[Tony_Muldoon]

The trees must go.  Several heathland courses feature a long view down one or more holes and it adds to the overall beauty, whilst at the same time making the shot more challenging.



I couldn't understand the whinning about the lack of visibility on 10.   Heck you get to see all the hole before you walk back and if you can't remember what's out there, then you haven't fully evolved from the nearby fishes!  As you can't see the near edge I bet it makes most aim on a slightly safer line, and that's agood thing.  Another good hole in a course with a lot of them.


PS has anyone got a good photo of the very cool mound at the front of the 7th green? (I prefferred the tee to the right we played on Wednesday).

 Or looking back down 10?

[James Boon]

Sean,

Thanks for the continuation. Here's my own next contribution...

The short par 4 5th was playing downwind while we were there, allowing my partner and GCAer Ben to get quite close to the green, but it was a tricky approach, with the flag on a small shelf on the right with drop offs short right and long. Here it is from just short right


I suspect Sean you might be correct in that the lost fairway out to the right could hold the easier angle for approach, even if the dry stone wall gets in the way a little?

Its quite possible that most people will have already had a good look at the 6th hole, from the balcony of the clubhouse, as seen here


Playing downwind it was tricky to hold the green, but I did love this little hole. From lower down on the tee


A closer look at the green shows that an apparent safe shot to the left could find a little hollow, perhaps not as bad as the bunkers down the right, but still not easy


We were playing from the forward tee, probably not a bad thing as it was into the wind, but that meant missing a sneak view of the Firth of Forth and also over the fence to some flags on Muirfield in the distance. Here is the tee shot, with forecaddy in the distance


A view of the approach from about 100 yards out shows the great little mound and then big drop off short left. The fairway were this is taken from was also like a hogs back and my layup on one round did kick off it wildly and miss the fairway by a yard or two, only for me to find it was waist high thick rough!


Sean has already shown the virtues of the 8th which I too thought was a good hole. The green reminded me of the pictures I've seen of the old MacKenzie green at Sitwell Park?


Onto 9 and when you get to the green, suddenly the view of the sea reveals itself!


And lastly for tonight, the 10th. I actually thought it was a decent hole and the walk back to the tee not such an issue, just a shame that the view of the fairway wasnt great. Having said that, I fully realise that as Angela Moser describes elsewhere, with the land being a SSSI the tees are pretty much at the level they had to be, and as Neil point out you do get a view of whats coming as you walk off the 9th green, as seen here


View from the tee. Not a bad setting though is it?


From just short, the mound to the right and shape of the green does make it a tricky approach but I felt it was another wonderful green


Lastly, one of the things that I imagine really increases peoples love of the 10th is the view back across the hole, the bay and the Firth of Forth beyond as you climb up to the next tee.


Cheers,

James

[Marty Bonnar]

... And the magnificent view of the Kingdom of Fife, of course!

[Ryan Coles]

Interesting reading the comments about the rough not being what was intended with the original design.

Do the powers that be at Castle Stuart not deserve a lot of credit for not altering/narrowing even when hosting the Scottish Open?

[Anthony Fowler]

Sean, thanks for taking the lead with this great thread. I recently played two rounds at Renaissance, so it's still very fresh in my mind. Here are a few reactions so far:

This course has so much going for it, including scenic beauty, dramatic contour, perfect links conditions, and a spectacular set of greens. I agree with what others have already written about the width and penal nature of some holes. Marginal misses can easily result in lost balls or chip outs, which is frustrating. The course was a lot easier on the second round, because I knew where I could miss, where the ball would bounce, where I didn't need to hit driver, etc. Nonetheless, there are several holes that lack strategy and just require two straight shots. In my mind, this is probably the one factor that leaves this course slightly behind the very best courses. Among other Doak courses, for me, it's in the same league as Streamsong and Stone Eagle (pretty good company!) but behind Pacific, Ballyneal, and Barnbougle. Its high notes are as good as anywhere and there are no bad holes, but there are also too many unmemorable holes.

