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Jimmy Chandler

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Re: Streamsong Blue is Better Than Streamsong Red
« Reply #25 on: August 13, 2014, 01:13:51 AM »
I prefer Red.  Hole by hole the courses come about even with Red 3 up after 9 and Blue evening it out on the back.  I prefer Blue tee to green but Red once you get there. 

Jason --

Is it that you prefer C&C style greens in general to Doaks (e.g., less wild undulations) or just Streamsong Red's? It's interesting to me because I think I prefer Red tee-to-green and Blue's greens.

IIRC you prefer Kinloch over Ballyhack, which is some ways I see as a parallel to the differences between SS Red and Blue.

Kevin_D

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Re: Streamsong Blue is Better Than Streamsong Red
« Reply #26 on: August 13, 2014, 09:08:15 AM »

Wow, everyone is in agreement?  :o

I guess put me down for a "disagree" then (especially if "by a significant margin").

My reasons:
- Greens: I go the exact opposite way - for the most part, I prefer subtle, and what some call "bold" on Blue, others might call "tricked up"
- Due to its angle of fairways and presence of hazards (sand and water), Red provides more "risk/reward" shots off the tee than Blue
- As to all that water on Red?  You need to hit a REALLY bad tee shot for it to come into play on most of the holes.  I say this as someone who is not a very precise driver of the golf ball  
- Routing: while #7 is a great hole and is fantastic looking, the routing on Blue has to be dinged due to the fact that you need to walk back along that bridge, practically back to the tee.  I seem to recall a long walk from #16 Blue to #17 tee as well.
- Speaking of best holes, #16 might be the best Biarritz anywhere
- Finish: as much as I like #18 Blue, the short par 5 #18 on Red is an amazing match play hole and terrific finisher

Bottom line: I loved both courses, but after 2 trips now and ~3-4 rounds on each, I would give the nod to Red over Blue.

OK, with that you can all go back to your sucking up  ;D

Kevin,

I did enjoy the finisher at the Red (particularly the green, which is one of the boldest on the course), but I found the 18th at Blue much more thrilling because of the variety of shots you could hit into that green. Also, less related to the architecture, I preferred the setting of 18 Blue, which plunges through the gap in the dunes toward the clubhouse, to 18 Red, which is isolated and gives off a feel of "what, this is 18?".

I don't have a huge problem with the walk over the bridge on 7, especially since you are taking in some of the most unique golf landforms with which I'm familiar along the way. I agree that it isn't ideal, but it doesn't take major points away in my book.

Come on.  7 is a great hole, but if you're making a big deal about the routing, you can't ignore the awkward walk back and bottleneck that occurs as a result

I enjoy the Blue routing more because of its constant change in direction, which is especially effective on a course where wind is everything.

??? Holes 10-14 essentially play in the same direction.  Every time I have played there, it has been dead into a severe wind.  Maybe I was just unlucky, but that made this stretch just too brutal for me (especially 11), and a little monotonous.   Not sure how you think it's a "constant change?"

In general, I prefer a routing with a few jogs between holes but constant change of direction to a routing that has all tees close to greens but runs in a circle or line. Red doesn't make a perfect circle necessary, but the positioning of the holes gives it a feel of aloofness that is a bit of a turnoff for me.

I think risk/reward is a quality that's broad and difficult to define, but I'll try to list some holes on the Blue where "risk/reward" is abundant:


While I think Blue is terrific, I take some issue with your "risk/reward" assessment:

1. Take on the green side bunkers with driver.

Unless you are HUGE with wind behind, you're not hitting this green.  In fact, if wind is coming across, with the elevated tee, I am just happy to be in the fairway.  It's a wedge in then so not much "reward" for any risk

2. Gamble with the bunker and scrub on the right to catch the turbo boost.

ok

3. Hug the water to get the shorter approach to the green (particularly from the back decks).

That's a lot of risk for little reward.  And there's no penalty for staying well clear of water

4. Hug the bad country left to shorten an otherwise daunting approach.

ok. great hole


6. Driver will risk finding that gnarly fairway bunker 50 yards short, but it could also find the green.

again, only true if you're huge with wind behind.  I see this more of a choice of which side of the bunker you go for.

9. Hug the bunkers right for a chance at the green in two (applies to big hitters only)

this will not apply to 99%+ of golfers.  that said, I love the tee shot on this hole over the bunkers.  reminds me of stonewall north #3


11. Thread the needle left to shorten the approach.

you mean so you can hit 3 wood coming in instead of driver off the deck?  ;) I am confused about all the complaints about #1 on Red but none on this one.  With wind in the face this isn't a half par hole - it's a 5

13. Pull out the big gun and drive the green, or find all sorts of trouble along the way.

ok. great hole.  and yes it has suckered me in pretty much every time

14. Classic diagonal tee shots to start a short par five.

ding ding ding!!!  this is EXACTLY what I like about many holes on Red - the angled fairway

17. All about the carry on second shot.

It provides a very interesting 2nd shot on a par 5, but I wouldn't call it "risk/reward".  If you can comfortably clear the bunkers with your 2nd shot, you do it.  If you can't, you don't.


