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MCirba

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
« Reply #175 on: January 15, 2016, 04:02:35 PM »
Nice, Joe!   ;D

I suspected it was one of his "war effort" courses whose attributions and timing tended to get clouded over the years. 
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Bret Lawrence

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
« Reply #176 on: January 15, 2016, 04:18:39 PM »
Sven,


Great job putting all of this information together. 


Regarding Battle Creek, Michigan, I have seen an advertisement from Golf Illustrated-December 1919 that mentions Peterson, Sinclaire & Miller Inc. constructing the 18 hole course at Battle Creek.  The advertisement also notes the architect is Willie Park.


Willie Park also lists this course in his 1923 advertisement you posted above.





Bret

Bret Lawrence

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
« Reply #177 on: January 18, 2016, 09:12:27 AM »
Here is another Peterson, Sinclaire & Miller Inc. advertisement from November 1919, Golf Illustrated (listing Willie Park as architect):



There are several other ads from this company in the early 20's.  An ad from January 1920 Golf Illustrated shows the Princess Anne Country Club in Virginia Beach, Virginia.  A March 1920 Golf Illustrated advertisement shows construction on Atlantic City Country Club.


Willie Park is listed as the architect on a few of these advertisements.  Willie Park also shared the same address as Peterson, Sinclaire & Miller at 25 West 45th Street, NY, NY during this time period.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2016, 09:19:53 AM by Bret Lawrence »

MCirba

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
« Reply #178 on: January 18, 2016, 09:32:58 AM »
I just wanted to say that this is one of the very best threads in the history of GCA.

This type of collaborative, educational, informative and collegial research endeavor is a wonderful use of this site.   It's a joy to participate.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Bret Lawrence

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
« Reply #179 on: January 18, 2016, 09:36:11 AM »
An article from The Bridgeport times and evening farmer-May 24, 1919 notes some of the work planned by Park at Country Club of Atlantic City:



Bret Lawrence

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
« Reply #180 on: January 18, 2016, 09:45:48 AM »
Woodway Country Club-Darien, CT.  June 4, 1918 article from New-York Tribune:



Woodway C.C. will be hosting the 82nd Connecticut Open championship this year.

MCirba

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
« Reply #181 on: January 20, 2016, 02:35:31 PM »
From the periodical "Golf", (sent to me by Niall Carlton) from July 22, 1898.

"Willie Park has recently gone carefully over the ground at Gullane, over which a new course is proposed to be laid out."

Certainly no surprise there for the #2 course but would love to see any documentation related to the circa 1910 creation of course #3. 
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Anthony Gholz

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
« Reply #182 on: January 20, 2016, 08:18:26 PM »
Ben:
As discussed here is the Willie Park takeover of the (Royal) Ottawa course post war from Colt's design pre-war, possibly on another site.  From the Ottawa Journal  April 28, 1920.
Tony



Sven Nilsen

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
« Reply #183 on: January 21, 2016, 11:04:15 AM »
Just have a question about Rolland Road GC in MD. You say 'Rolling Road'. Is this correct, or is it 'Rolland'?


Scott asked the question above earlier in the thread.


Park worked on two courses in Baltimore, the first being Rolling Road GC in Catonsville.  That project started shortly after his return to the States in 1916, but it appears the course didn't open until a few years later.


The other course was the Roland Park course of the Baltimore CC (located in the area of Baltimore with that name).  Roland Park dates back to late 1896/early 1897 and was originally laid out by Willie Dunn.  As posted by Bret above, the Peterson, Sinclaire & Miller Ad suggests Park came in some time prior to Nov. 1919 (probably while working at Rolling Road GC) to reconstruct the course.


I haven't found much of anything in the press discussing the work done at Roland Park.  The Annual Guides suggest work having been done at some point, with the length of the course at 6,042 yards as reported in 1921 jumping to 6,289 yards in 1922.


