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Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
1 Hole Between 240ish and 440ish @ Masters?
« on: April 13, 2014, 10:42:24 PM »
Is this right, there is only one hole between 240ish and 440ish for the Masters - #3?  If so, I never realized this before.  What do folks think about this?  Does it play into the hands of Bubba style smashmouth golf?  Do folks think the greens and hills offer the perfect opportunity for a few more holes in the low to late 300s?  I did notice that Bubba hit it so far on #3 that he got himself out of position and didn't really know what to do. The resulting shot reflected his indecision.  

11 holes between 440ish and 530ish yards?  Does this strike anyone as bizarre, even on a very hilly site?
 
Ciao
« Last Edit: April 14, 2014, 07:23:18 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2023: Cardigan, St David's City, Panmure, Kinghorn, Harrogate, Hinckley, Robin Hood & Ladybank

Garland Bayley

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Re: 1 Hole Between 240ish and 440ish?
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2014, 10:45:32 PM »
Seems bizarre to me, but then tooonament golf is a bizarre thing.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 1 Hole Between 240ish and 440ish?
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2014, 10:48:17 PM »
#tournamenttees

#1percentof1percentofgolfers
Maybe for 2022
~Eden Valley
~Hillview
~Pinehurst (NY)
~Kis 'N Greens
~Pine Meadows
~18 Mile Creek
~Greenwood
~Shawnee
~Leroy
~

Matthew Rose

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Re: 1 Hole Between 240ish and 440ish?
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2014, 10:49:14 PM »
Well, #7 used to be 360 and there were three 400 yard holes on the back nine until very recently.

It's a shame there isn't at least one short four on the back nine. Would #14 be more interesting if it was, say, 370 yards?

And #7 is just stupid now.

#3 is one of my favorite holes on the course to watch year after year.... it's too bad there isn't one like it later in the round.

American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

Matthew Petersen

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Re: 1 Hole Between 240ish and 440ish?
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2014, 10:51:36 PM »
It's weird, but it's weird how far these guys hit the ball. 470 yd uphill par 4s and guys are hitting short irons in.

Phil McDade

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Re: 1 Hole Between 240ish and 440ish?
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2014, 11:05:17 PM »
Sean:

Augusta National played at under 7,000 yards (6,950 give or take) when Tiger tore it up in 1997. And the course then had an interesting mix of short-to-medium-to-long par 4s.

3 has typically played around 360-365.

7 played at 360 in 1997 (Nicklaus, in a video he made of his 18 favorite golf holes, included 7 as one of his favorite short par 4s in all of golf.)

9 played at 435.

11 played at 455 (and 445 in the 1960s and 1970s; now it's 500+)

14 played at 405

17 played at 400

18 played at 405.

So today's long course is really a product of pushing tees back. Everything changed after 1997 (eventually, but that's what got the wheels turning).

A very good rundown here from the GCA website by Daniel Wexler: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/wexler-daniel-augusta/
« Last Edit: April 13, 2014, 11:07:40 PM by Phil McDade »

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 1 Hole Between 240ish and 440ish?
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2014, 12:21:01 AM »
Sean Rye has 10 par fours over 430 yards and 1 par 5. Yet it's only 6400 yards!
Cave Nil Vino

mike_beene

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Re: 1 Hole Between 240ish and 440ish?
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2014, 12:50:27 AM »
Was the full yardage used for the most part?

BCrosby

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Re: 1 Hole Between 240ish and 440ish?
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2014, 09:34:30 AM »
Interesting observation.

One reason Merion worked so well last summer (if holding winning scores to single digits under par is your goal) is that its holes were either short or long relative to their pars - even though its total yardage is short for a US Open. Merion has few mid-length holes.

Advertently or not, ANGC seems to have arrived at a similar formula. The two courses have different mixes of long/short holes relative to their  pars. But the same basic patttern seems to be at work at both - minimize the number of mid-length holes.

