[Chris Hans]

St Georges on LI has some bunkering like this.  A good operator with an empty fairway mower basket can barely hang the right or left front reel over the edge and done.  Some may use a walking mower.  Its a little more stressful on that fairway-height turf but worth a little extra "input" if its an original design feature.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Pat, I'm not seeing more of the short cut around fairway bunkers, although I like the concept.  I still see "hairy eyebrows" around many fairway bunkers.  I'm also not sure I'd like to see many concepts as "universal."  One of the things I like about golf are the various conditions. I played a course in England a few years ago with one of our GCA members. It was a course that gave the player very few options off the tee.  Some holes required left to right some relight to left. I thoroughly enjoyed the test of my tee ball. My partner asked if I liked that kind of golf.  I did for that day bto to wouldnt like it all the time. There are other ways to test the tee shot.  I like variety even if I have preferences.

[Mark Chaplin]

Twice today we hit decent tee shots that fed into bunkers from 5 yards wide of the trap, no sign of any collared rough.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Applaud the USGA all you'd like, it did NOTHING to attract anyone new to the game of golf.

Anthony,

That was NEVER the function of the USGA.

Within the last decade they seem to have been saddled with that responsibility, a responsibility that didn't exist in the 1920's, 1940's, 1960's, 1980's or 2000.

It also didn't do anything to keep those that were debating on hanging up the sticks.

That's not their responsibility either.

The economy changed the dynamic along with the politics of envy.

There was a very in depth Twitter conversation about this 2 weeks ago. Many on this site enjoy the "down with brown," look, but most do not. If the USGA was really behind the movement, why didn't all their championships look like that?

There are a number of reasons, starting with Mother Nature.
Secondly, the USGA does not have absolute control over the hosting club.

We have many, many years before brown is considered "pretty" or even acceptable.

Agreed, but ideal playing conditions are leading golfers toward brownish/yellowish/greenish conditions.

People like green.

That's because they've never seen anything else and because that's what they see on TV every weekend.

Id venture to say the majority of golfers would give up a few yards to have green lush turf, at least in America.

I'm not so sure of that.
And believe I could convince members to opt for another 10-20 yards at the expense of lush green.

[Mark_Fine]

Pat
I am all for brown grass (plays just as good if not better than green grass) but did you know that 9 out of 10 golfers think dormant Bermuda grass is dead  . Why do you think sooo many courses down south still overseed with Rye.  Some courses are moving to Celebration Bermuda hoping to not have to overseed because it still retains some color when it goes dormant. 

[Doug Siebert]

I've always preferred this look, and have said many times here that I despise the US practice of placing fairway bunkers in the rough (even on new designs where it can't be blamed on fairways that have been narrowed over the years) or worse putting little circles of rough around the ones in the fairway.

I get that it saves on maintenance costs to leave rough around them, but we aren't mowing fairways with gang mowers anymore, so it only takes a couple minutes per bunker to do it right.  If you have so many fairway bunkers that adds up to a lot of time you can't complain about maintenance costs when you have that damn many bunkers to groom and maintain!

[Sam Krume]

I think that bunkers are and please correct if I'm wrong, for the majority of times, positioned where they are as a hazard and you should be penalised you if you play an errant shot towards them (definitely no collars of rough to SAVE you from a sandy grave). Bunkers that have found them selves in the deep rough yards away from the fairway I think is nothing down to the design of that particular course, I believe it's down to, and as I have read on here many times, the fashion over the years to narrow the playing corridors, to toughen up a course due to some ill informed greens committe or members..

[Bill Brightly]

Id venture to say the majority of golfers would give up a few yards to have green lush turf, at least in America.

I'm not so sure of that.
And believe I could convince members to opt for another 10-20 yards at the expense of lush green.

[/quote]

Here's a scene that I would love to see: One day Mountain Ridge is instantly turned Brown, playing as fast and firm as you would like it. All the members can easily see the new color standing on the practice green (which overlooks the course below.) And as the members are going crazy,  Mucci is holding court, explaining why they will love it!

