[Brent Hutto]

If you try to titrate the Rules of Golf to produce a given scoring outcome for "average" golfers you'll quickly run up against the need for not two sets of Rules but hundreds. And good luck defining that average or typical golfer anyway.

Again, what supposed "problem" are you grinding away so hard at finding a "solution" for with this cup thing? At this point I have to imagine that you're just casting about for any random change at all. Because cup diameter might have an effect on scores but I do not believe it would change the way the game is played or who the game appeals to at all. Or at least not to a sufficient degree anyone would notice after their first three or four rounds with a different hole.

[Jason Thurman]

Getting back to the original post, I'm not sure that 15-inch cups would fundamentally change the strategy of how a player attacks a course. I do think it would increase the incentive to fire at risky pins, as players would feel like they had a better chance of holing out and thus more potential reward. Then again, there's less given up by playing conservatively, as making long putts will become much easier.

It might actually be interesting in that it could add strategy and risk/reward to putting. Players could choose to take bold lines on cross-slope putts to try and "bang" them into the hole, knowing that a miss will leave 15 or 20 feet on the return putt, or they could hit softer lags that try to get cozy but have less chance of dropping in the cup. Only the world's best putters on the world's fastest greens face options like that today, and usually only defensively. It would be fun if average putters could face the same decisions and try to play a little offense by making bold charges at the hole. I also think there's a real chance that people would be more apt to enjoy greens with serious slope than they are today.

Of course, it's all irrelevant. I don't see 15 inch cups catching on, and I don't see them growing the game. But if golfers in the 1800s had standardized the hole at 15 inches instead of 4 1/2, the results may have been interesting. I suspect mini-golf would never have taken off because it would just be too easy and either require a ton more space of be really boring. In real golf, players would be far more aggressive on the greens than we see with today's nervous, twitchy, defensive putting. I'm not sure I agree with Mike's original statement that greens would get bigger. Given how easily good putters could one-putt from longer distances while weaker putters lose five or six strokes over the course of a round by two-putting from 30 or 40 feet, I suspect some courses would combat this by going to extra small greens to minimize the number of long putts on which good putters would have such a distinct advantage.

[Tom_Doak]

I am not in favor of 15-inch cups, but as usual in such theoretical discussion, everyone is missing the big picture.

If we had 15-inch cups, and putting was reduced as a factor and it was easier for good golfers to chip in, then we could reduce the level of greens maintenance dramatically.  Fast greens would be totally unimportant, since missing ten feet past the hole would still probably result in making the next putt.  In fact, slow greens would be more likely to increase the difficulty of the course.  So the cost would come down considerably.

It is the same oversight as with the "box grooves" controversy many years ago, which would have necessitated less fairway maintenance, if only anyone had thought of it that way.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Brent,

I guess I am saying that I wouldn't be against two sets of rules, agree 10 sets is too many.  Not trying to hit any specific score, but think in the modern world (and I know I will get blasted by Melvyn on Facebook.....) the recreational golfer for the most part needs easier courses than we have been giving them.

It just seems like the rest of the world is diversifying - restaurants in nearly any cuisine, more hobby choices of all kinds, etc.  In general, the world is catering to more and more specific subsets of participants much more narrowly, and golf seems to be fixated on "championship, par 72, 7200 yard courses that get awards." 

Forgetting the 15" cup as a specific idea (sorry for thread drift, Mike.....) I believe just tweaking course labels/expectations to championship, club play (or some similar name) recreation, seniors, beginners, etc. and removing back tees at some courses (used by 1% anyway) might be a good thing.  If some of those have dual cups or big cups, and others convert to some alternate form of golf because it does attract more, and perhaps more diverse players, then I am okay with that too.

Of course, if any of these off shoot versions of the game caught on, then each could just have its own set of singular rules.

[Garland Bayley]

"There are vandals in Britain who have failed to grasp the tradition and spirit of the game to such an extent that they would enlarge the holes on the putting greens."

Alister MacKenzie, The Spirit of St. Andrews

"A man's skill or finesse in approaching and putting should not be neutralized in this way."

[George Pazin]

It just seems like the rest of the world is diversifying - restaurants in nearly any cuisine, more hobby choices of all kinds, etc.  In general, the world is catering to more and more specific subsets of participants much more narrowly, and golf seems to be fixated on "championship, par 72, 7200 yard courses that get awards." 