Is the Merion formula a way to counteract recent increases in distance?

Bob

Brent Hutto

Re: 1 Hole Between 240ish and 440ish?
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2014, 09:49:16 AM »
Bob,

I'm tempted to say the "minimizing the number of mid-length holes" is not only (apparently) a good way to protect against low scores but it does a pretty good job of adding interest.

For my short-hitting game of course having a bunch of 470 Par 4's is right out. But I think courses with some driver-wedge Par 4's along with a few that I basically play as short Par 5's is more interesting than an endless succession of holes in the 340, 350, 360, 370 range (which for me is driver then some sort of middle to long iron).

Perhaps it also adds interest for the elite players. The eleventh is interesting. The third is interesting. Some of the other extra-long ones (9 and 10) are interesting.

Garland Bayley

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Re: 1 Hole Between 240ish and 440ish?
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2014, 10:02:02 AM »
"minimizing the number of mid-length holes" is not only (apparently) a good way to protect against low scores but it does a pretty good job of decreasing interest.

What's the interest in every hole being driver, iron approach? Why not a couple of drivable holes? Do not the par 5s not hold a lot of interest to see if people can reach in two and hole an eagle putt. Why not a couple of driver, half wedge holes? Will everyone hit driver? How many will choose to hit driver? How many will lay back for the full shot to the green?

The reason the course has the hole lengths that it does is to protect par and the egos of the owners. It is not to provide interesting spectator golf at the tournament. They already have the public that has bought in hook line and sinker. So now they can massage their egos with their "championship test".
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 1 Hole Between 240ish and 440ish?
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2014, 07:22:46 PM »
more interesting than an endless succession of holes in the 340, 350, 360, 370 range

Brent, the above comment does not begin to touch on 1 hole being between 240ish and 440ish. 

Does anybody know the hole yardages for the members tees?

Bogey - I think you are miles out concerning Merion.  There are a ton of holes between 240ish and 440ish - something like half the course!  Where Merion ramped it up is with the par 3s.  Three were at least 235 yards.

Sean
New plays planned for 2023: Cardigan, St David's City, Panmure, Kinghorn, Harrogate, Hinckley, Robin Hood & Ladybank

Matthew Petersen

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Re: 1 Hole Between 240ish and 440ish @ Masters?
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2014, 11:23:31 PM »
I actually think that despite the card numbers, one of the strengths of August is that it tests many different facets, approach types, and distances for the bulk of The Masters field (Guan and Crenshaw are stuck hitting hybrids into every hole, sure).

The yardages:

Threes:
155
170
180
240

A nice mix. The 180 and 240 holes are both downhill. Even if 6 and 16 ended up playing a similar yardage, or even the same club, on a given day, you're hitting a vastly different kind of shot. Also all the one shooters play in different directions.


Fours:
350
440
440
450
455
455
460
465
495
505

Looks very same-y, but since the majority of the holes are either significantly uphill or downhill, they all play quite differently than their yardage, and many of the holes really challenge the player to better their options with a good drive. (Think of #10, a good drive makes that a very reasonable second shot. A flare right won't catch the slope and makes for a very long way home.)

Then again this is also just an example of how stupid long these guys are. The third longest 4 is #18 at 465 and straight uphill the whole way. One of those holes that is just stunning to see in person because it's so much more uphill than TV suggests. And yet many of these guys hit 9 iron in.


Fives:

510
530
570
575

The 575 hole is significantly downhill, the 570 hole goes back up that hill, a nice feature of the routing. Bubba was over that green (#8) with an iron anyway.


I guess if the argument is that some shorter holes might tend to take driver out of their hands sometimes, that's something to think about, and I'm all in favor of shortening 7 again. But it's not like the place needs a drivable 4 to make it interesting.

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 1 Hole Between 240ish and 440ish @ Masters?
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2014, 11:45:13 PM »
If we're just talking tournament/elite golf or courses that can be converted to host those type of events then I've been saying it for years.