On the 10th in particular, I have to disagree with the criticisms. Perhaps it's lame to say that you love the one hole that runs along the ocean, but it's one of the best holes that I have ever played. Not only is the hole as scenic and dramatic as you find anywhere, but the hole exemplifies strategic golf.

Think about the 5th hole at Merion, one of the greatest holes in the world and often lauded on this site for its strategic merits. If you hit to the left side of the fairway, challenging the creek and taking a risk, you get a shorter approach from a flatter lie and a better angle into the severely sloped green. If you bail out to the right, you get a longer approach with the ball above your feet and a worse angle into the green. Unfortunately, Merion has diminished some of this hole's strategic value by narrowing the fairway and pushing the tee back to 500 yards, but the concept is still a great one. In my view, the 10th hole at Renaissance executes this concept even better than 5 at Merion, and instead of a little creek, you have to worry about a cliff edge and an ocean!

Sean and others criticized two features of this hole: the left side of the fairway is blind from the tee and the green is too severely sloped. Personally, I think these are great features. The rewarding, left side of the fairway is supposed to be hard to hit, and the partially blind tee shot adds to the challenge and excitement. Furthermore, the severity of the green is essential for the strategy of the hole to work out. You want it to be very difficult for the player who bailed out to the right to be able to hold the green with his/her approach. In my second round, I bailed out way too far to the right, and I was left with a 170 yard approach with the ball way above my feet, a rock-hard right-to-left sloping green, and a terrible angle. I hit the best shot I could and had to watch it roll off the back-left corner of the green, but I loved it. That's precisely the penalty I deserved for flailing my tee shot to the safe part of the fairway. In order to fully embrace the strategic merits of the hole, I think you have to accept the severity and accept that fact that a mediocre shot or a conservative line off the tee will force you to face a much more difficult approach.

I should also say that I spent some extra time chipping and putting around this green, and I found it to be tricky, challenging, exciting, etc. but also playable. While there are no dull putts or chips on that green, and while you certainly don't want to be in the junk to the right of the hole, you still have a decent chance at saving par from anywhere within reason.

On the walk back to the tee, I would say that, in general, I don't like walking back to tees but I'm happy to make an exception in this case. First, the walk is beautiful and serene. Second, the walk gives you a chance to see the fairway so there are no surprises even though the tee shot is partially blind once you get back there. Third, the hole is good enough that the backtrack is worth it.

For all of these reasons, I'm willing to say that #10 at Renaissance is one of my favorite holes. Maybe it's cliche to love the dramatic, beautiful ocean hole, and you'll have to take my word for it that it's not just the eye candy that's making me say this. I look forward to more discussion.

[Sean_A]

I don't mean to suggest #10 is a poor or average hole; for sure its a good hole.  It could be that what makes a great hole is really a good hole that people like a lot for whatever reason.  I would be inclined to think along Frank's line; eliminate the walk back and create a shorter 4 from near the 9th green.  I don't like the idea of walking to a poor visual spot to tee off...doesn't make much sense to me.

Renaissance Tour Cont

Onto the 11th; quite a whimsical hole which I liked a lot.  The wall is a great counter feature to the bunker and knob shy of the green.  My only complaint is the tee platform blocks out the view of the bunker area.  Its such a visually lovely hole that its a shame to cut the view down. 


A look at the green with the 9th on the left.


Heading back in the direction of the 10th, 12 is perhaps the most prosaic hole on the course, but not bad for that.  The three-shot 13th makes the turn for home.  There is a cluster of left bunkers for aggressive players to carry.  I suspect there was more fairway left which left a better angle to cope with the hog back fairway shy of the green.  Many will play out to to the right and have to decide if they want to knock the second far enough to reach the hog back.  Again, in the not so long ago days, I bet the chance of losing the long blind approach was greatly reduced with an enlarged fairway.  Now, the fairway is narrow enough where balls can hit either side of the hog back and shoot into the jungle.  I immediately thought of Addington's infamous 8th when I crested the hill and saw that two balls hit down the middle were not seen.  There is nothing wrong with the element of luck when bangin' the second down the hill, but its disheartening not to know which section of hay to search. 


