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Frank Pont

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Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
« Reply #25 on: August 06, 2014, 05:10:49 PM »

St Enodoc makes a strong case for best course in England, yes, its that good.


Sean,

you must be kidding? If not we live in different universes  ;)

But seriously, I will grant you that the front 9 is in the English top 5-10

Sean_A

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Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
« Reply #26 on: August 06, 2014, 06:25:22 PM »
David

I don't see much wrong with four straight holes when there are holes like 3, 4, 6, 10, 13 & 14.  I don't count #2 as straight because it definitely pays to be on the left of the fairway as the green tucks behind the dune.  

Frank

I highy value originality, great use of poor terrain/land, humpty bumpty terrain and funk.  St Enodoc has everytihing on the menu and a good sensible set of greens to boot.  

Ciao

  
« Last Edit: August 07, 2014, 03:03:03 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South, Lawsonia Links, Shoreacres, Culver Academies & Crystal Downs

ward peyronnin

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Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
« Reply #27 on: August 06, 2014, 10:15:59 PM »
St E is a treasure.

I do not understand the criticism of 10. The elevated tee presents a very strong visual of two distinctly varied sides: massive slopes and a water meadow. If it was flatter ground and bunkered properly would the tighteness be more acceptable to some? How can a hole be more visually stimulating? It is hard but so what

Sure it is heroic but one could play five iron twice and wedge and get past it for bogie.

And even Cruden Bay has a stretch of breather holes. 9,10,11,12 or not particularly awe inspiring and they have no 12theC church around which one plays. And look at the right side of the green of 14 or 15 ; fabulous.

I am in love with this place
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

Sean_A

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Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
« Reply #28 on: August 07, 2014, 03:21:05 AM »
I agree Chez Wardo, to complain about a few holes with such an abundance of riches on offer is churlish.  No course is perfect.  And to be fair, the 13th isn't a bad hole when viewed on its own.  Its just an awkward hole and out of place at St E.  The 11th too is a decent hole and a very good change of pace from #10.  St E has a remarkable rhythm to its holes and I can't honestly say there is anything close to a poor hole on the course. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South, Lawsonia Links, Shoreacres, Culver Academies & Crystal Downs

Mark Pearce

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Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
« Reply #29 on: August 07, 2014, 03:42:47 AM »
Have to say that this and the Perranporth thread have begun to get the juices flowing for the upcoming BUDA.  It does sound as if plenty of ammunition might be needed, though, particularly at the end of a wet warm summer.
In July 2022 I will be riding 3 stages of the Tour de France,  in the Alps, to raise money for the William Wates Memorial Trust which is dedicated to providing opportunities for under privileged young adults.  To support the Trust, please visit https://fundraising.wwmt.org/fundraisers/MarkPearce/rid

Sean_A

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Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
« Reply #30 on: August 07, 2014, 03:54:15 AM »
Have to say that this and the Perranporth thread have begun to get the juices flowing for the upcoming BUDA.  It does sound as if plenty of ammunition might be needed, though, particularly at the end of a wet warm summer.

Mark

If the weather holds, you lot should be in for a treat.  The rough is nearly there for the entire course.  Its turning crispy whispy as I type.  There is talk of a heat wave and if it materializes the rough will toast out completely.  The greens now are absolutely perfect speed and firmness.  Maybe 9.5 /10, no ball marks and rolling dead true.  In truth, Perranporth is in good nick as well.  The greens are slower and slightly bumpy here and there (to be expected of a 35 course), but overall very good.  The fairways on both courses are superb.  The problem at Perranporth will be if there is too long a dry spell.  That course will completely bake out making for extremely sporty conditions.  When combined with the eccentric design the two may cause consternation in the ranks because Peranporth isn't "big enough" to get really keen.  Anyway, it should be a ton of fun.

Ciao   
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South, Lawsonia Links, Shoreacres, Culver Academies & Crystal Downs

Simon Pain

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Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
« Reply #31 on: August 07, 2014, 03:59:27 AM »
As a St Enodoc Committee Member I have read with great interest all the posts and what an excellent write up and photos Sean. I need to consult our Club historian as the authorship of each of the holes as they now are. A few quick points, the 16th was lengthened by 85 yards going from 475 to 560 to make a very challenging hole particularly into the prevailing wind. The 13th has been our problem child for some while as the original green had to go as there were few pin positions since it had sunk so far to the right. You made no comment Sean over the view from the 18th tee so I must assume that you did not play it from the top tee with the breathtaking views of the Camel Estuary - shame as it is something else and our best marketing tool!.