[Thomas Dai]

My general preference is for no collars around the front of bunkers. 'Scruffy' over the top edge or at the sides is usually okay if it's the right sort of bunker in the right location and on the right type of course.

Not sure about collars around the edges of ponds though. The long, slow 'death roll' of the ball down a slope into water is not really nice to see, unless it's a matchplay opponants balls that is!

atb

[PCCraig]

This feature was implemented at a few points when my home course's bunkers were renovated in 2013 and 2014. While not in the original plan, the Superintendent running the project seemed to like the look and those bunkers done in the style are a hit with the members I play with.

The greenside bunker on the 1st:

On the par-3 3rd:

The fairway bunker on the 12th hole:

Next to the 12th Green:

The land short and left of the 240-yard par-3 14th funnels rolling balls into this bunker:

Note how the fringe right of the green rolls into the bunker on the 16th:

[Bill Brightly]

PCraig,

I think that is very cool and it certainly brings the bunkers into play. It is good to hear that the members like it. However, the "split" look of the bunker on 12 shows how hard it is to make the decision on where to start and stop the fairway cut. I like it, but I think it requires an artistic decision on every bunker.

[Sean_A]

PCraig,

I think that is very cool and it certainly brings the bunkers into play. It is good to hear that the members like it. However, the "split" look of the bunker on 12 shows how hard it is to make the decision on where to start and stop the fairway cut. I like it, but I think it requires an artistic decision on every bunker.

Bill

Yes, sometimes in an effort to get bunkers more into play an inartistic cut line ruins the visuals.  For my part, I don't know why the short grass doesn't carry on around the bunker more...for that matter...why not pushed out where there are no bunkers?  Still, this is a start and hopefully rough will be pushed further out in years to come.  On parkland courses it does look strange at first because people are so used to seeing that extra cut of texture, but the cleaner look grows on ya. I always thought for parkland courses the short grass look looks better on more rounded potish like bunkers with grass faces...so sand isn't really on show unless one is close or above the bunker. 

Ciao

[PCCraig]

PCraig,

I think that is very cool and it certainly brings the bunkers into play. It is good to hear that the members like it. However, the "split" look of the bunker on 12 shows how hard it is to make the decision on where to start and stop the fairway cut. I like it, but I think it requires an artistic decision on every bunker.

Bill,

I understand what you're saying. I personally prefer more fairway or short grass leading into bunkers, but I can't complain too much as even a little is better than a ring of rough.

What might not come through in my picture of the bunker on 12 is that the fairway left of the bunker slopes pretty dramatically into/toward the bunker. Shorter hitters won't reach it, but longer hitters can carry the bunker and any slightly less than ideally struck drives can now more easily find the hazard.

[Bill Brightly]

Sean and Craig,

I am a huge fan of removing protective rough around bunkers. But as a former greens chair who tried to listen and learn from my superintendent, it is not as simple as saying "cut it all at fairway height!"  Unless you are going to do it around every bunker at a place like NGLA, you are going to be making artistic decisions.  And then hoping the crew does it right every time they mow. And you may have to eliminate bluegrass rough and match the fairway grass. Sprinkler heads may need to be moved.  Try looking at an aerial (and then standing view) of your favorite US parkland course and decide where the rough starts and stops around bunkers. It ain't easy! Sean has been in the UK too long!  He thinks you just shift where the sheep graze...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill Brightly,

I think the introduction of Bluegrass, which was a major trend for a while, needs to be reversed.

If you look at aerials from the 40's, 50's and 60's, many fairways were adjacent to the bunkers.

Many of the buffers of rough you mention were introduced subsequent to the installation of most irrigation systems, hence, I don't believe that "irrigation systems" are a major impediment to eliminating those buffers.

Like fast play, I believe it's a cultural resistance.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Sean and Craig,

I am a huge fan of removing protective rough around bunkers. But as a former greens chair who tried to listen and learn from my superintendent, it is not as simple as saying "cut it all at fairway height!"  Unless you are going to do it around every bunker at a place like NGLA, you are going to be making artistic decisions.  And then hoping the crew does it right every time they mow. And you may have to eliminate bluegrass rough and match the fairway grass. Sprinkler heads may need to be moved.  Try looking at an aerial (and then standing view) of your favorite US parkland course and decide where the rough starts and stops around bunkers. It ain't easy! Sean has been in the UK too long!  He thinks you just shift where the sheep graze...

