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John Chilver-Stainer

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Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
« Reply #50 on: August 13, 2014, 01:00:29 PM »
Thank you Ben, Sean, Frank, Adam and Simon P. for your praising endorsements of St.Enocdoc G.C.'s greens, and as I said it's comforting to know that the greens are pure fescue sward.

However to beg the question - just because the greens are in „perfect“ condition and running true, does not hide the fact that the greens look overwatered due to their very green appearance on the 2014 photos.

As we all know fescue does not thrive on too much water, too much water encourages other grasses and the firmness of the green can be compromised.

Having said that I wish St.Enocdoc G.C. and Scott the head greenkeeper all the best with their classic course and congratulations on achieving a pure fescue sward.

Ben Lovett

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Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
« Reply #51 on: August 13, 2014, 01:49:37 PM »
I wouldn't tie a green sward to overwatering. Newer ( technology) chemicals help with this

Thomas Dai

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Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
« Reply #52 on: August 13, 2014, 03:01:42 PM »
An observation, though not particularly related to St-E.

This season I've been noticing greens on a few UK courses that look 'greener' and haven't felt as firm under the foot as expected even during the hotter/drier period we had a couple of weeks ago.

When I've enquired I've been told that the greens are being cut a little bit higher than previously but that a 'greens-iron' is then being used to increase the speed.

The future? Or just a passing fad?



atb

Ben Lovett

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Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
« Reply #53 on: August 14, 2014, 12:27:32 AM »
Another factor could be the additional use of wetting agents which is creeping into links golf management, this often leads to a greener wetter looking sward

Lou_Duran

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Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
« Reply #54 on: September 17, 2014, 04:35:21 PM »
Simon,

Thanks for your warm welcome this past Thursday and for your club's outstanding hospitality in hosting the Buda.  I enjoyed meeting you and appreciate your great interest and pride in your course.  It would be a great privilege to be a member at St. Edonoc, a club I hope to visit again in the not too distant future.

I particularly enjoyed the first four holes on the course and the formidable closing three (#16 with the new green which fits the land well and the extra yardage requiring three well-hit, thoughtful shots, and contrasting nicely with the other 5, the shorter #1 going in nearly opposite direction).  #10 might be an even better hole if they extended the rough line up the hill to the right and mowed it (the hill/mound) to fairway height, perhaps grow a secondary rough near the creek/estuary on the left to prevent some fairly good shots from being overly penalized, and cutting back the tree/brush line also on the left to give partial visibility to the green.  My vote for less notable holes are #7 which played relatively easy with the unusual winds we had last week, and 13 which climbs so sharply.  I would not change either one.

For those who enjoy travel and playing great courses, a visit to St. Edonoc is a must.

Lynn_Shackelford

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Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
« Reply #55 on: September 18, 2014, 12:41:15 PM »
Simon

I too echo Lou's comments above.

Would love to hear the thoughts and process behind lengthening the 16th at St. Enodoc.  I would enjoy any pictures of the old green.  If you are wondering, I am not a proponent of the new longer hole.  The green however is quite interesting.
It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

Sean_A

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Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
« Reply #56 on: September 18, 2014, 01:28:20 PM »
Lynn

I have some old pix of the 16th green, but they seem to be lost.  I always thought of 10 and 16 as two sides of a coin...both being half par holes with possibly the 16th being the easier of the two.  The green wasn't as interesting s the current version, but it was on the OOB line for the brave of heart.  I still think its a great shame the hole was changed.  Still, St E is comfortably my favourite course in the West Country.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South, Lawsonia Links, Shoreacres, Culver Academies, Meadowbrook, Dunes Club & Crystal Downs

Bryan Izatt

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Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
« Reply #57 on: September 18, 2014, 02:00:01 PM »
Lynn,

Here is a photo from the David Scaletti feature interview from 2008 that I believe shows the old 16th green.  In the wind we played I don't think that the extra yardage was required, but then I'm no young flat belly.  I wonder how Ben played the hole?  The new green does look more interesting and challenging than the old one.