The issue of "new" greens being out of character with the existing is a trap that many architects seem to fall into (David Steele's at North Hants come to mind). The best way to view St Enodoc is the drone helicopter flyovers on our website which start at head height at the back of each tee and it shows that the greens are all round except the new ones which I never realised despite having been a Member for 30 years! I brefly spoke to Mike Policano as he tackled the 7th with his hickories - brave man!.

The comment is often made that the Church holes 10 to 14 are out of keeping as yes the land is more farm than links but so be it and subject to my comments above over 13 none the worse for it and does give some variety, I have never come across a hole like our 14th. It has been interesting to read all the individual comments of likes and dislikes of individual holes which only proves that we are all different as are all golf courses. In all the posts everyone seems to have loved the course of which we are proud to be the current custodians and a tremendous amount of work has taken place over the last 10 years to raise the standard of the course particularly the greens and to give a friendly welcome to all our visitors. This year having made the Golf Digest World Top 100 we have seen many more visitors from the United States which has been most rewarding.

Sean_A

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Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
« Reply #32 on: August 07, 2014, 05:11:47 AM »
Simon

Thanks for your insider comments. 

It seems everytime I go back, the 13th looks slightly different.  I think the hole has been improving, but its hard to like against the backdrop of the other holes.  I will adamantly disagree with folks who think the 14th is poor hole.  The greensite is world class and the use of the wall is excellent.  No complaints from me except there are two steep climbers in a row, but I put that all on the 13th  ;)  I did "discover" what I think is a new 18th tee and I played from there.  The view is very fine...either direction. I also noticed that it must be quite close to a path because onlookers were close enough to pick my pocket!   

The 16th though, I still don't get it. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South, Lawsonia Links, Shoreacres, Culver Academies & Crystal Downs

Mark Pearce

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Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
« Reply #33 on: August 07, 2014, 06:18:21 AM »
Simon,

Thanks for your contribution.  I'm very keen to see St Enodoc next month.  Will you be around in September (11th and 12th) when BUDA is at St Enodoc?  If so, I'm sure we'd all be delighted to meet you so you can put faces to some of the names you have seen here.

I did smile, by the way, at the idea of the bespectacled cricketing bank clerk of the mid-70s designing greens at North Hants!
In July 2022 I will be riding 3 stages of the Tour de France,  in the Alps, to raise money for the William Wates Memorial Trust which is dedicated to providing opportunities for under privileged young adults.  To support the Trust, please visit https://fundraising.wwmt.org/fundraisers/MarkPearce/rid

Frank Pont

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Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
« Reply #34 on: August 07, 2014, 09:15:31 AM »

The issue of "new" greens being out of character with the existing is a trap that many architects seem to fall into (David Steele's at North Hants come to mind). The best way to view St Enodoc is the drone helicopter flyovers on our website which start at head height at the back of each tee and it shows that the greens are all round except the new ones which I never realised despite having been a Member for 30 years! I brefly spoke to Mike Policano as he tackled the 7th with his hickories - brave man!.

The comment is often made that the Church holes 10 to 14 are out of keeping as yes the land is more farm than links but so be it and subject to my comments above over 13 none the worse for it and does give some variety, I have never come across a hole like our 14th. It has been interesting to read all the individual comments of likes and dislikes of individual holes which only proves that we are all different as are all golf courses. In all the posts everyone seems to have loved the course of which we are proud to be the current custodians and a tremendous amount of work has taken place over the last 10 years to raise the standard of the course particularly the greens and to give a friendly welcome to all our visitors. This year having made the Golf Digest World Top 100 we have seen many more visitors from the United States which has been most rewarding.

Simon,

you should be very proud to be the custodians of such a beautiful, interesting and fun course to play. I do not think that there are many courses in GBI that match the scenic views of St Enedoc on a sunny day. As well our (Dutch) group had a very warm and friendly reception as well when we visited last month. Overall I cannot think of many other courses I would rather be on a sunny summer day.

Your point on "new greens being out of character on classic courses" illustrates how this is the ultimate test of the skills of a restoring golf architect. However the best in our business are very capable of building greens that blend in seamlessly with the original greens. That is why I always recommend that clubs go and see the actual work of a restoring architect before they hire him.

My issue with holes 10-15 is not so much that they are different in character or less good than the other 12 world class holes you have; they are in a different and often difficult terrain which effectively puts a limit on the potential of these holes. However my issue is that a number of them (particularly 11,12 and 13) could still be so much better visually, strategically and from a variety point of view, than they are now, thereby actually achieving their potential.

Again my compliments and please continue your careful and steady improvements of your classic course!
« Last Edit: August 08, 2014, 04:50:16 PM by Frank Pont »

Ben Stephens

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Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
« Reply #35 on: August 08, 2014, 02:31:52 AM »
Simon/Sean,

Have there been any thoughts of putting the 14th tee on the left of the 13th - I know it would make the hole straighter surely this would be a tighter drive with OOB on the left this would give it more variety rather than just have 2 uphill holes.