The pictures below showcase the classy green and hog back. There is a cracking bunker hidden in a fold midish left of the green. 




More to follow.

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

Sean:

Normally I tire of those folks who say you don't know a course until you have played it in different conditions, etc., but reading your write-up of the 13th, it strikes me that none of you saw The Renaissance Club in the normal [strong] wind from the west.  Holes like the 7th and 8th are much more reachable in that wind, but the 11th and 13th, especially, take on a different character than what any of you saw.  It takes most people two solid shots at the 13th just to get to the crest of the hill, and playing the pitch downhill and into the wind is not easy.

I don't mean to put a damper on your review; we are enjoying the feedback and it's interesting to see which holes you like more or less on a course I am very familiar with.

[Sean_A]

Tom

Yes, I realize we had a contrary wind for three rounds, but thats the nature of the beast. We get a snapshot of a course and if we are lucky we get to return some day.   However, the issue with 13 isn't how short the hole played (a guy I played with hit driver 5 iron), regardless, it still takes two good shots with a bit of luck to two putt for birdie.  My issue is with the narrow fairway around the hogback.  I guess one could say to avoid that problem lay-up at the top of the hill; its not terribly fun to lay up with an 8 iron from the middle of the fairway on a three-shot hole, but it is an alternative. 

I reckon 8 is great no matter the wind direction. I didn't mind one bit having to bash driver/3 wood and fail to reach the green on three occasions from the middle of the fairway.  While very different, 8 is in league with Foxy and Sea Headrig - its that good. 

Renaissance Tour Cont.

Like the 4th, we encounter a hole which rises sharply.  It takes a big ball to fly the bunkers on 14 so most will be short and face a blind approach.  The green is slightly off set which makes me think that at one time the green could approach up the gut from the far left side of the fairway which is now rough.  As the hole is set up now, the approach is extremely demanding.   


The 15th green is somewhat similar to the 14th in that it is slightly askew and very difficult to hit.  Lots of balls end up in the right hand sand, but a four can be had from there and an up n' down is far from impossible.  The golfer now has the choice of playing on or heading for the bar.   Quite reachable in two, for a golfer of my meager abilities, the par 5 sixteenth is one of Renaissance's few realistic birdie opportunities. This is mainly due to the relatively gentle green.  17 looks tougher than it is for a longish par 3.  One can spray it a bit right, but the recovery for a three is trickier than it would seem.  One of the aspects of the course I don't hear much about is the ground game.  There are plenty of opportunities to bounce balls into greens, but often only from the correct angle and at risk.  On 17 there is a deep swale between a bunker left and mound right. I watched a beautifully struck ball land well short, bounce and roll to six feet. 

Despite the removal of the right tree (shown in photos below), 18 is one of my favourite holes and brings the golfer home in style. Big hitters have a huge advantage as they can blow it over the right hand bunker, but horrible rough and a stone wall may give some pause to the flat bellies.  Most will have to work a drive between the bunkers or lay back, leaving a mid to long iron/wood.  Much like Pinehurst's putting surfaces, the raised green is a tough target, but once putting it isn't onerous.


The green from near the 6th tee.


For my money, the front nine is the more compelling side, but then it would be with #s 8 and 9.  That isn't to say the back nine isn't without its moments; #s 11, 13 & 18 provide a fine canvass of variety.  It is the variety of greens, elevation changes and scenery which combine to make Renaissance very rewarding to play. It was mentioned earlier, but its difficult to overstate the superb access to the course from the house. This is the piece de resistance of Renaissance; setting it apart from a number of other top courses.  However, I hope the club takes the decision to push out some fairways and alter some cut lines.  I say this because the course is far more enjoyable in the winter than summer so why not offer that enjoyment all year? The course can only be improved by doing so and Renaissance is far too good not to achieve its full potential.   1*  2024

Ciao

[Patrice Boissonnas]

My feelings about 10 are mixed.
I would normally mind the long walk down to the back tees but with such a beautiful view I actually enjoyed this breathing moment at the turn between 9 and 10.
As a rule I always tend to favor visibility but I must admit I liked the “play & pray” / “hit & hope” feel when driving this hole. You don’t see the fairway but you know what your line is, especially if you’re a regular player of the course.
On the other hand, the second shot offers no option and is even impossible if played from the right of the fairway. This is frustrating and could only be solved with more room both right and left of the greens which I am no sure could be made available due to severely sloping terrain.
In the end, 10 seems a little one-dimensional but that’s not necessarily a bad thing if the exception rather than the rule.
Maybe the club could consider multiple tee boxes similar to hole 10 at Castle Stuart.