The other non-par-three holes (8, 12, 15, and 18) carry plenty of drama not otherwise related to "risk/reward" characteristics. Do you think Red has more thrills than this? I can think of plenty of holes on the Red (1, 3, 10, and 12 come to mind immediately) where this is limited risk/reward tradeoff. But unlike the holes listed on the Blue, which still carry plenty of width to allow freedom and creativity, these non-RR holes on the Red are more penal, asking the golfer to buckle down and hit some fairways. It's not the worst type of golf in the world, but I'm much more inspired by what I see at the Blue.

As I said before, I love the Biarritz at 16 Red, but I don't think it's quite long enough. I'll take 9 at Yale, or even 3 at Hackensack, because it calls for a 3-wood instead of a long iron.

I think the greens are more of a personal call than anything. I've always lusted for big contours in my greens, but some guys don't dig that. ;)

Final note on Blue: holes 10-14 essentially play in the same direction.  Every time I have played there, it has been dead into a severe wind.  Maybe I was just unlucky, but that made this stretch just too brutal for me (especially 11), and a little monotonous.

Now to Red:
1. The much maligned 1st hole is no "gentle handshake" - but it gets the blood pumping.  Taking the right side gives you a better approach
2. classic angled fairway - can take a more aggressive line flirting with water, or may need to take less than driver or may end up in sand.  great short par 5
3. another angled fairway, this time on a short par 4 - can take driver and have wedge in, or play safe and have a mid iron
4. a truly driveable par 4, yet with a bold (but not over the top) green
5. angled fairway
7. angled fairway with an amazing visual off the tee.  reminds me of the 6th at Friar's Head
9. go for green or lay up
10. not risk/reward hole...but has a subtly tricky green
11. go right of center line bunkers for easier approach or safer play short/left?
12. tough, long par 4 - but if you smoke your drive down the left side, you will have a much shorter approach. but you're flirting with trouble and will have a partially blind approach
13. right of center line bunker has shorter approach to green and chance to reach in 2, but more trouble over there
15. not much of a risk reward...but what a terrific looking hole
16. if the pin is back, from the back tees this plays well over 200.  with wind in the face this can play 240.  how long do you want the hole to be?  I think it's a better Biarritz than Yale (which I love).
17. classic angled fairway
18. very reachable par 5 with aggressive line with your tee shot over the left bunker.  I think it's appropriate that this hole have the "boldest" green since that allows a shorter but accurate hitter a chance to halve/win the hole

Look - I'm not saying I don't like Blue.  Quite the opposite!  But Red is terrific and in my book is a slightly better course, and find the notion that Blue is "significantly" better as borderline absurd.  I also take issue with it being black and white as "strategic" or "penal" - most courses have elements of both.  I agree that Red is more penal, but think it is just as strategic, if not more so. 

I think Mike Keiser said he would split 4 rounds at Streamsong 3 at Red and 1 at Blue.  I would be 2 on each, but if only had one round to play it would be on Red (though then be sure to hit blue with my next trip!)

How would you split 4 rounds at Streamsong?

Anyway - fun discussion and interesting analysis.

Kevin

Mike Hendren

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Re: Streamsong Blue is Better Than Streamsong Red
« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2014, 01:52:58 PM »
This thread has me thinking.   I should probably back this up but I'm not sure I can:  I don't believe either course at Streamsong is great.   I think their architects are, but neither course holds a candle to their respective cousins at Bandon.  My initial theory is that the Florida site was not as good for golf architecture as we might like to believe.  Did a contrivted site inevitably yield contrived golf holes?   I suspect this is not only a minority opinion but also one that's lacking in thought and support.

I can't but wonder whether Bill, Ben and  Tom would list either course among their better products. 

For the numbers crowd, I think 7 is a slight stretch. 

Bogey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Kevin_D

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Re: Streamsong Blue is Better Than Streamsong Red
« Reply #28 on: August 14, 2014, 02:33:21 PM »
This thread has me thinking.   I should probably back this up but I'm not sure I can:  I don't believe either course at Streamsong is great.   I think their architects are, but neither course holds a candle to their respective cousins at Bandon.  My initial theory is that the Florida site was not as good for golf architecture as we might like to believe.  Did a contrivted site inevitably yield contrived golf holes?   I suspect this is not only a minority opinion but also one that's lacking in thought and support.