The 400 yard (really, 365 - 425) hole is nearly extinct in producing exacting golf for today's best player...this yardage of hole gives up redundant birdies, tap-in pars and only the occasional bogey - few, few "others."

For 98% of the golfers, its still a handful even if you put a 12 foot funnel around the cup, but for the elites or for a tournament, architecture has to go (and be accused of going) goofy for the event with holes of that distance.

Who is going to design that 400 yard hole...with only natural hazards and unremarkable climate that gives me the same pause for thought that I could make double if I miss my A drive at 255 out, that it will for Watson at 335 out, and yet not be gimmicky or ferocious for the gold/red tee hitter...

If technology is not rolled back or abated and I don't think it will be, the rendering of a site that can produce holes of 365-425 that concern elite players will be a great, great feat.

cheers

vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Jim Sullivan

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Re: 1 Hole Between 240ish and 440ish @ Masters?
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2014, 10:33:34 AM »

If technology is not rolled back or abated and I don't think it will be, the rendering of a site that can produce holes of 365-425 that concern elite players will be a great, great feat.



VK,

I agree with you...BUT...why should I care if Bubba Watson is interested in/by the courses he plays?

Patrick_Mucci

Re: 1 Hole Between 240ish and 440ish @ Masters?
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2014, 11:43:22 PM »

Is this right, there is only one hole between 240ish and 440ish for the Masters - #3?

From the back tees, yes.
 

If so, I never realized this before.  

What do folks think about this?  

I think it's mandated by the out of control distances the modern PGA Tour Golfer hits the ball.
Would you enjoy the tournament if almost every hole were driven or a drive and a wedge ?

Remind me, whats did Bubba hit into # 13 after his drive ?


Does it play into the hands of Bubba style smashmouth golf?  

That was the overwhelming sentiment I came away with.


Do folks think the greens and hills offer the perfect opportunity for a few more holes in the low to late 300s?

Not for these guys.
And, they can do that on a number of holes by simply moving the tees up toward the Member Tees.

1    365
3    340
5    400
7    330
9    395
11  400
14  380
17  370
18  385
 

I did notice that Bubba hit it so far on #3 that he got himself out of position and didn't really know what to do.

I think he knew what to do, I just don't think he hit his drive where he wanted to


The resulting shot reflected his indecision.

I'm not sure that I would draw that conclusion.
It could have been a shot that even the East German judge would have given it a 9 on difficulty.
 

11 holes between 440ish and 530ish yards?

I count 9 par 4's between 440 and 530.
 

Does this strike anyone as bizarre, even on a very hilly site?

Not at all.
These are the best golfers in the world, who hit the ball a mile.

Remind me, what did Bubba hit into # 13 ? ;D

 

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 1 Hole Between 240ish and 440ish @ Masters?
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2014, 10:51:29 PM »

If technology is not rolled back or abated and I don't think it will be, the rendering of a site that can produce holes of 365-425 that concern elite players will be a great, great feat.



VK,

I agree with you...BUT...why should I care if Bubba Watson is interested in/by the courses he plays?

Hi Jim,

Sorry for a belated response

I did not mean in terms of what stimulates/interests a great player as I was speaking in terms of "architectural leadership..." to the extent that a 365-425 yard hole, seen on TV that is played by elites, on TV, that causes bogies for their tech emboldened games will be a great, great stimulus for architects to locate such holes on their own designs.

The greatness and startegic worth of the drivable 4 and 350> yard hole have been restored in recent years, yet it is mostly as a thwarter of "birdie" not a defender of par (and that's fine) but it seems that the holes don't get interesting (for the best) until we get closer to a 440 yard distance.

