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Matt_Cohn

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New Poppy Hills photo tour
« on: July 06, 2014, 05:52:12 AM »
Commentary to follow.

Jones Trail tees card


1st tee


1st green


2nd tee


3rd tee


Jones Trail yardage plates


3rd fairway


3rd green


4th tee


4th fairway


5th tee


5th fairway


6th tee


7th tee


7th green


8th tee


8th green


Signage from cut-down trees


9th tee


9th fairway


9th green


10th tee


10th fairway


11th tee


11th green


12th tee


13th green


14th tee


14th fairway


14th green


15th tee


15th green


16th tee


16th fairway


16th green


17th green


18th tee


18th green
« Last Edit: July 06, 2014, 08:32:27 AM by Matt_Cohn »

Kevin_Reilly

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Re: New Poppy Hills photo tour
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2014, 12:43:35 PM »
Thanks Matt - that 18th green picture is great.

I played more forward tees during my visit...those Jones Trail (ugh....what a name) tees are for sure only for players of your level!

Looking at your pictures it seems more obvious now how unfortunate the cart paths are in many areas.  I didn't notice them as much during our outing.

Looking forward to your comments.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Poppy Hills photo tour
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2014, 04:25:28 PM »
I'll get the basics out of the way first:

  • New Poppy is really good. I'd give the new one a 7 and the old one a 5.
  • It's nothing like the Old Poppy.

Old Poppy just felt like a struggle — against the land, against your eye, against the greens, against the doglegs, and so on. That's gone now. It feels like an honest course, though certainly not straightforward. I think the general themes have been well-covered — there's no rough, the fairways are sand-capped, the artificial mounding has been reduced or eliminated, a couple of new holes at 11 and 12 — so I won't rehash those too much. If you've yet to read anything about the renovation, check out renovation.poppyhillsgolf.com. A few general thoughts:

—The greens are still very firm, but championship firm, not stupid firm. I was expecting them to be just rock-hard, although most folks will still find them to be as firm as anything they've played. There is a lot of contour, and you can get into spots on and around the greens where you cannot get to the hole. On #2, for example, the hole was in the left-side pocket over the bunker. Three of us hit very good shots onto the green from 210 (within 35 feet), and two of us had no chance of getting our approach putts inside of 6 feet. This occurred a few other times with putts and chips as well...and this is with the greens running at 9 or so.

—Everything looks SO much better. It's such a huge improvement.

—The names of the tees are silly! 1 Poppy, 2 Poppies, 3 Poppies, 4 Poppies, Jones Trail? I would have gone with Whale, Seal, Otter, Gull, and Abalone or whatever. Not that this matters at all! Or they could have named them after NCGA greats or something.

—The waste bunkers, as they should be, are a bit of a crapshoot. You could be absolutely perfect or you could be in a hoofprint.

—The conditions are excellent. No need to wait!

—There's only one minor change I want to see made to one hole. One #10, think the slope off the left part of the green down towards the lake is awkward and doesn't fit with anything else on the course.  It was described by the architect and on the website as "Augusta-like" but it's just not working. All they'd have to do is put one more bunker at the front-left part of the green. It would not only look better, but also make the hole easier, in theory, because balls would not roll 60 feet backwards in to the water. (Who thought that would be a popular feature???)

Here's an NCGA photo during construction showing the length of the slope:


And a Googled photo:


My playing partner and I both agreed that just adding a second or even third bunker would make the hole look at play much more agreeably:







If I can only think of one change I want to make, that's a pretty good sign. The NCGA has strongly succeeded with New Poppy.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2014, 08:19:01 PM by Matt_Cohn »

Paul Gray

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Re: New Poppy Hills photo tour
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2014, 04:56:02 PM »
Based purely on the pictures, trees seem to still restrict play, making straight the only option. Would that be fair comment?
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Lynn_Shackelford

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Re: New Poppy Hills photo tour
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2014, 05:11:26 PM »
Good pictures.  I hope this is a better course, the first one was pretty bad.

Since Jones gets to redo his first one, which wasn't well done, he gets his name on the back tees?

Who made that decision?
It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

Matt_Cohn

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Re: New Poppy Hills photo tour
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2014, 05:13:00 PM »
Based purely on the pictures, trees seem to still restrict play, making straight the only option. Would that be fair comment?

I don't think so. Only 5, maybe 8, and 12 are particularly tight off the tee.

