pre-existing condition to enable the ordinance to lawfully not be complied with.

That's NOT the issue.
"Selective Enforcement" is the issue and it's a legitimate issue.


That sounds totally whacky to me, but it is Florida and they can't even count ballots correctly.  

Actually they can and both the "New York Times" and SCOTUS agreed that they got the count right


The issue here is if an ordinance has been breached.  I would imagine to show selective enforcement the club will have to prove several incidents where others breached the ordinance and the city knew about of the breach and chose not enforce.  Even, then, I think its a hard argument to make.

You're incorrect as to what they have to show.
IF, as Trump Doral has indicated, scheduling/hours haven't changed, that's another factor.
Is there an intelligent person who doesn't think golf courses are maintained, primarily in the early morning?

For me, the trees are complete non-issue.  

Agree, and they may be at the root of the noise complaint.
In some counties hedges are subject to restrictions, but trees aren't

I don't buy that someone can protect a view from their home unless the neighbour is breaking a code.  Its strikes me as rather naive that something should think they have a right to a view from the time of purchase.  If the club chooses to plant trees and they are not in breach of a ordinance or whatever, thats fair enough.  That said, I always think it is good policy to consult neighbours before making any radical changes around a border.

I would disagree.

If your intent is to plant trees, do you think informing those affected, in advance, is going to enhance and hasten the tree planting process, or allow those whose property is adjacent to the golf course  to do something that might prevent you from planting your trees ?

As to the idea that the homeowners are innocent victims, I've seen numerous cases of homeowners coming onto club property and cutting down trees and shrubs on club property so that they can have a better view.

Trump didn't sell them their homes and he has no obligation to provide them with a golf course view


Ciao  

[William_G]

Pat, Ben has already set me straight about a few things but I will add this in reply to you:
Obviously the Everest comment was me being a wise ass, I expected you to figure that out.

I did

At the far lower end of the Coachella Valley, is the Salton sea. I think the Salton Sea is 200 below sea level or something like that. In La Quinta you can see the old sea level in the rocks.  Of course the sea levels change over eons of time, but here is my Mucci like comment, check your reading comprehension, I said La Quinta, not Palm Springs.

Last time I played La Quinta it was in Palm Springs.



So its only humid in Miami when its really hot in the summer - June to October- OK, got that.  

I was just telling some friends at Streamsong that I liked GCAtlas because I no longer get into pissing contests. So much for that.

YOU made the decision to stick your nose in, be a wise ass and add your two cents.
In addition, you knew full well that it would elicit a response from me, so don't go whining as if you're an innocent victim.
You were a wise ass, by your own admission, so don't go complaining that you've been treated unfairly and that you "don't get into pissing contests". You were looking for a scrap and you got exactly what you were looking for, so stop whining

is there a doctor in the house?

[Pat Burke]

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.ritakurtz.com/pages/palmdesert/images/CoachellaValleyMap1.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.ritakurtz.com/palmdesert/cvmap.do&h=404&w=539&sz=44&tbnid=Hjh77ivSy5iEnM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=120&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dcoachella%2Bvalley%2Bmap%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=coachella+valley+map&usg=__JmD9CzvcTFE6gxOosWfWwv8q6kU=&docid=cPPhYf1PqRTEyM&sa=X&ei=LNMOUfa2GqSE4gTDy4HIAQ&ved=0CDgQ9QEwAg&dur=783



Coachella valley map

[Bruce Katona]

I've made personal (work-related) dealings with the exact issues being discussed & know a bit about the situation at Doral, as it was used in a case study made to support another venue for potential PGA play, which is located on the flight line of a major airport.

On Point #1 - course maiteneance & noise ordinances. This exact issue came up at one of our assets during a proposal to moderately expand the clubhouse so the members could acually have a locker room.  tThe objecting party in the adjacent home owners association (course was there prior to the homes being built and in the Offering Plan the golf course was disclosed) continually represented the course was in violation of the local noise ordinance as the maintenance crew, especially in summer....yes we were.  The crew needs to get out prior to 1 st tee time to maintain the asset.  What did we do?  The schedule is kept as is, but the super altered his plan to begin daily work on parts of the course where there are no homes and he works around to the populated areas once commercial lawn activities can begin at 7 AM.  At 7:1, where do all the mowers fire up - under the complaining homeowners window....oops.

Point #2 - aircrfat noise, play & livability - I'm not an accoustic or aeronotical engineer, but mowers and aircraft are loud and if close enough may exceed acceptable DB levels.  Doral is very loud as it is close to the airport.

I fully agree there is something elsenot going on here.  As for flying the American flag, it does look pretty darn good at Bayonne.

[Howard Riefs]

An update on Donald, Doral, neighbors and trees....

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/doral/article2249674.html

[jeffwarne]

Shocker.....

Ethics aren't binding either, but you don't need a team of 100 lawyers to have them

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