If more holes like WFW #15 (415 Championship) and Quaker Ridge's 11th (385) can be located, holes that punish bashing and imprecise play, it might give somethign of a pressure release valve that icould make these 350-430 distances worthy of tournament attraction again.  It seems (and I could be wrong) that if an architect produces a course for a client who like to attract tournament glamour as part of his mission, and produces a course that has more than one or two 350-430 jobs from championship tees, he's goign to be asked to rethink it and beef it up.

Perhaps a bit of architectural linnovation of the "thinking man's"380 - 420 yard hole would provide a positive model.

cheers

vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Patrick_Mucci

Re: 1 Hole Between 240ish and 440ish @ Masters?
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2014, 11:45:47 PM »
VK,

For decades I've advocated cross bunkering in it's true form.

I've also felt that the features you cite as impediments at # 15 at WFW and # 11 at QR are also good, with the proviso that they be looked at as flexible or movable.

With water hazards, the permitting process to reconfigure or reroute a stream is agonizing to impossible.

But, if you don't have length at the tee end, like the Maginot Line, creeks/streams that form the architectural and playing impediment can become obsolescent with hi-tech I&B.

Cross bunkers are more easily repositioned.

I don't think you would want to create "target" golf off the tee, but, I do think that some architectural challenges have to be presented.

# 15 at WFW has more than a cross creek defending against the drive.
The slope of the land in the DZ feeds into the creek and left side woods.
Not all holes have that topographical advantage, architecturally.

But, look at the contrast that you and I represent, versus John Paul Newport's recent article in the WSJ.

JPN now advocates dumbing down the game at the green end.
He wants golf to be less challenging.
He wants to remove impediments to fast play.

You and I want to insert more in the way of architectural challenges.
AND, we don't care about their incremental impact on pace of play for existing and potential golfers.
We want to protect the "challenge"

ANGC had the luxury of being able to add length, almost irrespective of cost.
But, how many clubs have that luxury ?

You and I want to protect the challenge by insuring that the architectural integrity, inherent in the challenge, is retained, albeit, shifted.

Others want to remove the architectural integrity from the course, irrespective of the method, in an effort to reduce or remove the challenge from the game.

V. Kmetz

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Re: 1 Hole Between 240ish and 440ish @ Masters?
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2014, 12:10:53 AM »
PM,

Could not agree more strongly...

1. On the site-specfic "water" hazards and topography that mark 15 WFW and 11 QR; indeed they are unique and I am more meaning their presentation as the cross hazards that you are citing.  In these cases, they happen to be water hazards and not sand hazards. For me the challenge for todays architect who is going to design a hole of 380-420 distance that's challenging and risky for the Elite, A, B and Senior Player (from just two tee plazas) is going to be "the man." Judicously placed cross hazards, be they water or sand or some other obstacle is the answer.

2. The hand-wringing and then subsequent need for that style of capitulation, insinuated in the WSJ article would result in as much golf as is frisbee golf.

3.  I'm of course biased, yet 15W is the one most underrated great holes on an acknowledged classic (not on card HCP mind you) for that driving topography.  Doesn't matter if you're Pat Mucci, Vin Kmetz, Bubba, Tiger, you have to hit a damn near perfectly curved and spun tee shot to come to rest in the 10 yard sqaure that makes the hole most solvable...anythign short of that is an incrediby difficult approach shot...rough, lie, stance.... and the green, ...well, there are defended pin placments and such profound waves...it is a perfect hole for all seasons...one of those that was just as rewarding and challenging in Jones' day, as it is today though play and implements are enormously different.

4. My greatest concern for the "400 yard" hole (as it were) that it play solvably for the average player as it does demandndingly for the better player.   I must agree that judicoius (cunning, if you like) cross hazards in concert with the tee used for regular and tournament level play are the greater part of the answer.

cheers

vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Patrick_Mucci

Re: 1 Hole Between 240ish and 440ish @ Masters?
« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2014, 12:44:22 AM »
VK,

You nailed it, "FRISBEE" or "SOCCER" golf..................what moronic insanity **

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