Tim Leahy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Poppy Hills photo tour
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2014, 06:19:23 PM »
The different color sand looks horrible. Looks like they ruined the 5th. Dont like the whole thing but will have to see it in person. Surely wouldnt pay more than NCGA rate for it.
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Poppy Hills photo tour
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2014, 06:54:21 PM »
Your friends must like you. You take pictures in the middle of the backswing, at the top, at all sorts of unfortunate moments.
Coming in August 2023
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Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Poppy Hills photo tour
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2014, 07:13:27 PM »
Your friends must like you. You take pictures in the middle of the backswing, at the top, at all sorts of unfortunate moments.

Haha. Ronald, all were taken with an iPhone (silent). That's me in the middle of my backswing. The guy in the odd-looking position at the top is Randy Haag, one of the more accomplished amateur golfers over the past 25 years or so (randyhaag.com). I don't think he minds! (As a side note, yesterday morning he started bogey-bogey at Del Monte in the Monterey City but brought it back for 67.)

Matt_Cohn

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Re: New Poppy Hills photo tour
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2014, 07:22:42 PM »
The different color sand looks horrible. Looks like they ruined the 5th. Dont like the whole thing but will have to see it in person. Surely wouldnt pay more than NCGA rate for it.

Tim, admittedly not a good picture of the 5th hole approach shot by me. Here's an NCGA photo showing a bit more "texture". They most certainly did not ruin the hole — that lake was awful!

« Last Edit: July 06, 2014, 07:24:41 PM by Matt_Cohn »

Connor Dougherty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Poppy Hills photo tour
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2014, 11:02:21 PM »
The different color sand looks horrible. Looks like they ruined the 5th. Dont like the whole thing but will have to see it in person. Surely wouldnt pay more than NCGA rate for it.

Tim:
The sand colors aren't as bad in person as they look in photos. I would have liked something closer to the waste areas for the bunkers, but the waste areas are far to firm to be treated as bunkers, or, for that matter, to use as the sand in bunkers.

I'm with Matt, I thought the 5th was pretty awful, and it has turned into one of the better holes on the property IMO. I kind of felt that the Pinehurst reference on its website fit for this hole, as it reminded me a bit of the approach for the 4th with the way the hillside now sits on the right.

My overall reactions:

-It is my belief that of the public courses on 17 Mile Drive (Pebble Beach, Spyglass, Spanish Bay being the others), the 9th at Poppy Hills is now the best par 5. The central bunkers off the tee are incredibly well placed and provide a myriad of options off the tee, and the approach can be played several ways, whether its off the slope front right of the green or carrying the diagonal dry creek bed. I do wish they got rid of the huge stones which make the creek bed though and went with something friendlier to golf clubs.

-I also agree with Matt on the 10th, but I'm not sure that the runoff area to the left is what I didn't like about the hole. That green shape isn't particularly my favorite and just seems to stick out in comparison to the other greens rather than blend in.

-Of the changes that were made, the 12th is easily my favorite. That hole was terrible before. Now, it reminds me of a hole which George Thomas sketched out in Golf Architecture in America. The bunkers jut into play in a way which forces you to pick a landing target. Given the rather blandness of the land it sits on, it's a great hole.

-The use of greens which slope away from you on several occasions is promising. I hope that NCGA members who play the course grow to enjoy this feature, but based on the three gentleman I played with, that may take some time.

-Most of the tee shots are pretty open, but several of the Jones tee positions, like the 3rd, are really set back in some narrow chutes which make the course feel narrower at times than it really is. I'm still not exactly sure how I feel about that, because while many of those trees come into play, it makes a few of the holes feel really claustrophobic at the start.

Overall, I think it's easily become the 3rd best public track on the peninsula, it's more interesting than Spanish Bay but not enough to top Spyglass. It is closer than a few people may think. On a Doak scale, I'm giving it a 7, and for comparison, I've got Pasatiempo as an 8.

Nonetheless, it's worth playing if you have time and are in the area.
"The website is just one great post away from changing the world of golf architecture.  Make it." --Bart Bradley

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Poppy Hills photo tour
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2014, 03:45:41 AM »
Looks like they ruined the 5th.

Three pictures to show that they did not ruin the 5th! In fact it's one of my favorite holes now. There's something fascinating about the green.







And two more, of 12:


And 15:

Keith Doleshel

Re: New Poppy Hills photo tour
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2014, 11:01:06 AM »
I played the new Poppy Hills last week and was honestly a bit underwhelmed.  There is no doubt that visually it looked better, but I guess I was expecting more.  Outside of the two new holes which I thought were well done, it felt very much like the "old" Poppy.  Maybe my expectations were too high. 