The golf course architecture industry may be about that, but golf sure isn't. I can name a dozen courses within 30 minutes of me that don't give a crap about anything in your last sentence and they've been around and thriving for decades. And that's where recreational golfers truly play, not at Bandon, Sand Hills, Pebble, Pinehurst, or almost anywhere else we discuss on here.

The biggest impediments to the game for recreational golfer are time and money, not how difficult the game is. That doesn't mean golf courses can't experiment with ways to bring in new golfers, however.

[Garland Bayley]

It just seems like the rest of the world is diversifying - restaurants in nearly any cuisine, more hobby choices of all kinds, etc.  In general, the world is catering to more and more specific subsets of participants much more narrowly, and golf seems to be fixated on "championship, par 72, 7200 yard courses that get awards." 

The golf course architecture industry may be about that, but golf sure isn't. I can name a dozen courses within 30 minutes of me that don't give a crap about anything in your last sentence and they've been around and thriving for decades. And that's where recreational golfers truly play, not at Bandon, Sand Hills, Pebble, Pinehurst, or almost anywhere else we discuss on here.

The biggest impediments to the game for recreational golfer are time and money, not how difficult the game is. That doesn't mean golf courses can't experiment with ways to bring in new golfers, however.

+1

[Jeff_Brauer]

George,

I would beg to disagree that the difficulty of the game is NOT a major impediment to starting, along with its related feelings of embarrassment, potential harassment, etc.  As I mentioned earlier, Monarch Dunes put a left handed club in the rental sets.  If you want to recall how difficult it is to start out golfing, try hitting a shot or two lefty!

I do agree that most courses that comprise Golf in America are a far cry from the Bandon's etc. that we like to talk about.  But as for being designed for average or new golfers? Well, its all over the board, agreed, but even in the 50 year battle to design the forward tees from the typical female point of view, most fall far short.

[Brent Hutto]

Things I believe would do more to make the game easier for beginners than having a larger hole:

1) Shorter courses

2) Wider fairways

3) Grass depressions instead of bunkers

4) Shorter/thinner rough

5) Fairways cut longer to put some "cushion" under the ball

6) Fewer forced-carry water hazards

7) More lateral areas marked as "lateral hazards"

8 ) Large bailout areas either short, left or right of well bunkered greens

9 ) Bunkers treated as "through the green" without grooming but you can ground your club or play practice strokes

I could go on and on before ever getting down to about 38) Cut bigger holes for putting

[Mike Hendren]

I just wanted to make some of you aware that The Fifth Major has been known to include a par three with two - can you believe it? cups cut in a single green.  It is an afront to tradition and the spirit of the game. Is that golf?  Oh no, it is not.  However, with apologies to C. S. Lewis, "To put it at the very lowest, it must be great fun."

CJ and Eric, I apologize if this comment results in massive last minute withdrawals from the event.  

Mike

Also, Brent - great idea on #8.  What newbie doesn't relish the opportunity to hit a high pitch over a greenside bunker from a tight lie.

[George Pazin]

Things I believe would do more to make the game easier for beginners than having a larger hole:

1) Shorter courses

2) Wider fairways

3) Grass depressions instead of bunkers

4) Shorter/thinner rough

5) Fairways cut longer to put some "cushion" under the ball

6) Fewer forced-carry water hazards

7) More lateral areas marked as "lateral hazards"

8 ) Large bailout areas either short, left or right of well bunkered greens

9 ) Bunkers treated as "through the green" without grooming but you can ground your club or play practice strokes

I could go on and on before ever getting down to about 38) Cut bigger holes for putting

And #38 would probably only recommend a little bigger, not 4 times the size...

Jeff, I'm one of the worst golfers on here. As my friend John Kav likes to point out, it's entirely by choice: I'm the one who prioritizes other things (time with my son, wife, working) above going to the range or taking a lesson or just plain playing more.

And I've played with many many golfers who are worse than me, who love the game just as much, or more. Heck, most of the people I play with at munis are worse than I am, and play more and love the game every bit as much, or more.