[Patrice Boissonnas]

About par 3’s at RC:
6 is a stunningly clever little one, clearly my favorite par 3 on course.

9 plays beautifully. A great long iron/hybrid challenge with lots of room around the green for rolling the ball towards the hole. (sorry, no pic of this one).

Compared to those 2 gems, I think 11, 15 and 17 have less for themselves.
11 has world class potential but is IMO spoiled by two (easily fixable) things: the front tee is too long/high and hides the view from the back tee. The gigantic knob front of the green makes the hole look like a lottery. Having said that I realize it’s the king of feature you like on old courses but strangely reject on new designs… I’d have to sleep on it…

15 is OK but strangely enough lacks visual appeal. Fun to play though.

17 has a very nice green complex but hardly visible from the tee. Standing on the tee, you feel you’re just playing a connecting hole between 16 and 18 rather than a hole which was meant to be laid at this specific spot. Maybe routing is to blame here.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I absolutely ,loved number 10.
This is what I love about this site, it just shows how hard it is to please everydoy.
The challenge that the tee shot places as a rsik reward is superb.
Once you have played it a few times and get "some balls" you realise what you cwn cut off down that left side making the second shot much more into that slope on the right and making it esaier to control the distance of the approach.

or

Down the right side and more of a guessing game on how short to land your aprroach shot and how much the ball may run into the trouble on that left side.
The greens proximity to the left rouble and the slope encourahing the off line shot into that trouble is pure genius to me.
To me it is one of those holes I could play all day.
Love the semi blind tee shot, the walk to the tee is breathtaking and enahances the feel of being oceanside, and then that look from the tee when you get there is Cypress like

Loved it....

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

My views on number 11.
When I first stepped onto the tee I thoght wow, this has true Postage Stamp potential, not that I am suggesting anybody should copy!!
But I thought by moving the tee a little to the right, and shortening to a mere 130/140, on ethe view of the green would be less inhibited by the raised front of the tee but  also the line into that green with the wall more parallel to the target line just created a great visual to me.
The green would become almost Redanish from theat angle, the left hump then becomes less intrusive and less whimsically penal and I hate to use the word fair.

I thought that the left hump made the approach shot too "by chance" on the bounce due to its severity, but if played more from the right it would be more collective than chance.
I agree into the wind the hole would change 100% and then you would allow the player to carry that hump totally knowing that the wind/spin would allow you to kkep the ball on the green.
The wall feature is simply awesome though.

[Tom_Doak]

My views on number 11.
When I first stepped onto the tee I thoght wow, this has true Postage Stamp potential, not that I am suggesting anybody should copy!!
But I thought by moving the tee a little to the right, and shortening to a mere 130/140, on ethe view of the green would be less inhibited by the raised front of the tee but  also the line into that green with the wall more parallel to the target line just created a great visual to me.
The green would become almost Redanish from theat angle, the left hump then becomes less intrusive and less whimsically penal and I hate to use the word fair.

I thought that the left hump made the approach shot too "by chance" on the bounce due to its severity, but if played more from the right it would be more collective than chance.
I agree into the wind the hole would change 100% and then you would allow the player to carry that hump totally knowing that the wind/spin would allow you to kkep the ball on the green.
The wall feature is simply awesome though.

I have not played #11 into the prevailing wind since the hole opened, but I suspect that like the 11th at Pacific Dunes it would often require a long iron from the tee and that it is really quite a bitch of a hole.

[Neil White]

Hole 11 is a quirky little so and so.

Semi-blind, downhill, devilish bunker at the front and a wall at the rear.....