I can't but wonder whether Bill, Ben and  Tom would list either course among their better products. 

For the numbers crowd, I think 7 is a slight stretch. 

Bogey


DISAGREE.

Streamsong Red and Blue are both excellent courses and well worth a trip to play.  In fact - they might become a yearly winter trip for me!

Not that "numbers" matter, but I think both are easily 7s, and probably 8s (they are certainly worth a "special trip to see").  I haven't yet been to Bandon (will rectify that next month!) but I understand that to be filled with 9s and 10s, so is comparison really fair?  Can a course be "great", even if National, Shinnecock and Pine Valley are far better?  I think it can.

Especially when you factor in logistics - coming from the Northeast, Streamsong is a lot more attractive a long weekend option in March than Bandon - I think both courses are wonderful and unique additions to Florida golf, as well as golf in general.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Streamsong Blue is Better Than Streamsong Red
« Reply #29 on: August 14, 2014, 02:36:01 PM »
I can't but wonder whether Bill, Ben and  Tom would list either course among their better products. 

You probably won't get Bill or Ben to answer here on Golf Club Atlas.

FWIW, I do think Streamsong is one of our better products -- and I think the other course is one of Bill and Ben's as well.  I've enjoyed playing both courses a great deal, and I think each of them has a couple of really original holes [Blue 5 and 18, Red 7 and 9], which is a lot for any course.  I think it's comfortably one of my top ten courses [out of 33], and whichever of them is #10 is pretty darned good.

The client is disappointed that the rankings of the two courses are not higher [though business has been great].  Actually, most of the courses we have built that ranked any higher have an ocean beside them, or they are in the sand hills.  Since both firms have been the beneficiary of panelists' love of waterfront sites, we can't complain too much about our other courses being rated lower ... but I know that Bill, as I do, sometimes scratches his head over why it is such a large factor.

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Streamsong Blue is Better Than Streamsong Red
« Reply #30 on: August 14, 2014, 02:36:54 PM »
H and D disagree but based on my R and D I give Bandon an A and Streamsong a C.

Kevin_D

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Re: Streamsong Blue is Better Than Streamsong Red
« Reply #31 on: August 14, 2014, 02:44:27 PM »
The client is disappointed that the rankings of the two courses are not higher [though business has been great].

Wow.  #12 and #16 best public (and #52 and #62 in US) is disappointing?  Tough client...

http://www.golf.com/courses-and-travel/streamsong-red-and-streamsong-blue-debut-high-our-list-americas-best-public-access-courses?sct=hp10


Jim Franklin

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Re: Streamsong Blue is Better Than Streamsong Red
« Reply #32 on: August 14, 2014, 02:50:02 PM »
I loved both courses and believe they are the two best in Florida right now. With that said, I have played Seminole as many times as Streamsong (2), so maybe I need to play there a few more times. I think they have a winner and I look forward to taking another trip this winter. 1 and 1A in my book.
Mr Hurricane

Dan_Callahan

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Re: Streamsong Blue is Better Than Streamsong Red
« Reply #33 on: August 14, 2014, 03:24:38 PM »

The magazine raters still seem to have the two courses very close together ... they were just rated #12 and #14 among the 100 Best Courses You Can Play by GOLF Magazine [Red slightly higher].  I haven't seen the whole list yet, but that sounds like pretty good company.

Unfortunately, that list was immediately discredited when they included Sunday River in the top 100.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Streamsong Blue is Better Than Streamsong Red
« Reply #34 on: August 14, 2014, 03:59:46 PM »

The magazine raters still seem to have the two courses very close together ... they were just rated #12 and #14 among the 100 Best Courses You Can Play by GOLF Magazine [Red slightly higher].  I haven't seen the whole list yet, but that sounds like pretty good company.

Unfortunately, that list was immediately discredited when they included Sunday River in the top 100.

There are always some stinkers in these lists.  Trump's course in LA was ranked in the top 50, ahead of some really good courses.

Anyway, I don't know what Bogey's threshold for "great" is, but having Streamsong (Blue) ranked right in between Blackwolf Run and Chambers Bay is pretty strong, even if I personally prefer it to either of those.  And the Red course was ranked one place above Bandon Trails [where the ocean views are more limited].
« Last Edit: August 14, 2014, 04:11:05 PM by Tom_Doak »

Jud_T

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Re: Streamsong Blue is Better Than Streamsong Red
« Reply #35 on: August 14, 2014, 04:19:49 PM »

The client is disappointed that the rankings of the two courses are not higher [though business has been great].  

