[Sven Nilsen]

The following article is taken from the July 1915 edition of Golfers Magazine.  It highlights the CC of Detroit, this being the version attributed to Colt in 1911 (the course was later abandoned when the club moved to a newer Alison design in the '20's).

This is the first mention I've seen of Ross working at CC of Detroit.  Unlike their only real collaboration at Old Elm, where they walked the grounds together in coming up with the plan, here it seems like Ross was brought in to add a bit of a spit shine on Colt's original thoughts.

[Sven Nilsen]

Dave:

When the evidence is put out there, I'll believe it.  The record is pretty clear on Old Elm.  If you prefer to call it a "documented" collaboration, that's fine with me.

Sven

[Tom_Doak]

Sven:

That's the first mention I've seen of Ross being involved at the Country Club of Detroit.

Whatever he did do, prior to 1915, it was changed considerably again in the early 1920's by Hugh Alison who came back as Colt's associate when the club sold off some of its property going toward the lake, and reconfigured the course to its present layout.  I believe a few of the holes on today's front nine [and maybe a couple on the club's third nine] were part of the original layout, but the numbers are all different.

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven:

That's the first mention I've seen of Ross being involved at the Country Club of Detroit.

Whatever he did do, prior to 1915, it was changed considerably again in the early 1920's by Hugh Alison who came back as Colt's associate when the club sold off some of its property going toward the lake, and reconfigured the course to its present layout.  I believe a few of the holes on today's front nine [and maybe a couple on the club's third nine] were part of the original layout, but the numbers are all different.

Tom:

All reports I've seen are that the Colt/Ross course was completely abandoned (as I noted in the OP), and that the Alison course was on a different parcel of land.  MacWood covered this in a bit of detail in a number of old threads.  If I can find anything that confirms that to be the case, I'll post it here.

Sven

[Sven Nilsen]

Dave:

Funny thing is, you're the one espousing a belief without any proof.  I'm not saying they didn't, I'm just saying I haven't seen the evidence. 

Do me a favor and start your own thread if you want to talk about Exmoor.  This one is about CC of Detroit.

Here's the 1915 Course Map courtesy of Joe Bausch:

[Anthony Gholz]

Sven/Tom:  

I'm currently updating a list of C&A courses in North America that I've been working on for the past couple years.  I'm not ready for a gca post quite yet, but it's clear to me that the Alison course designed for the CCD in 1926 and opened in 1927 is a totally new course.  True, part of the Alison course is on property that included some of the area of Colt's course, that lying between the clubhouse (both former and current) and Provencal and between Kercheval and Chalfonte, the former Black Marsh Ditch.  The Alison course also includes all the area from the clubhouse to Moross Road that was not part of the club's property in 1913 thru 1925.   I recently overlaid the NY Sun layout for the 1915 AM (prior GCA post) with today's Google Earth and none of the hole corridors or green sites align, with the possible exception that the current practice green may be the site of the original Colt 18th green.

Colt's holes 6 thru 13 were either in the area west of Black Marsh Ditch, today's Chalfonte, or crossed the ditch into the area of the houses now existing at the Chalfonte end of the course.  That's 8 holes from Colt gone.  The area between the clubhouse (today's ch and the "golf pavilion" in 1913") and Moross Road include all or parts of the current Alison holes 6 thru 12 and 14 and 15.  That's 9 holes on property that Colt didn't have to work with.  It appears that today's 1 thru 5, 13, and 16 thru 18 are actually on property that was part of both courses.  Again the best I can tell, there is no complete hole routing or green site from both courses that overlaps, only parts of certain fairways and those are from different playing angles.

I am currently reading a "History of the CCD" manuscript (probably written c.1960) that I found at the USGA Library last week and interestingly to me it says that the "Colt & Allison (sic) plans approved by the BOD April 1926" noted that "plans for a nine-hole course inside the new 18-hole layout were also approved…"  Tom would know, but could you put 9 holes in the area of the tennis course, polo field, and maintenance shed and woods?  Or maybe RTJ SR found the right solution.  Additionally, in partial answer to a question from a previous question as to why the CCD thru out a 6400 yard plus Colt course worthy of a National Championship for a new course by his partner:  the history I'm reading suggests that the Wayne County Road Commission was considering a road thru the course either in line with the Black marsh Ditch (Chalfonte) or, even worse, Charlevoix which would have cut thru the property where the tennis course are now.  So the club was also looking to ward off a potential future problem that did occur on the mid 20s.  At Port Huron Golf Club (see my IMO post) we lost two Alison holes to the St Clair County Road commission in 1950.  Not quite as bad as the CCD could have been.

As I continue researching this interesting situation where Colt and Alison did separate courses for the same club at different times, I'll keep looking for clues of this Ross tidbit.  So far I've seen nothing except what Sven just posted.

Anthony

[Anthony Gholz]

Sven:

Thanks for posting Joe's NY Sun course map.  You're a lot faster on the computer than I am.  Now everyone can do there own overlap, just as long as they know which way is north!

Anthony

[Jim_Kennedy]

Another mention:

[Jim_Kennedy]

http://tinyurl.com/lvnxb6a

This article gives an accounting of the holes and also mentions:
 
Among these changes are several new traps, which have necessitated a pulling-in of the fairways as a result. The greens are now in the best possible condition. Some of these changes were made at the suggestion of Eben Byers, Jack Neville, W. C. Fownes Jr., Ernie Armstrong, Chick Evans and Joe Bole, and it will be interesting to note what these contestants will think of the innovations which they, as previous players, are responsible for instituting.

[Jim_Kennedy]

And at the risk of throwing a fly in the ointment, I post this: 

[Jim_Kennedy]

.

[Bill Hyde]

Oh boy...now we may definitely need a three panel scorecard to list all the architects that have touched our club. Is it possible Ross was the Rees Jones of his day brought in to doctor the course? Definitely the first mention I've seen of his name at CCD. BTW, the original 2nd green of the Colt layout is the 8th green of our short course. Also, we have preserved the original 18th tees as a feature in our new short game area...so there are a few remnants of the original, but that's about it. We are an Alison course with many contributors since...RTJ, RTJ Jr., Foster and Doak.

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