If my memory serves me we played it with a helping breeze each time - I would imagine the hole would become a brute with a strong northerly to north-westerly wind in your face but as MWP suggests that could make holding the green easier.

It would've been nice to see a little more short grass on the slope short and left of the green to entice a low punched shot into the green working around the fronting bunker and possibly an extension of the green at the rear toward the wall to make use of the slight slope that is there.

[Frank Pont]

11 has world class potential but is IMO spoiled by two (easily fixable) things: the front tee is too long/high and hides the view from the back tee.

To illustrate PB's point, the view from the white tees over the yellow tees to the green

[Frank Pont]

Again for people interested in studying RC in detail, including details of all the superb greens, see these photo tours of RC in 2011 with old configuration and in 2014 with new configuration (in 2014 tour starts on hole 3, I did not photograph holes 1 and 2)

http://ivgd.smugmug.com/Golf-Architecture-Pictures/Scotland/Renaissance-Club

[Tom_Doak]

Hole 11 is a quirky little so and so.

Semi-blind, downhill, devilish bunker at the front and a wall at the rear.....

If my memory serves me we played it with a helping breeze each time - I would imagine the hole would become a brute with a strong northerly to north-westerly wind in your face but as MWP suggests that could make holding the green easier.

It would've been nice to see a little more short grass on the slope short and left of the green to entice a low punched shot into the green working around the fronting bunker and possibly an extension of the green at the rear toward the wall to make use of the slight slope that is there.

There used to be more short grass at the left front (as well as many other places on the course).

We thought about extending the green but the greenkeeper was concerned about the frequency of mowing so close to the wall.

[Niall C]

I'm a bit puzzled by some of the comments on the 10th. The only real negative for me is the walk up to the 11th tee but then again its unavoidable and you'd rather have that mid round than at the end. As many have commented, visibility of the 11th green could be improved from the tee and perhaps this would help with providing a sense of arrival when you get to the tee.

Anyway, back to the 10th. I loved the walk back to the tee. A real sense of being out on a limb in a wilder landscape than the rest of the course (if that doesn't sound too poncy). The walk is easy and affords a great challenge for the tee shot. Mark me down also as a fan of the semi-blind aspect with the left side obscured. It just adds to the challenge. Hit it there if you dare.

Also OK with the green. Nothing says you have to be able to hold a green irrespective of where you play from. I put one over back left and had an interesting chip back. It was certainly playable. Thumbs up from me.

Trees - I'm not a tree hugger but neither am I a mad axeman. I'd be happy enough with some stands of trees being left. To my mind they can help frame a view or act as a marker post of sorts. I appreciate that last reason might be why some might want to do away with them but as a player, I really can't be arsed with architects playing with a golfers sense of perception. They can also help disguise some of the shaping. Case in point would be the 14th which had the stand of trees behind before the recent changes. Without them it appears more obvious to me the push up nature of the green. That might just be me mind you.

Niall

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

My views on number 11.
When I first stepped onto the tee I thoght wow, this has true Postage Stamp potential, not that I am suggesting anybody should copy!!
But I thought by moving the tee a little to the right, and shortening to a mere 130/140, on ethe view of the green would be less inhibited by the raised front of the tee but  also the line into that green with the wall more parallel to the target line just created a great visual to me.
The green would become almost Redanish from theat angle, the left hump then becomes less intrusive and less whimsically penal and I hate to use the word fair.

I thought that the left hump made the approach shot too "by chance" on the bounce due to its severity, but if played more from the right it would be more collective than chance.
I agree into the wind the hole would change 100% and then you would allow the player to carry that hump totally knowing that the wind/spin would allow you to kkep the ball on the green.
The wall feature is simply awesome though.

I have not played #11 into the prevailing wind since the hole opened, but I suspect that like the 11th at Pacific Dunes it would often require a long iron from the tee and that it is really quite a bitch of a hole.

From that back tee especially a real man up and "how big of a boy are you " hole.
I guess we both just need to go back and play it into the wind

[Frank Pont]

Sean:

Interesting that you liked the trees behind the 7th as those are the only ones still left that I've thought about removing.  Without them you are looking right up toward the 8th green.  But, the depth perception would be MUCH more difficult since you often can't see much or any of the green surface on the 7th when playing an approach.