Lynn_Shackelford

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Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
« Reply #58 on: September 18, 2014, 02:05:08 PM »
Thanks Bryan.  It does appear that the right middle of the green is close to the edge of the cliff.  The green brings into play one of my pet peeves, having to walk backwards to get to the next tee.
It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

Paul_Turner

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Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
« Reply #59 on: September 19, 2014, 06:37:39 AM »
Great photo showing the contours of the old 16th green,  blends in much better than the MCEvoy effort.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Sean_A

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Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
« Reply #60 on: September 19, 2014, 06:47:13 AM »
Great photo showing the contours of the old 16th green,  blends in much better than the MCEvoy effort.

Paul

I agree.  The old green may not have been as interesting (but I think its placement was miles better), but it fit better with St E and the other greens.  The new 16th strikes me as a slog hole now whereas the old version  had some charm. It was lovely to come over the brow of the dune and see the green sitting there, cajoling golfers to have a go.

Ciao
« Last Edit: September 23, 2014, 03:50:28 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South, Lawsonia Links, Shoreacres, Culver Academies, Meadowbrook, Dunes Club & Crystal Downs

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
« Reply #61 on: September 21, 2014, 05:00:49 PM »
I've been thinking hard about St Enedoc.  I do think it's in the top 5 (Links) courses I've played in England but frankly I was hoping it would challenge for No1. For me it didn't and I've set out why below.  But Adam and James have said returning improved thier regard for the course, so I hope to return soon and perhpas move my feelings from respect to love.


You have to respect such a fine and varied colectin of holes. The 15th is perhaps the best side slope hole I've played and the wind we hd helped me drive the 4th, got  to love that.  Others have summed up the strengths well and I don't dispute thatere's fantastic golf to be had.


It was with a sense of relief whne I opened up this tread again and saw the mixed colours in Sean's photo's.  Thats not what we were presented with. It was when I reched the moguls on the 7th hole that I saw the first bit of grass that had any brown on them! IN Septemebr. The first hole is a beautiful links dream, all ripling fairways and then you crest the ridge with  water lies below you.  But the journey you  take from there to 18 is a long one and at tiems it felt like we'd gone far from the sea. Mark Pearce and I both failed to putt up the face of 14, and the broader leaf grasses there are present in many areas just off the green. Excessive runoff?  I've played 14 different Links courses this year and the ground game was most severely compromised at St Enedoc. Adam praises the pure strain of the Fescue greens but to me they looked a bit weird!   Never seen that on a links course before.  They putted great but they are the only times this year I've had to repair pitchmars on a links green.  Add to this the abundant and varied vegitation that exists just off the fairways and I found the whole effect disconcerting. (Anyone have a picture of the sunflowers to the right of the 4th tee?) .  In order to minimise the inland feel of the holes looping round the chuch the Club should be encoraging links grases and cutting back the trees in order to maintian the feeling of a links journey.

Re the watering. It was on both days when we arrived. If you are going to charge somoe £100 then can't it be done overnight?   There is no way we could have played the 3rd hole on the green - luckily the hole was conceeded before we reached it.


The effect was as if the Disney Corp were in charge of presentation and we were given not what a liks traditionally looks like but a new improved and greener version.  I am now worried that when I do return these practices will have done lasting damge.  Here's hoping I'm wrong.
on 29th May I am riding 100 Miles to help raise funds for Dementia Research. All donations are welcome.
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Ryan Coles

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Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
« Reply #62 on: September 21, 2014, 05:12:17 PM »
I've been thinking hard about St Enedoc.  I do think it's in the top 5 (Links) courses I've played in England but frankly I was hoping it would challenge for No1. For me it didn't and I've set out why below.  But Adam and James have said returning improved thier regard for the course, so I hope to return soon and perhpas move my feelings from respect to love.


You have to respect such a fine and varied colectin of holes. The 15th is perhaps the best side slope hole I've played and the wind we hd helped me drive the 4th, got  to love that.  Others have summed up the strengths well and I don't dispute thatere's fantastic golf to be had.