Things I liked

- Having no rough on the course is visually appealing and does add a different dimension than most golfer are used to.  Seeing short grass everywhere was probably my favorite feature of the course.
- Holes #11 and #12 were a nice addition.  Adding a short par three to the other relatively long one-shotters was a nice touch.  #12 is one of the better holes on the property.
- The green complex on #16 looks awesome.  The green is nestled into the hillside framed by a wonderful bunker.  Another solid par 4.
- Replacing the lake on #5 was much needed, that was a pretty awful hole before.
- Having all sorts of options around the greens was fun.  Much more interesting than hitting chips with a lob wedge from the rough if you missed a green.

Things I didn't like

- The native areas felt honestly out of place.  I didn't feel they looked natural at all.  They looked forced and contrived to me.  I know that is a feature the NCGA seemed proud of, but I am not a fan at all.
- Many of the green complexes are still extreme.  I know they were supposed to have been softened, but still have a lot of mounding which reminded me of their previous versions. #2 especially stood out, as the pin was on a back shelf where the landing area was probably only 15 feet on a shot from 180+ yards. (we played the 4 Poppies tees, one up from the back) 
- The in-course OB is pretty close on a number of holes, especially with conditions as firm as they are.  One of my playing partners hit a tee shot up the right side on #12 with a cut which almost ended up OB.  He landed it between the bunkers on the left side of the fairway, it shot right and hit the curb of the path which was the only think keeping it in play.  Minor issue, but one I felt should be mentioned.
- The bank of #10 would be improved with a bunker or two like Matt suggested.  I felt like it didn't give a player much of incentive to go for the green in two unless the pin was front right and you could bail far to the right.
- The closely mown areas around the greens helped certain shots which were badly missed while shots that landed solidly on the green were  repelled on a number of instances.  Maybe after a few rounds one would know where to miss, but it was a little frustrating seeing those developments occur repeatedly.  I don't mind quirk and the occasional crazy bounce, but it happened a lot.

All in all, I would give the new Poppy a C+.  Think it could've been better, but it's an improvement over the old Poppy.

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Poppy Hills photo tour
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2014, 12:12:46 PM »
Can't say I like much of anything in the photos beyond your impact position. Looks like they were going for a look or theme that the land would not yield.

Were there severe restrictions on tree removal or does RTJ think that is more of the Augusta effect? Just what public golf needs, a few more tee shots like 11 and 18 at Augusta.  ???

I'm sure it plays better than it photographs but...

Jim Hoak

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: New Poppy Hills photo tour
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2014, 03:40:30 PM »
For those of you who played it before, #12 is not a  new hole--it is the back half of the old par-5 #12.  Therefore, it has the sametight out-of-bounds on the right that the hole had before--I assume because that is the end of the property.
The conclusion from most people is the same--improved but not great.  It is up against big competition, so it is still the 7th best course of the 7 in the Forest.  Maybe it has caught Spanish Bay--so it's tied for 6th.

Pat Burke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Poppy Hills photo tour
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2014, 03:43:54 PM »
I really disliked Poppy when we played AT&T.

Looking at the pictures, it looks like a lot of improvement.
Not really sure about the different color for the sand,  Doesn't look right
to my eye at least.  If I get up there again, looks like it would be worth a look.
That says a lot btw, because I would never have gone there as it was

Mark_Fine

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Re: New Poppy Hills photo tour
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2014, 03:47:01 PM »
Heard some good things about the redesign.  Will have to play it on my next trip out that way.  Never like to judge a course from photos but I really don't like the white and off white sand combination.  I know why they do it but it looks poor!

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Poppy Hills photo tour
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2014, 05:07:02 PM »
Heard some good things about the redesign.  Will have to play it on my next trip out that way.  Never like to judge a course from photos but I really don't like the white and off white sand combination.  I know why they do it but it looks poor!

Mark,

I don't understand the sand combination either. Played Poppy when it first opened. Not impressed. Seems like the course that never should have been built. These pictures certainly don't inspire me to give it a second chance
Tim Weiman

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Poppy Hills photo tour
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2014, 11:34:13 PM »
Mark,

I don't understand the sand combination either. Played Poppy when it first opened. Not impressed. Seems like the course that never should have been built. These pictures certainly don't inspire me to give it a second chance

Mark, that's a strong statement to make given that you have never played the golf course. Despite some tweaks that still need to be made to the course, I can assure you that you would be missing out if you're in the area and don't play it.


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