Could not resist doing a quick before and after picture showing tree removal behind hole 7, enjoy!



Before




After

I know which one I prefer......

[James Boon]

Sean, and everyone else who has contributed, great pictures! These are my last ones...

Sure the walk up to the 11th tee is a bit of a pain, but as I pointed out, the view isnt bad, and its not a bad little hole when you get to the tee. Notwithstanding the lack of a decent view of the green from the back of the tee as discussed. The bunker short left and the wall back right are an interesting and challenging combination, but the mound back left is just as tricky an obstacle, seen here with a back left hole location


The 12th was I believe adjusted when the new holes were added. Perhaps Tom can detail the exact changes? Here is a view from the fairway

The bunker on the right almost has a sneeky little gap down the right for a run in, if the fairway was ever muh wider that side?

The drive on the 13th could challenge the bunkers up the left, but another one was hiding just beyond, as was one lost in the rough...



Going for this green in two was on for most people with the wind behind and downwind nature of the hole. I seemed to always end up short right no matter where or what I hit. I tried to persuade Sean to run a mid iron down the hill after a great drive but he wasnt interested and blasted a fairway wood at it, no doubt concerned with the kicks from the fairway, but still with a great result!

The drive on the 14th was with wind behind tricky as the bunkers were all reachable. Here is the approach from just short of them that needed to be faded in


The 15th was a challenging par 3 with right of the green seeming to attract everything even with plenty of room right


The 16th, again changed in the revised routing, is now a par 5. Here is a view from the fairway with the green out of view almost


But over the rise and its a great view of the green and the wider setting


As already mentioned the 17th is a great green, but isnt a great looking hole from the tee. Here is a view from a little closer, showing the deep front bunker


Lastly, after the drive already described by Sean, the approach over the dry stone dyke to a tricky green


I cant really add much more as most points have already been made so hopefully these pictures add to the discussion. I will though say that the course deserves to be ranked higher than it is in GB&I lists, but I've mentioned playing there to so many people who havent even heard of it. Perhaps that will change over time? Also, its disappointing that with Castle Stuart showing how a new, strategic links with width can be used for the Scottish Open, that TRC feels it needs to tighten the course to toughen it up. Lastly, the greens and their surrounds are certainly one of the best sets I've played. I think that I could happily have taken a putter and a 7 iron and a few balls out to just spend time around any one of those greens, chipping and putting, for the sheer fun of it!

Cheers,

James

[Niall C]

James

Re your last para, that's exactly what I did on the practice holes. A great way the spend some time.

Niall

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Sean:

Interesting that you liked the trees behind the 7th as those are the only ones still left that I've thought about removing.  Without them you are looking right up toward the 8th green.  But, the depth perception would be MUCH more difficult since you often can't see much or any of the green surface on the 7th when playing an approach.

Could not resist doing a quick before and after picture showing tree removal behind hole 7, enjoy!



Before




After

I know which one I prefer......

Frank from that view no doubt which one I prefer to.....but from 120 out, with a blind shot into the green I am not sure I would thik the same thing.

That been said how visible is the remaining tree from the fairway, perhaps that would suffice as some from of target to base the shot upon?

Really enjoyed playing with you and Patrice, a true treat to listen to two guys in the biz.

[Frank Pont]

Michael,

well spotted, that's exactly why I left the tree on the right!

Plan that Low Countries trip for next year, we'll have some more fun....

[Frank Pont]

James

Re your last para, that's exactly what I did on the practice holes. A great way the spend some time.

Niall

I wholeheartedly echo this sentiment; the greens at RC are what made the course shine the most for me.

I wrote TD that the greens were very very good, in terms of variety, randomness of small features, approach strategy and recovery options for missed shots around the greens. If you play this course every day you will get a very good and creative short game. I especially loved the possibility and often reward to play bump and run shots, sometimes even with the 3 wood or putter from quite far out.

Great stuff.

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