It was with a sense of relief whne I opened up this tread again and saw the mixed colours in Sean's photo's.  Thats not what we were presented with. It was when I reched the moguls on the 7th hole that I saw the first bit of grass that had any brown on them! IN Septemebr. The first hole is a beautiful links dream, all ripling fairways and then you crest the ridge with  water lies below you.  But the journey you  take from there to 18 is a long one and at tiems it felt like we'd gone far from the sea. Mark Pearce and I both failed to putt up the face of 14, and the broader leaf grasses there are present in many areas just off the green. Excessive runoff?  I've played 14 different Links courses this year and the ground game was most severely compromised at St Enedoc. Adam praises the pure strain of the Fescue greens but to me they looked a bit weird!   Never seen that on a links course before.  They putted great but they are the only times this year I've had to repair pitchmars on a links green.  Add to this the abundant and varied vegitation that exists just off the fairways and I found the whole effect disconcerting. (Anyone have a picture of the sunflowers to the right of the 4th tee?) .  In order to minimise the inland feel of the holes looping round the chuch the Club should be encoraging links grases and cutting back the trees in order to maintian the feeling of a links journey.

Re the watering. It was on both days when we arrived. If you are going to charge somoe £100 then can't it be done overnight?   There is no way we could have played the 3rd hole on the green - luckily the hole was conceeded before we reached it.


The effect was as if the Disney Corp were in charge of presentation and we were given not what a liks traditionally looks like but a new improved and greener version.  I am now worried that when I do return these practices will have done lasting damge.  Here's hoping I'm wrong.

When had they done autumn greens maintenance? Could they have been washing in top dressing?

Sean_A

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Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
« Reply #63 on: September 21, 2014, 08:04:58 PM »
Spangles

It would seem most links look green this fall.  St E was literally 3-4 days away from perfection in early August (and in very good nick) and then we started to get some rain and temps didn't get get very high.  Maybe there are watering issues as well, don't know.  Burnham is a lush mess these past few weeks...very disappointing condition.   There are some pix from last year mixed and the difference is obvious...same for Perranporth.  I preferred the more mellow links I encountered this year, especially at P'porth.  

All I can say is part of the wonder of golf courses is to see them over and over and be astounded at how different they can play...and thats as it should be assuming its the weather driving the conditions.  This is also why conditions shouldn't drive your opinion too much unless you are familiar with the course over many years or it exceptional.

Ciao
« Last Edit: September 21, 2014, 08:08:27 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South, Lawsonia Links, Shoreacres, Culver Academies, Meadowbrook, Dunes Club & Crystal Downs

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
« Reply #64 on: September 22, 2014, 03:45:48 AM »
Spangles

It would seem most links look green this fall.  St E was literally 3-4 days away from perfection in early August (and in very good nick) and then we started to get some rain and temps didn't get get very high.  Maybe there are watering issues as well, don't know.  Burnham is a lush mess these past few weeks...very disappointing condition.   There are some pix from last year mixed and the difference is obvious...same for Perranporth.  I preferred the more mellow links I encountered this year, especially at P'porth.  

All I can say is part of the wonder of golf courses is to see them over and over and be astounded at how different they can play...and thats as it should be assuming its the weather driving the conditions.  This is also why conditions shouldn't drive your opinion too much unless you are familiar with the course over many years or it exceptional.

Ciao

In which case you must have very different links in England to those we have in Ireland...

Almost all of ours are beautifully browned out at present...

Sean_A

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Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
« Reply #65 on: September 22, 2014, 03:54:23 AM »
Spangles

It would seem most links look green this fall.  St E was literally 3-4 days away from perfection in early August (and in very good nick) and then we started to get some rain and temps didn't get get very high.  Maybe there are watering issues as well, don't know.  Burnham is a lush mess these past few weeks...very disappointing condition.   There are some pix from last year mixed and the difference is obvious...same for Perranporth.  I preferred the more mellow links I encountered this year, especially at P'porth.  

All I can say is part of the wonder of golf courses is to see them over and over and be astounded at how different they can play...and thats as it should be assuming its the weather driving the conditions.  This is also why conditions shouldn't drive your opinion too much unless you are familiar with the course over many years or it exceptional.

Ciao

In which case you must have very different links in England to those we have in Ireland...