Interestingly, the biggest impediments to getting better are also time and money, though to a far lesser degree than playing. Golf is a very costly sport. That's the main reason I didn't play when I was younger; I understood the time and money commitment was greater than I could "afford" - not in a dollar sense, in an investment sense. When I started playing, I immediately regretted not starting earlier.

Overcoming the reasons for not starting would be the best way to get new people involved. The stuff on and around the green had literally zero impact on whether or not I became hooked on the game. Call me crazy, I don't think I'm that much different than others in that regard.

I could make a list like Brent's - Encourage 6/9/12 hole rounds. Offer free lessons. Adopt UK maintenance practices. Give away your old clubs! Bring a buddy to the game, for crying out loud!!

Making the cup bigger wouldn't even make #38 on my list.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Brent and George,

Don't disagree with anything on your list.  And I would put 6/9/12 hole rounds right in there near the top. I am trying harder to all those things in design (and was rarely the biggest offender anyway)  What I like about the 6/9/12 is it removes the stigma of not going all 18 holes.  I have never felt compelled to finish a round if tired, rushed, or not playing well. (okay, call me Vijay, but I am not competing)

But, I do note that the common thread on all of those is that they reduce the potential for really bad shots (like 6 shots in the sand bunker...what was fun when I played the large cups - and what is different about the concept from the others is it encourages/allows more wildly successful shots (i.e. long putts, chips, etc.) These are the kind that bring us back, not "well, I hacked it a little less than usual today".  There was just a lot of whooping and hollering in our group of normally reserved golfers.  Whooping and hollering felt pretty good!

In fact, the very definition of success on a golf holes is finally getting the ball in the hole.  If you want to encourage success - albeit watered down in some minds, but not those who are just beginners - go right to the core issue of helping get the ball in the hole.  Surprisingly, its only the knee knockers that go away (and those aren't particularly fun anyway) and you still have to figure the break on a putt of any length over certainly 10 feet, and maybe 6 or so, depending on contour.

And, might I say, you really feel like a jerk missing a 6 footer on the lip of a 15" cup! but, it happens.

[Brent Hutto]

Ah, so in the end it's all about the scorecard!

In that case do whatever you want with the cup. Just make a local rule that your second putt is good. Take one whack at the hole (whether normal size or ginormous) and if it doesn't go in pick it up.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I suppose you would have talked such trash to Mac, since he proposed not piling up a big score was a good design goal?  And that your 37 changes aren't an effort to get scores lower?

Actually, if you had reading comprehension above a Pat Mucci level, you would realize that it was about more exciting shots, which is the fun of golf.....not total score.  At best, the bigger hole would save 18 shots, probably less (maybe a few more for a hole out, but it will still be rare)  Probably more cost effective for any course that wants to try it than growing more fairway, removing bunkers, etc., so it has that going for it!

But, I get it.  Again, most of us here are part of the 8M who love golf as it is.  And, apparently, no one else is in the mood for some Friday out of the box thinking, all of which is fine with me.  I don't really see large cups as a wholesale change in golf, but after playing them once, figure it couldn't hurt if 5-10% of the courses try them, either as a dual cup arrangement, or a permanent (until they change their mind again) replacement. 

Then, keep the rest of the course the same.  Who wants fewer bunkers on a normal course?  Part of what makes golf golf, as much as the cup size.  Part of the fun at the challenge course was that the par 3's WERE designed to regulation standard, not some dumbed down version.  And, I can say that from, say 195 yards, the bigger cup sure didn't affect MY strategy as much as hazards, wind, etc.  Of course, I usually aim for the center of the green anyway....just not good enough to butter cut it in to some tight pin position.

[Garland Bayley]

Ah, so in the end it's all about the scorecard!

In that case do whatever you want with the cup. Just make a local rule that your second putt is good. Take one whack at the hole (whether normal size or ginormous) and if it doesn't go in pick it up.

Get rid of the scorecard.

"I believe that one gets far more fun in playing a match for five or ten dollars and licking one's opponent by lofting a stymie on the last green than you can ever get in taking your score."

