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Dan Kelly

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
« Reply #50 on: September 03, 2014, 01:45:17 PM »
I haven't seen anyone mention Interlachen CC.

Park did some work there, I think.

Rick Shefchik ("From Fields to Fairways: Classic Golf Clubs of Minnesota") could tell you more.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2014, 01:47:26 PM by Dan Kelly »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
« Reply #51 on: September 03, 2014, 02:08:14 PM »
Dan:

Wasn't Interlachen William Watson?

Sven
« Last Edit: January 22, 2016, 08:05:18 PM by Sven Nilsen »
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

DMoriarty

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
« Reply #52 on: September 03, 2014, 06:34:53 PM »
David:

There is nothing dispositive either way, nor on the extent of his work.  My preference for a comprehensive listing would be to note Park's visit with the disclaimer that it is unclear what exactly he did.  That is how I have it in my files.

Sven

For your files (or mine) that makes sense, but my inclination for a list such as being created in this thread would be to leave the course off unless something tangible actually links Willie Park Jr. to some work which was actually performed on the ground.

Given that the routing was roughly the same before Park's involvement and after, it sure doesn't seem like we ought to be calling this a Park course.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
« Reply #53 on: September 03, 2014, 07:03:33 PM »
David:

There is nothing dispositive either way, nor on the extent of his work.  My preference for a comprehensive listing would be to note Park's visit with the disclaimer that it is unclear what exactly he did.  That is how I have it in my files.

Sven

For your files (or mine) that makes sense, but my inclination for a list such as being created in this thread would be to leave the course off unless something tangible actually links Willie Park Jr. to some work which was actually performed on the ground.

Given that the routing was roughly the same before Park's involvement and after, it sure doesn't seem like we ought to be calling this a Park course.

David:

I think the same might hold true for quite a few courses on this list.  Part of the reason I think its better to err on the side of completeness, rather than just throwing a name and a course out on the web.

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Dan Kelly

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
« Reply #54 on: September 04, 2014, 07:05:04 AM »
Dan:

Wasn't Interlachen Willie Watson?

Sven

Yes. And then Ross. I thought Willie Park played a role, too, but apparently I was wrong.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

archie_struthers

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
« Reply #55 on: September 04, 2014, 08:40:55 AM »
 ;D :D

I'm particularly intrigued with Park's use of false fronts do defend par .  At Greate Bay ( originally Somers Point -Ocean City GC ). He used them very effectively .  Many of them are small in stature but have lots of impact , notably  on what are now our tenth and seventeenth holes. The 17 th is really ,really well done, particularly because a good drive leaves you on a slightly down hill lie , making it harder to flight the ball just right .

Whenever you see a well done false front , think Willie Park , Jr.


Niall Hay

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
« Reply #56 on: September 04, 2014, 08:45:07 AM »

Automobile CC, Detroit, MI - Same as Pine Lake CC.


When did this name change happen? Any more detail?

Niall Hay

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
« Reply #57 on: September 04, 2014, 08:47:24 AM »

Automobile CC, Detroit, MI - Same as Pine Lake CC.


When did this name change happen? Any more detail?

Found it, "In 1921, we had officially become Pine Lake Country Club, recognizing the change from an automobile club to a country club spectrum of interests."

http://pinelakecc.com/

Tom Kelly

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
« Reply #58 on: September 04, 2014, 10:16:40 AM »
Whenever you see a well done false front , think Willie Park , Jr.

Interesting that you should say this, whenever I see a good false front I always think of Colt.

I wonder whether the Sunningdale connection has anything to do with this?

Adam Lawrence

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
« Reply #59 on: September 04, 2014, 10:17:53 AM »
Whenever you see a well done false front , think Willie Park , Jr.

Interesting that you should say this, whenever I see a good false front I always think of Colt.

I wonder whether the Sunningdale connection has anything to do with this?

Me too, because of Colt's fondness for using natural high spots to locate his greens.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
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Ben Hollerbach

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
« Reply #60 on: September 04, 2014, 10:35:55 AM »
The present day Country Club of Asheville was purchased by the club around 1976. Prior to the purchase Beaver Lake golf course was in bad shape and much of the funding CCA acquired from the sale of the original course was used to rebuild the course as well as build a new clubhouse on its original location. Beaver Lake, Originally known as Lakeview Park, was built in connection to the Lakeview Park neighborhood that surrounds and borders the west part of the course. Donald ross built the course around 1927-28 with the plan for the clubhouse to be placed at its current location but up until 1976 the clubhouse was found across Merrimon Ave. and the current 4th hole played as the first. There is evidence to suggest that prior to Ross there was a nine hole course that played up the river valley where the current 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th holes preside and I've seen notes on maps as early as 1917 that suggest the existence golf in this area. If true I believe this would be the location for the possible Parks course.