Almost all of ours are beautifully browned out at present...

Yes, very different links and different weather.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South, Lawsonia Links, Shoreacres, Culver Academies, Meadowbrook, Dunes Club & Crystal Downs

Mark Pearce

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Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
« Reply #66 on: September 22, 2014, 04:54:13 AM »
I thought the greens at St Enodoc were excellent and didn't see a pitch mark in three rounds there.  They were very green but played fine.  I was surprised to see the fairways being watered both days we were they but they did appear to have just fed something, there were white granules visible in places.
In July 2022 I will be riding 3 stages of the Tour de France,  in the Alps, to raise money for the William Wates Memorial Trust which is dedicated to providing opportunities for under privileged young adults.  To support the Trust, please visit https://fundraising.wwmt.org/fundraisers/MarkPearce/rid

Bryan Izatt

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Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
« Reply #67 on: September 23, 2014, 01:14:43 AM »

The sprinklers were on  when we played the 10th.  Only one at a time though.  The one below was sprinkling the rough, which seemed a bit silly to me.  It didn't seem to me to be related to greens maintenance.

I thought the greens played pretty firm, while the surrounds were somewhat slower.  Simon told us that the club was really committed to maintaining an excellent playing field.  Perhaps that excellence is a little too green for most of out tastes.

When we reached the 10th green, the sprinkler below shut off, but Steve had the misfortune of standing astride another sprinkler head as it fired up on the church side of the green.   :o



Lou_Duran

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Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
« Reply #68 on: September 23, 2014, 10:35:19 AM »
I thought the greens at St Enodoc were excellent and didn't see a pitch mark in three rounds there.  They were very green but played fine.  I was surprised to see the fairways being watered both days we were they but they did appear to have just fed something, there were white granules visible in places.

I agree with Mark, though there were a few places where the approaches were unexpectedly soft (e.g. # 9 right side, #14, left side).  All-in-all, I thought that the maintenance meld was fine.

Simon Pain

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Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
« Reply #69 on: September 23, 2014, 11:40:45 AM »
Well I have really enjoyed the Buda Boys' comments and have a few replies. Lou finding the 7th easy was true as the wind was helpful but with the wind in the usual South West direction it is a brute to get on in 2. Generally you seemed to prefer the old 16th hole but like the new green better which is quite the opposite to the Members view! The reason the hole was lengthened by McEvoy was that it was a very easy 475 yard Par 5 and the closing stretch needed strenghtening which was achieved as the last 3 holes are now memorable. Many was the time on the old 16th that after a good drive I had played a terrible second shot and STILL walked off with a 5 which I always thought was quite wrong; now I am absolutely delighted to walk off with a 5 at any time! Yes I liked the old green but I blow hot and cold over the ridge on the left side of the new one as it limits sensible pin positions.

Tony and the watering; some good points but I must firstly correct him as the green fee is only £75 not £100, quite a difference and an easy mistake to make on such a good course! In the Spring we had a lightning strike by the 9th green which has done about £70,000 of damage to the computer controlled watering control system and it is awaiting replacement hopefully paid by the insurers but the arguements go on. Thankfully it is cobbled up and does just about work and we can water but we can not do in the night as it now all has to be operated manually. We only have a limited capacity of water for the fairways as we can only refill the reservoir in the winter months - don't ask me why as it is bonkers for in Summer the water just runs out onto the beach. Generally we do not water the fairways at all other than areas which have suffered very hard wear or if it is really dry and then just to preserve the root system which is does very well. We want hard fast fairways and really do not mind what colour they are. Our Agronomist Adviser John O'Sullivan on his last visit 3 months ago said that the fairways badly needed scarifying, tining and feeding all of which was done shortly before your visit and yes the white granules were the fertiliser which by use of the watering system has now been watered in. I have to say that the fairways already look very different and better than they did during your visit.