Are there any other 'figure 8' greens on the course with the exception of 13 and 16 which are new greens. By memory most of the older greens at St Enodoc are Oval shaped. Surely the course architect who did the work should have made it more oval shaped to reflect the older green so the new greens would have effortlessly blended in with the rest of the course.

Luffenham Heath has the same issue - 2 new greens were built but nothing like the character of the older greens which is a bit odd in my view.

Having seen the pics the juices are flowing again looking forward to playing St Enodoc as my last round was 5 under front nine and 12 over on the back nine :))

Cheers Ben

Sean_A

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Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
« Reply #36 on: August 08, 2014, 02:48:16 AM »
Ben

Having the 14th tee left of the 13th green would leave a very difficult drive as the land moves seriously right.  The present tee allows the golfer to bang a drive into the hill and hold.  Plus, I think the view of the church would be compromised somewhat. 

It would be nice if the green shaping was more varied, but one way the design gets away with it is there aren't many greenside bunkers to shape the greens around.  Even though roundish, most of the greens have interesting questions to pose or there is enough heartache/luck involved in getting to some greens that they needn't be extravagant.  From memory

1 & 2 are plateau/domed
3 runs away from play
4 runs left
5 is plateau
6 well, who cares
7 is a bit more shaped with some lower ground shy of the green
8 have to carry bunkers/plateau
9 is a funny green because its plateauish but runs back to front and off at the sides
10 has a cool spine running down the middle very difficult putting from rear of the green to front
11 is quite flat, but does move a bit away from the tee
12 is domed/pleateau
13 is quite sloped to back to front
14 is a bit of a bowl green
15 is a sidehiller, very tough target
16 is new ad an interesting green with a cool rear shelf near the rear bunker
17 is very cool front to backer
18 is plateau

Ciao
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South, Lawsonia Links, Shoreacres, Culver Academies & Crystal Downs

Ben Stephens

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Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
« Reply #37 on: August 08, 2014, 06:26:07 AM »
Surely they can widen the fairway and the further right you go the harder and longer the shot to the green at the 14th which would make it a better hole in theory. Also it would bring the OOB into play more off the tee. I can remember parts of this hole but not the severity of the slope on the fairway - will find out next month. :)

It is one of my favourite courses that I have played


Ben

Having the 14th tee left of the 13th green would leave a very difficult drive as the land moves seriously right.  The present tee allows the golfer to bang a drive into the hill and hold.  Plus, I think the view of the church would be compromised somewhat. 

It would be nice if the green shaping was more varied, but one way the design gets away with it is there aren't many greenside bunkers to shape the greens around.  Even though roundish, most of the greens have interesting questions to pose or there is enough heartache/luck involved in getting to some greens that they needn't be extravagant.  From memory

1 & 2 are plateau/domed
3 runs away from play
4 runs left
5 is plateau
6 well, who cares
7 is a bit more shaped with some lower ground shy of the green
8 have to carry bunkers/plateau
9 is a funny green because its plateauish but runs back to front and off at the sides
10 has a cool spine running down the middle very difficult putting from rear of the green to front
11 is quite flat, but does move a bit away from the tee
12 is domed/pleateau
13 is quite sloped to back to front
14 is a bit of a bowl green
15 is a sidehiller, very tough target
16 is new ad an interesting green with a cool rear shelf near the rear bunker
17 is very cool front to backer
18 is plateau

Ciao

Adam Lawrence

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Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
« Reply #38 on: August 08, 2014, 06:36:59 AM »
I rather like the tee shot on 14. It really doesn't have anything much in common with 13 - which is just a biff up the hill - because it has a nice diagonal aspect and gives a good range of positioning options. I can't possibly imagine that moving the tee above 13 green would make the hole better.

Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Simon Pain

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Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
« Reply #39 on: August 09, 2014, 11:40:26 AM »
Wow ! well thank you for all your most interesting comments. Let me answer in the order that they were made. Sean you are correct that the view from the 13th tee has altered as we have tinkered with the fairway cut lines every since we first replaced the green. I would stand on the tee and wonder what goes through a visitor's mind as to what the hole is trying to do. With the current view I am happy that it at least looks logical from there - more on 13 anon. Mark I will be around 11th / 12th September as we have some neighbours from Pinehurst staying so may not have too much time but contact me by email (sipain@aol.com) and we will see what we can arrange. Well spotted on the Donald Steele not David you must be a Brit, I realised as I walked up the 16th the day I posted the reply my mistake it never looked quite right at the time.