Sven



"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Bret Lawrence

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
« Reply #184 on: January 21, 2016, 09:54:34 PM »
This article mentions Willie Park and Metacomet Golf Club:

The New York Times-September 14, 1919:













Bret Lawrence

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
« Reply #185 on: January 23, 2016, 08:59:04 AM »
A follow up to Metacomet:


Agawam Hunt purchased the lease on Metacomet's land in 1917.  Metacomet was given until April 1919 to find a new home. Willie Park was hired to build Metacomet's new course. 
In 1924 the course was completely redesigned by Donald Ross.  Here is an article from The New-York Telegram and Daily Mail dated October 1, 1924. This article may indicate the tie between Park and Ross working on so many of the same courses.  It appears that they may have shared the same construction company.





There is an announcement in several golf magazines in February 1920 that indicates Peterson, Sinclaire and Miller Inc. consolidated with Carters Tested Seeds as of January 1920. 

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
« Reply #186 on: January 24, 2016, 08:54:01 PM »
Bret:


Interesting find.


Ledgemont was also a Follett design.  It opened as a 9 hole course and at some point the name was changed to Ledgemont Valley CC.  In 1949 the course was sold to new owners when Ledgemont moved to Seekonk, MA.  The name was changed to Valley CC (which still exists) and the course was expanded to 18 holes by Geoffrey Cornish in the 1960's.


Carter's and the other seed merchants were major players in who did what where, and I don't think we know enough about the various alignments that were in place between the companies and the architects.


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
« Reply #187 on: January 24, 2016, 10:03:56 PM »
Here's an example of some of the projects Carter's had in the works in 1922 with the architects for each noted.

Saucon Valley CC - Herbert Strong
Green Valley CC - Willie Park
East Liverpool CC - Willie Park
Ottawa Hunt and Motor Club - Willie Park
Lakeview GC - Herbert Strong
Guyan CC - Herbert Strong
Battle Creek CC - Willie Park
Royal Montreal GC - Willie Park
Linwood CC - Herbert Strong
Moon Brook CC - Willie Park
Westbrook CC - Donald Ross
Hudson River CC - Donald Ross and Willie Tucker
Wildwood GC - Stiles & Van Kleek
North Hills CC - Stiles & Van Kleek
Philmont CC - Willie Park
Youghiogheny CC - Willie Park
New Thornburg Club (Chartiers CC) - Willie Park

St. Louis Post-Dispatch June 11, 1922

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
« Reply #188 on: January 26, 2016, 10:48:47 AM »
In an older thread on Princess Anne it was noted that there was at least one article noting the course had been laid out by Donald Ross.  Here's an advertisement from the June 13, 1926 edition of the Brooklyn Daily Eagle making the same statement.  Perhaps a mistake, perhaps not and Ross did actually do some work subsequent to the initial construction to which Park contributed.

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

BCowan

Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
« Reply #189 on: January 26, 2016, 11:13:56 AM »
I presume you are referring to the Virginia Beach course?  If so, I just removed it.

Baltimore CC (Roland Park course)- Was this the West course NLE or is a Cupp course post fire? 
« Last Edit: January 26, 2016, 11:28:34 AM by Ben Cowan (Michigan) »

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
« Reply #190 on: January 26, 2016, 05:49:40 PM »
Why would you remove Princess Anne?  Nothing in my post said Park didn't work there.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2016, 11:58:42 PM by Sven Nilsen »
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Bret Lawrence

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
« Reply #191 on: January 27, 2016, 09:20:34 AM »
Ben,


The Roland Park course was located several miles south of the Five Farms site. Up until the mid 1920's, Roland Park was the only course Baltimore CC owned.  The East course at Five Farms (designed by Tillinghast) was opened in 1926. 


The Roland Park course was closed in 1962, when all the land west of Route 25 was sold.  This same year the West course at Baltimore CC was opened.  Baltimore CC still owns the Club House in Roland Park today.  If you look on an aerial you can still make out a few holes east of Route 25.