The Grove Park Inn course history is more straightforward with the expansion of the Swannanoa Country Club into golf beginning with a basic golf course at the location of their hunt club. As golf gained popularity amongst the members golf was moved to the current property and the name was changed to the Asheville Country Club, a full 18 hole course was completed around 1905. Donald Ross was brought in to improve the course in 1913 but it does not appear he did a significant amount of work to alter the original layout. Much of the layout changes were in response to a clubhouse fire in the 20's and the expansion of the hotel in the 80's.  The clubs name was changed again in the mid '40s to Country Club of Asheville and the course was sold to the Grove Park Inn in 1976.

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
« Reply #61 on: September 04, 2014, 03:33:00 PM »
Ben:

Curious as to your sources on the GPI info you posted, please let me know.  I have not seen anything discussing Ross being involved prior to the 20's.  MacWood's research was pretty sound on Barker's work around 1911.

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

James Brown

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
« Reply #62 on: September 04, 2014, 11:33:16 PM »
Penn State White Course is a Willie Park Jr. original.  (It's profiled on the commentary part of the site)

Sean_A

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
« Reply #63 on: September 05, 2014, 03:47:35 AM »
;D :D

I'm particularly intrigued with Park's use of false fronts do defend par .  At Greate Bay ( originally Somers Point -Ocean City GC ). He used them very effectively .  Many of them are small in stature but have lots of impact , notably  on what are now our tenth and seventeenth holes. The 17 th is really ,really well done, particularly because a good drive leaves you on a slightly down hill lie , making it harder to flight the ball just right .

Whenever you see a well done false front , think Willie Park , Jr.



Interesting, whenever I play Park Jr courses I am intrigued by the many front to back greens.  Do the American examples have many front to backers?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2022: Bamburgh Castle, Erewash, Gullane 2, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South & Crystal Downs

BCowan

Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
« Reply #64 on: September 05, 2014, 08:56:57 AM »
Thanks for all the posts, I will try and update this list this weekend.  I tried to break them down by region/country, I am sure I put some in the wrong place (apologies). 

Ben Hollerbach

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
« Reply #65 on: September 05, 2014, 03:37:26 PM »
Ben:

Curious as to your sources on the GPI info you posted, please let me know.  I have not seen anything discussing Ross being involved prior to the 20's.  MacWood's research was pretty sound on Barker's work around 1911.

Sven

Sven,

I've looked through my notes on Grove Park and CCA and I unfortunately can't locate where that date came from. It is something I had remembered and my guess is its a retained date from the CCA history in the past. With as much work as Ross did in western NC in the 20's it would make the most sense that his work at Grove Park would have been around 1923 rather than 1913. As I mentioned before, Ross's work at Grove Park was minimal. Odds are much of his modern day credit to the course is probably heavily clouded in the name change of the 40's and the sale of the 70's.  At this point there are very few members left from when the club played on the original course and I don't believe many records have been retained dating back that far.

BCowan

Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
« Reply #66 on: September 13, 2014, 11:27:45 AM »
To avoid any confusion, many of the US courses Scott provided as additions have been noted elsewhere in this thread:

USA

Alton Beach Country Club, Miami, FL - this is the same as the Miami Beach CC Bayshore Course.
Asheville Country Club, Asheville, NC - this is the same as Grove Park Inn.
Automobile CC, Detroit, MI - Same as Pine Lake CC.
Country Club of Atlantic City, Northfield, NJ - Same as Atlantic City CC.
Hoosie-Whisick Club, Canton, MA - Same as Milton-Hoosic Club.
New Bedford Country Club, New Bedford, MA - Same as CC of New Bedford.
New Canaan Country Club, New Canaan, CI - Same as CC of New Canaan.
Ocean City Country Club, Ocean City, NJ - Same as Greate Bay CC.
State College, State College, PA - Same as Blue and Nittany courses at Penn State.

I have some questions regarding some of the other listings:

Baltimore Country Club, Baltimore, MD - Attributed to Willie Dunn.
Defiance Country Club, Defiance, OH - Attributed to Bendelow, would like more information to clear this up.
Metacomet Golf Club, East Providence, RI - Pretty sure this is a confusion with Agawam, which was originally designed by Park.  The members of Agawam purchased the Metacomet course in the 20's, which I understand was built by Ross.

Defiance Country Club, Defiance, OH - Attributed to Bendelow, would like more information to clear this up.