Bill, this is very true and we have dealt with it very recently. If fairways are to roll directly into bunkers  - fairway and green-side - it may mean a fairway expansion that could begin 20-30 yards back so that grassing line integrity is maintained. As you point out, that can also mean rolling up bluegrass and laying down fairway sod.

if not done in a thoughtful way, it could look unnatural. Best done in the hands of a consulting architect.

[Joe Hancock]

Pat,

The only disagreement I have is that it's not a problem of turf type. Bluegrass can play very firm and fast. So, while the problem has been correctly identified, I don't believe bluegrass is the culprit.

Hoping it's warm where you are,

Joe

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

The only disagreement I have is that it's not a problem of turf type. Bluegrass can play very firm and fast. So, while the problem has been correctly identified, I don't believe bluegrass is the culprit.

Joe,

I was referencing the buffers of Bluegrass rough that many clubs introduced around greens and as buffers between fairways and hazards

Hoping it's warm where you are,

It was ZERO last night, but it warmed up to 3 degrees when I drove my son to school this morning.

Hope you're warmer than that

Joe

[Sean_A]

Sean and Craig,

I am a huge fan of removing protective rough around bunkers. But as a former greens chair who tried to listen and learn from my superintendent, it is not as simple as saying "cut it all at fairway height!"  Unless you are going to do it around every bunker at a place like NGLA, you are going to be making artistic decisions.  And then hoping the crew does it right every time they mow. And you may have to eliminate bluegrass rough and match the fairway grass. Sprinkler heads may need to be moved.  Try looking at an aerial (and then standing view) of your favorite US parkland course and decide where the rough starts and stops around bunkers. It ain't easy! Sean has been in the UK too long!  He thinks you just shift where the sheep graze...

Bill

Sure, where to create the grass line is an artistic, monetary and playability decision.  Its merely my opinion that ending a grass line in the middle of a bunker or mound etc is not very artistic....even if it is a step in the right direction.  As I say, it does look a little strange to see short grass swing around greenside hazards and land forms, but only because we have become so used to seeing rough pinch in around greens, effectively creating what is basically a walking path to the front of a rough induced island green.  I know which look I prefer and which will imo play better (especially if there is any shaping/land forms near the green), but to each is own.  One of my favourite courses, Beau Desert, suffers greatly from this lack of vision...such a pity.

See this photo tour for an ide of what I am talking about.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,53736.0.html

Ciao

[Doug Siebert]

Bunkers that have found them selves in the deep rough yards away from the fairway I think is nothing down to the design of that particular course, I believe it's down to, and as I have read on here many times, the fashion over the years to narrow the playing corridors, to toughen up a course due to some ill informed greens committe or members..

That may be true for older courses, but it seems to be relatively common in courses designed in the last 20 years (not talking about the highly rated ones designed by Doak or Coore we talk about here, but the typical middle of the road CCFAD or resort course)  Those weren't designed with wide fairways that were narrowed, they were designed with bunkers in the rough or that only peek partway out into the fairway with 3/4 of them in the rough.

[Sam Krume]

Bunkers that have found them selves in the deep rough yards away from the fairway I think is nothing down to the design of that particular course, I believe it's down to, and as I have read on here many times, the fashion over the years to narrow the playing corridors, to toughen up a course due to some ill informed greens committe or members..

That may be true for older courses, but it seems to be relatively common in courses designed in the last 20 years (not talking about the highly rated ones designed by Doak or Coore we talk about here, but the typical middle of the road CCFAD or resort course)  Those weren't designed with wide fairways that were narrowed, they were designed with bunkers in the rough or that only peek partway out into the fairway with 3/4 of them in the rough.

Doug, my apologies on my ignorance reg the new designs. Most of the golf that I see and play tends to be at, as you say the older courses. Not that many new courses built in the south of England that really stand out, there are a few but not that many.

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