Bret

BCowan

Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
« Reply #192 on: January 27, 2016, 09:51:32 AM »
Bret,

  Thank you, I noted it in opening post.

Ben

Bret Lawrence

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
« Reply #193 on: January 27, 2016, 10:37:42 AM »
Sven:


I agree that we don't know enough about the relationships with the seed companies, construction companies and architects.  However, I do think it is apparent that Willie Park was tied to Peterson, Sinclaire and Miller Inc. in 1919-1920, then Carters Tested Seeds after the two companies merged in January 1920.  I understand that other architects were also associated with these companies.


One more potential tie to these companies or courses is Al Williams, who was noted as the superintendent of construction in the Woodway article posted earlier.  A 1923 advertisement for Al Williams lists several courses for reference purposes.  The list includes Hartford Golf Club, Woodway CC, Maplewood Field Club-Maplewood, NJ, Atlantic City CC, Princess Anne CC-Norfolk, VA, Linwood CC-Linwood, NJ, and Canterbury CC-Cleveland, Ohio


Linwood and Canterbury were Herbert Stong designs.  Woodway, Atlantic City and presumably Princess Anne were Willie Park designs and Hartford Golf Club was designed and supervised by Al Williams in 1915-1916 (prior to Emmet or Ross showing up).  The Maplewood Field Club is the only course listed which I could not find an attribution for.


I don't have a lot of background information on Al Wiliams, but he seems to have been somehow associated with Carters Seeds and/or Peterson, Sinclaire and Miller, Inc.  Williams specialty was greens keeping and he studied for several years under Peter Lees, before he came to America.


Bret

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
« Reply #194 on: January 27, 2016, 12:45:04 PM »
Bret:


Just to be clear, there is no doubt in my mind that Park was associated with Peterson Sinclaire and subsequently Carter's.  It sounds like they had a group of architects they funneled jobs to, perhaps based on club budgets, location, or simply timing.


I suspect Willie Tucker was also involved in much the same role as Al Williams.  The big surprise for me was to see Stiles & Van Kleek tied in to the extent they were.


Maplewood Field Club (aka Maplewood CC) was an Al Williams plan according to an Aug. 22, 1922 The Sun article.


Sven



"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
« Reply #195 on: January 27, 2016, 12:50:42 PM »
Bret:


Here's the 1923 Al Williams Ad you noted:





As you noted, the list seems to include construction and design jobs.


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Bret Lawrence

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
« Reply #196 on: January 28, 2016, 12:23:08 PM »
Sven:


Thanks for the information on Maplewood and posting the Al Williams ad.


I was also surprised to see Stiles and Van Kleek on the ad you posted.  I have seen Strong, Ross, Park and even Fowler courses featured in some of their ads, but not Stiles & Van Kleek. Interesting find.


Madison Country Club, Madison, CT:
I have an article from the Hartford Courant that mentions Madison Country Club opening a new nine hole course on July 3, 1919.  The article does not name an architect or give a description of the golf course. 


The Golf Guides prior to 1922 describe a 9 hole course, 2,500, yards established in 1899. The Golf Guide of 1922 describes a course of 9 holes 3,058 yards.  At the bottom, there is a note that a new course has opened, sea side. Every guide after 1922 notes a year of establishment as 1919.  I think if Willie Park built 9 holes at Madison it would have been in 1918-1919.  I have yet to find an article to prove this, but the club certainly believes he was there at some point.  The club history also mentions Orrin Smith building the back nine in the late 20's.


Bret






Mungo Park

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
« Reply #197 on: January 31, 2016, 06:39:25 PM »
Sven, and all,
First, I have to echo Mike Cirba's comments. This is a fantastic collaborative thread. I have always been slightly nervous of holding such a public conversation, but I am learning so much useful information. It is great - thanks.