The weather, not human intevention, is the real determinant of the colour of the course other than the greens; myths run round the club about what we do to the course some Members believe that we put fertiliser in the rough to promote growth when it is really lush but as with most of it it is Mother Nature who decides what the course looks like particularly in Summer. As to the Sunflowers yes they are pretty but a good idea went a bit wrong. With the farmers approval we cut back the sight line off the 4th White tee and then genrally cleaned up the surrounding area. Th idea of some wild flowers was good (as we did in the marsh on the 5th to cover over some rather bad work of a few years before) unfortunately we sowed meadow flowers rather than bog flowers there -oops!1

Simon Pain

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Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
« Reply #70 on: September 23, 2014, 12:22:37 PM »
I was cut off by the cat who trod on the keyboard. The variety of the comments of what you should and should not see on a links course amuses me. We had a dreadful row a couple of years ago when to stop the rabbits burrowing we put the stone walls round the 8th and 11th (White) tees. "Links courses don't have stone walls" Well sorry but the only definition of a links course is that it is on links land and luckily they are all different. Where does natural links ruggedness end and manicured begin? Only in the eye of the beholder.

Thanks for coming it was great to meet real golf enthusiasts, we are off to our home in Pinehurst tomorrow; I wonder what the new Dwarf Bermuda greens on #2 will be like and I hope to see Ran whilst in town. You can listen to the rubbish I talk on golf on Tee Time for the next 3 Mondays at 9.00 EDT on www.weeb990.com and it is usually podcasted as well. Is there some golf match this weekend?

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
« Reply #71 on: September 23, 2014, 12:34:23 PM »
Simon thanks for the reply and in particular for the reason for us seeing the sprinklers in action.

£100 FOR THE DAY(I stand corrected!) is great value compared to the other top 5 courses in Britain.

I have been dropping hints at home about a return to Cornwall, so I may get my wish to return before too long.

(PS can I still cast my vote against the wildflowers! ;))
on 29th May I am riding 100 Miles to help raise funds for Dementia Research. All donations are welcome.
https://www.justgiving.com/fundraising/ridelondon-tonymuldoon

Mark Pearce

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Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
« Reply #72 on: September 23, 2014, 12:54:04 PM »
Thanks for chiming in, Simon, and thanks again for taking the time to catch up with us on both mornings.  For me St Enodoc was a revelation, easily becoming a contender for the top 10 courses I have played.  I probably have it a notch below Dornoch and Muirfield in the UK but think it compares well to anywhere else.  Thanks for explaining the fairway watering, though I didn't find them soft, just not quite as fast as some might have been. 

There was some debate about the new(ish) green on 13.  I thought the green itself was pretty good but wasn't a fan of the scalloped mounding on the left rear side, between the bunkers and the single mound behid the green.  I didn't mind the new green on 16, never having played the old one but it seemed a bit severe in the wind we played in.  Perhaps it makes more sense in a westerly wind.
In July 2022 I will be riding 3 stages of the Tour de France,  in the Alps, to raise money for the William Wates Memorial Trust which is dedicated to providing opportunities for under privileged young adults.  To support the Trust, please visit https://fundraising.wwmt.org/fundraisers/MarkPearce/rid

Lynn_Shackelford

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Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
« Reply #73 on: September 23, 2014, 03:07:25 PM »
Simon

Glad you chimed in!  We haven't played it as much as you, so it is hard to say whether the old 16th was better, as good or worse than the current.  However in the "reverse wind" I found the last 3 holes discouraging and much more difficult than anything else out there with the exception of #2.  Bogey was a good score on those holes.
Furthermore I do not like the walk backward to 17th tee.  Guess you were landlocked on the 16th tee with the house and property just behind the tee.  You are now at 560 yards from the blues which isn't exactly easy for most players.  It interesting that members prefer the last holes to be so hard.
I wasn't a fan of the 13th green, but the 14th was world class.  If you haven't already departed for Pinehurst can you tell me has that little mound in front always been there?
15 isn't anything special, but a nice respite between 13, 14 and the finishing holes.
It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

Garland Bayley

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Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
« Reply #74 on: September 24, 2014, 02:05:10 PM »
...  I wonder how Ben played the hole?  ...


Ben laid up with an iron after the drive, saying it was too dangerous to go for the green in our match.
That left us both about 150 out after two with me getting a stroke. He beat me handily from there in.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

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