As to the comments Frank about the visual appeal of 11, 12 and 13 we have done quite a bit as Peter McEvoy altered the bunkers a bit on 11 added the fairway "signpost" bunkers on 12 ,13 and 14 for that matter.  On exactly that point we also had a go at planting to the right of the 12 and 13 in that bit of Indian Country but none of the plants / shrubs survived; we must try again. We have however planted gorse bushes behind the 13th green which are beginning to look very good. As to altering them strategically try playing 11 off the White or even further back Blue tee into the wind - it does not want any change its quite tough enough. Actually on that point 11 is the only hole on the course that is significantly harder off the white rather than the yellow tee for not only is it longer but the angle aims you at the OOB.  12 I have no complaints on strategy as it took me years to work out how to club to the green as I and many others always found it the most difficult approach shot on the course to club. The answer is that it is more uphill than you think and it is one more club than whatever you have chosen making allowance for the wind direction.

The round greens Ben! Sorry but they ARE all round bar the 2 new ones 13 and 16, if you don't believe me look at the flyovers on the website. With all the undulations etc I never realised that they were. Now if you want to make the 14th unplayable in the prevailing South West wind move the tee above the 13th green as there is no way you could possibly keep the ball on the fairway and you can not widen to the right. Sorry but I think it is a great hole as it is and one of the most wind affected on the course.

Keep the comments coming!

Thomas Dai

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Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
« Reply #40 on: August 09, 2014, 02:21:02 PM »
......try playing 11 off the White or even further back Blue tee into the wind - it does not want any change its quite tough enough.

A very good general point this, not just StE related, and an aspect that's easily missed when normally playing courses as a green-fee paying visitor when, in most cases, you are required to play from the yellow 'daily' tees. And of course it's not just a distance matter either, it's usually angles and carries etc as well. One of the best aspects of playing in club/regional Open Competitions in the UK is getting the opportunity to play from the white or even further back tees.
atb

John Chilver-Stainer

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Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
« Reply #41 on: August 12, 2014, 12:40:49 PM »
At risk of being a "killjoy" - but it has to be said.

The greens at St.Enocdoc look overwatered and overmaintained for a "true" links golf course. If that's an Agrostis Stoloniofera green then the trending to a soft green is inevitable.

Compare the photos of 2006, 2009 and 2014

Ben Lovett

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Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
« Reply #42 on: August 12, 2014, 02:12:42 PM »
Some of the best links greens I've ever seen, in person not commenting on photos!

Ben Lovett

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Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
« Reply #43 on: August 12, 2014, 02:14:27 PM »
Pure fescue sward! But what do I know!!!!

John Chilver-Stainer

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Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
« Reply #44 on: August 12, 2014, 02:34:31 PM »
Pure fescue sward! But what do I know!!!!

Thank you Ben for that recent "on the spot" information - that's very comforting it's a pure fescue sward. (I assume you know that !!)

However it's discomforting to see how glowing green it is - hopefully not on a regular basis otherwise they'll lose their pure sward rapidly.

Ben Lovett

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Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
« Reply #45 on: August 12, 2014, 02:51:51 PM »
John,
15 years career Greenkeeper, and trust me Scott is very good!

Sean_A

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Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
« Reply #46 on: August 12, 2014, 07:44:15 PM »
John

The greens were in very good order.  Not quite as firm as they could be, but very little sign of ball marks/bruising and they rolled true at a sensible speed.  If only all greens were this good. In my experience, very few courses have better conditioned greens.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South, Lawsonia Links, Shoreacres, Culver Academies & Crystal Downs

Simon Pain

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Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
« Reply #47 on: August 13, 2014, 03:28:43 AM »
Well C-S your comments on the greens deserve a reply. Firstly looking at the photos to which you refer reflects the quality of the photos rather than the greens as the greens are dramatically harder and faster than they were in 2009. Some years ago the Club realised that the greens had become soft and slow and they needed returning to proper links greens. The services of John O'Sullivan, probably Europe's top golf course agronomist, have been employed on a quarterly basis to advise us on what to do. His instructions have been faithfully carried ouit by Scott Gibson our Course Manager. On his last visit about 6 weeks ago John said he felt that they were now as good as any links greens in the U.K. running at a sensible speed and amazingly true.

Adam Lawrence

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Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
« Reply #48 on: August 13, 2014, 03:58:01 AM »
When I was there in June the greens were perfect; as Ben says, as pure a fescue sward as I've seen, and rolling as true as you could wish. Our group all agreed they were as good a set of links greens (condition wise) as we had ever seen).
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Frank Pont

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: All Things Draw Toward ST ENODOC (Dos)
« Reply #49 on: August 13, 2014, 04:01:33 AM »
When I was there in June the greens were perfect; as Ben says, as pure a fescue sward as I've seen, and rolling as true as you could wish. Our group all agreed they were as good a set of links greens (condition wise) as we had ever seen).
+1

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