Sven - great time line and cuttings and much else besides - where to start?
Your assumption about 1900 - 1919 courses is correct. They should probably all fall within the 1916 - 1919 bracket. WP wasn't there between August 1896 and 14th April 1916. He first went in March 1895 - July 1895 (exhibition matches with Willie Dunn, time at Astors etc) and then he did have a second visit in 1896 (March to July), which is when he took my grandad (Mungo Jnr) over with him to run the ill-fated shop - and did Shelburne Farms course. He was not there in 1894 so the Harper's 1900 ref is incorrect, although their 1901 is good.

I have set about tidying up the list and will post it (assuming my competence stretches that far) as soon as it is done. Princess Anne looks solid with that reference, but there are still one or two queries, which I hope the combined minds of everyone involved can un-ravel for me.
They are as follows: -
  • Do we know where St Louis AAA aka Triple-A CC comes from - if not I think it should be deleted?
  • Philmont - are there two courses - Philmont Country Club and Philmont CC (North) - if so, are they both by WP?
  • I have added Shorehaven, Pemberbrook, Newport RI.
  • Do you or anyone else know any more about Reidsville and the 'Unnamed course in Meridian"?
  • I have deleted Canton MA, as I am assuming that this is the same as Hoosie-Whisick (also in Canton MA). Is this correct?
  • I have 3 club names in Detroit - The Automobile Club, Orchard Lake, and Pine Lake. Are they all the same, or are there more than one that WP was involved in?
Lastly the discussion about Peterson, Sinclaire & Miller is a most interesting vein, particularly as Willie Park and they seemed to share offices. That's a real nugget. I also noticed (Bret's post) that an Arthur D Peterson was President of Carter's Tested Seeds. Carters and PS&M consolidated in January 1920. From the web, Arthur D Peterson Inc. appears later in the "Market Place and Buyers Guide" of 1929, under 'Seed', and then again in Sept 1930 and February 1931, where they are selling Fertilizers, Golf equipment, Hose and 'Brown Patch Control'. I wonder what happened to them in the Great Depression?

I am sure I have read, probably in Adams, of whole trainloads of equipment and materials being hired, under the project management of the seed merchants and Willie Park to arrive at a railhead at the start of the contract. It would be fascinating to know more about the structure of these contracts and how they were set up. I have a copy of a spec. for Tynemouth GC, which makes interesting reading, and is very similar in many respects to the way construction contracts are set up over here now.
Thanks to all for a thoroughly informative thread - Bret for confirmation of Highland, Joe for nailing Glen Ridge, Mike for all the Peterson stuff, Niall on Glasgow clarification, Ben and Sven for kicking it all off etc. I am sure the protocol is not to thank everyone, but it is such a productive collaboration, and I am most grateful for it.

On Jan 12th, (before we went on holiday - hence silence), I said that nothing had been found to link Cambridge University GC to WP. Continued delving by Mike Morrison has revealed that he was involved at Coldham Common (as well as Gog Magog) - but until this is checked and verified, I shall hold off putting it on the list.
One last query - Niall mentioned 2 courses in Vienna - I only know of the one on the Prater. Is there another?

Mungo

BCowan

Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
« Reply #198 on: January 31, 2016, 06:44:18 PM »
I have 3 club names in Detroit - The Automobile Club, Orchard Lake, and Pine Lake. Are they all the same, or are there more than one that WP was involved in?

Mungo,

   Automobile Club was a 9 hole WPJ course that later became Pine Lake CC and completely re-designed.  There isn't any Park Jr left or very little left at Pine Lake to my knowledge.  Orchard Lake is an Alison course. 
« Last Edit: January 31, 2016, 08:11:18 PM by Ben Cowan (Michigan) »

Anthony Gholz

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)
« Reply #199 on: January 31, 2016, 08:10:32 PM »
Mungo/Ben:


Detroit Free Press July 3, 1938 history of Pine Lake from the Automobile Club:
see also my earlier post back a page regarding the first 9 holes by WP



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