Would they prefer it if they were ranked higher and business sucked?   8)

As suspected, they fulfill a desire for top shelf public golf in an area and season that was somewhat lacking.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

George Pazin

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Re: Streamsong Blue is Better Than Streamsong Red
« Reply #36 on: August 14, 2014, 04:26:29 PM »
People who get wrapped up in ranking often forget there are other courses eligible...
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Michael George

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Re: Streamsong Blue is Better Than Streamsong Red
« Reply #37 on: August 14, 2014, 06:06:38 PM »
Tom:

If the magazine raters and retail golfers think that it is very difficult to rate one course over the other, yet rate both very high, then I think that you and Bill Coore succeeded in spades. 

In reading the many stories about Mike Keiser and his projects, I know the importance that he places in having each course at a resort be able to stand on its own feet next to the other courses at the resort.  Simply put, you don't have one star and a bunch of "acceptable" courses.  Ask people about Bandon and you will often get different answers as to which course is best and worst.  I think that is one of the main reasons for its success.   

Kudos to both Bill and you for working together to make sure each site was equally special and allowed for 2 great courses.  I think a lot of architects would have struggled doing that.   

After the new Confidential Guide is done, I think that a book on this project would be incredibly interesting and would be a nice add to the Streamsong pro shop.  I enjoyed reading about your project at Sebonack in Brad Klein's wonderful book.  I am sure this would be equally or more interesting.


 

"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Josh Tarble

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Re: Streamsong Blue is Better Than Streamsong Red
« Reply #38 on: August 14, 2014, 10:42:59 PM »
Michael,
Very nice post and I totally agree with you.  Like I said early, I think I like holes on the Red better but I like the Blue better overall.  However, I find myself thinking of it as a 36 hole complex rather than two 18 hole courses.  I am not sure if I'd make the effort to go play it if I only had time for one round.  Both courses are a must play in my book.

JNC Lyon

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Re: Streamsong Blue is Better Than Streamsong Red
« Reply #39 on: August 18, 2014, 07:28:00 PM »
Kevin D,

I think I split it 3 Blue, Red 1. Obviously the Red is a really solid course, and I enjoyed it immensely. The Blue is just much more my cup of tea. I also preferred North Berwick to Royal Dornoch, which is a similar type of comparison (quirky and fun vs. polished and solid). I guess that says a lot about my taste in golf courses.

As for the rankings BS, I haven't played enough of the great moderns to be any sort of authority. I will say that I think both courses are better than two layouts I've played on the Golfweek Top 100 Modern: The Ocean Course at Kiawah and Galloway National. The Ocean Course is ahead of both, and Galloway is ahead of the Blue, but neither is as good as either course at Streamsong. In fact, I don't even think it's a close call. On the other hand, I would be reticent to say Streamsong Blue is as good as something like Ballyneal, which I think is amazing. As George Pazin eludes to, only ten courses can be in the top 10 of any list. Are the two SS courses excellent? Absolutely. Is it possible that there are more than 10 courses built after 1960 that are better than the two courses at SS? Probably, since Doak, C&C, and a handful of others have done great courses on better pieces of property.

Bandon vs. Streamsong? SS certainly ranks higher in the convenience department (especially for me, since my apartment is less than 90 minutes away).
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Streamsong Blue is Better Than Streamsong Red
« Reply #40 on: August 18, 2014, 11:34:12 PM »
Rankings tend to be reflective of a players personal perspective on golf courses.

I recently played with a very good golfer who didn't like GCGC and LACC.
He also didn't like the West course at Firestone, but liked the South and North Courses.

So how would that golfer evaluate other courses ?

He seems to have different views when it comes to the courses he likes and dislikes.

It's also been my limited experience that golfers favor holes that "fit" their games, so why wouldn't they favor courses that fit their games.

Many golfers seem incapable of detaching an assessment from THEIR game, thus objectivity suffers.

And if objectivity suffers with many golfers/raters, how can ratings be credible ?

Kevin_D

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Re: Streamsong Blue is Better Than Streamsong Red
« Reply #41 on: August 19, 2014, 10:56:19 AM »
JNC,

I have played neither North Berwick nor Royal Dornoch, so I can't comment on those two, but the "quirky and fun" vs. "polished and solid" comparison kind of sounds like National vs. Shinny to me (as an aside - what golfers don't want a course to be fun?  ;))  I don't think the comparison applies here.  I give a slight nod to Red, but think Blue and Red are more similar than different (with both being excellent courses).

My main issue with your premise was Blue being "significantly" better was the "significantly" part.  I can see reasonable people disagreeing on which one is better, but can't see the someone thinking one is way better than the other.

But to each their own...
Kevin

PS - I am a 13 handicap (though I am pretty long) so I am not coming at this from the perspective of a scratch who just loves that Red is a better "test" or something

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