I used to play an annual Jr. tourney at this course.  I don't think it was a park course, the front nine possibly for the back 9 i think is post golden age.  The course is now semi-private and called Eagle Rock.  http://www.golfeaglerock.com/


Chris_Blakely

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
« Reply #67 on: September 13, 2014, 02:06:36 PM »
To avoid any confusion, many of the US courses Scott provided as additions have been noted elsewhere in this thread:

USA

Alton Beach Country Club, Miami, FL - this is the same as the Miami Beach CC Bayshore Course.
Asheville Country Club, Asheville, NC - this is the same as Grove Park Inn.
Automobile CC, Detroit, MI - Same as Pine Lake CC.
Country Club of Atlantic City, Northfield, NJ - Same as Atlantic City CC.
Hoosie-Whisick Club, Canton, MA - Same as Milton-Hoosic Club.
New Bedford Country Club, New Bedford, MA - Same as CC of New Bedford.
New Canaan Country Club, New Canaan, CI - Same as CC of New Canaan.
Ocean City Country Club, Ocean City, NJ - Same as Greate Bay CC.
State College, State College, PA - Same as Blue and Nittany courses at Penn State.

I have some questions regarding some of the other listings:

Baltimore Country Club, Baltimore, MD - Attributed to Willie Dunn.
Defiance Country Club, Defiance, OH - Attributed to Bendelow, would like more information to clear this up.
Metacomet Golf Club, East Providence, RI - Pretty sure this is a confusion with Agawam, which was originally designed by Park.  The members of Agawam purchased the Metacomet course in the 20's, which I understand was built by Ross.

Defiance Country Club, Defiance, OH - Attributed to Bendelow, would like more information to clear this up.

I used to play an annual Jr. tourney at this course.  I don't think it was a park course, the front nine possibly for the back 9 i think is post golden age.  The course is now semi-private and called Eagle Rock.  http://www.golfeaglerock.com/



Eagle rock's front 9 is Bendelow and the back nine was added in the 80s.


DMoriarty

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
« Reply #68 on: September 14, 2014, 01:47:47 PM »
Here is a Grove Park Inn picture from 1920:

Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Rick Shefchik

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
« Reply #69 on: September 14, 2014, 11:52:50 PM »
Dan:

Wasn't Interlachen Willie Watson?

Sven

Yes. And then Ross. I thought Willie Park played a role, too, but apparently I was wrong.

No Willie Park involvement at Interlachen. He did the initial layout work at Minneapolis GC in the fall of 1916, but did not return the following spring to finish the job. William Clark probably should get partial credit for MGC's first routing, as he finished the course after becoming the club's first head pro, and Park never claimed credit for it. Ross did the redesign in 1921.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
« Reply #70 on: September 22, 2014, 08:16:57 PM »
Add Abington Club, oak Old York Road CC, as a Park.  He did some work to the course in 1920, post the original Lang 9 holes and Tillie's involvement around 1917/18.

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
« Reply #71 on: September 23, 2014, 01:38:14 PM »
One more possibility for the list.  The April 8, 1922 edition of The American Golfer has this blurb about Mill Creek in Youngstown, OH:

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
« Reply #72 on: September 23, 2014, 01:44:24 PM »
And another notation from the March 1920 edition of Golf Illustrated that suggests that in addition to the Bay Shore course at Miami Beach (aka Alton Beach), Park also laid out the Flamingo course:

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
« Reply #73 on: September 23, 2014, 06:05:38 PM »
We might be able to add the NLE 3rd course at OFCC to the list.  The course, thought to have been originally laid out by Willie Watson, is discussed in a bit of detail in this May 1919 The American Golfer piece:

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Willie Park Jr (Course Listings)
« Reply #74 on: December 28, 2014, 01:11:22 PM »
The Grove Park Inn course history is more straightforward with the expansion of the Swannanoa Country Club into golf beginning with a basic golf course at the location of their hunt club. As golf gained popularity amongst the members golf was moved to the current property and the name was changed to the Asheville Country Club, a full 18 hole course was completed around 1905. Donald Ross was brought in to improve the course in 1913 but it does not appear he did a significant amount of work to alter the original layout. Much of the layout changes were in response to a clubhouse fire in the 20's and the expansion of the hotel in the 80's.  The clubs name was changed again in the mid '40s to Country Club of Asheville and the course was sold to the Grove Park Inn in 1976.

Not sure if the following Jan. 1909 Golf Magazine article gets us any closer to figuring out who did what at Asheville CC (today's Grove Park Inn), but it does give us some benchmarks.

From the article, the original Swannanoa course essentially went out of existence in 1907, and was replaced by a new 9 hole course owned by the Asheville CC that covered some of the land occupied by the old course. 

The reports that Barker came in around 1911-12 to extend the course to 18 holes make sense with this timeline.  Still looking for confirmation of any involvement by Park and exactly when Ross was involved.

I've included three plans of the course as well, the first two being the old Swannano course (from the Feb. 1899 Golf Magazine and the Dec. 1904 Golfers Magazine) and the stick routing of the 18 hole Asheville CC course from some time after Barker's involvement.







"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

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