Alister MacKenzie The Spirit of St. Andrews

[David Kelly]

If we had 15-inch cups, and putting was reduced as a factor and it was easier for good golfers to chip in, then we could reduce the level of greens maintenance dramatically.  Fast greens would be totally unimportant, since missing ten feet past the hole would still probably result in making the next putt.  In fact, slow greens would be more likely to increase the difficulty of the course.  So the cost would come down considerably.

As a hypothetical syllogism that is correct.  But as reality it wouldn't matter because so many people would quit the game that the sport would be left for dead.

[Brent Hutto]

Jeff,

I'm fine with out of the box thinking. And I am TOTALLY talking about the non-eight-million. I know the eight million don't give a toss for a 15" cup, I've been talking all along about people who have either never tried the game at all or who have tried it an not liked it enough to play regularly.

Can you in all honesty say you believe there is someone out there who has never played golf but who would come play if the cup were bigger? Do non-golfers even know what size the cup is to begin with.

And likewise I'm not buying that any of the millions who have tried golf and not stuck with it are telling you that "I'd have liked it a lot more if putting were easier". Never heard that in my life.

So I'm good with out of the box ideas THAT HAVE ANY SALIENCE TO NON-GOLFERS. The straw-man of a 15" cup is not such an idea. It is as best a gimmick that golfers might find fun as a change or pace. Once. Or maybe even once a year. For non-golfers? You've got to be joking.

[Garland Bayley]

George,

I would beg to disagree that the difficulty of the game is NOT a major impediment to starting, along with its related feelings of embarrassment, potential harassment, etc.  As I mentioned earlier, Monarch Dunes put a left handed club in the rental sets.  If you want to recall how difficult it is to start out golfing, try hitting a shot or two lefty!

...

Any beginner can probably putt nearly as well left handed or right handed. Putting 15" cups out there for beginners is just totally misguided, unless you give them tennis racquet sized club heads, and a tennis ball.

The difficulty is hitting the little ball with the little clubhead at anything more than putting clubhead speed.
Just putting out 15" cups for beginners is silly.

[Bill_Yates]

John Paul Newport will be doing an article on this subject in tomorrow's Wall Street Journal. He played this format and it will be interesting hearing his point of view.

[Doug Siebert]

I just wanted to make some of you aware that The Fifth Major has been known to include a par three with two - can you believe it? cups cut in a single green.  It is an afront to tradition and the spirit of the game. Is that golf?  Oh no, it is not.  However, with apologies to C. S. Lewis, "To put it at the very lowest, it must be great fun."

CJ and Eric, I apologize if this comment results in massive last minute withdrawals from the event.  

Actually there are three, though I'm pretty sure no one (deliberately) plays for the back pin position of the three on #10.

I told Chris last year we could have more fun with that hole, by allowing a deduction of a half stroke when the ball is played to the back pin.  Would make for some interesting strategies before/during the play of the hole.

I did hear a couple people grumbling a bit about the multiple flags thing since it isn't "proper golf", but it is just one hole, and Eric always says the Fifth Major is about fun, first and foremost.

[jeffwarne]

Front page of the new York Times

"In a hole, golf considers digging a wider one"
 

Talk about wreaking of desperation.

trots out NGF statistics about losing 5 million players in the last decade.
Frist of all this organization's dubious statistics led those who bought their crap to believe we needed hundreds of shitty courses on every corner, complete with subdivision.
Second, I would argue that "golf is cool" crowd that jumped on the bandwagon 10-15 years ago were never going to stay in and contributed to others quitting by clogging up courses with their "cool" attitudes, and little knowledge of anything else, and other nonsense.

Golf is not cool.

It's a fantastic game and a fantastic opportunity for kids, grownups and seniors alike to participate and thrive in a positive, challenging outdoor enviroment.
That's not for everyone as many people don't want a challenge, don't want to be outdoors, and aren't positive.
I'm OK with leaving them behind, the same as I have no problem leaving some behind in the "no child left behind" programs that lower standards and suck down all....but I digress.........

This article depresses the crap out of me and I find it embarrassing, particularly the comments from the President of the PGA of America.
Go out and do your jobs-help a kid, introduce a friend, run top intro and access programs for all, but let's not dumb it down to include those who simply should do something else that's easier, who should instead step up to the challenge, rather than have the bar lowered to them.
Anyone who knows me knows I'm all for fun ways to play golf, fun games for kids, fun tournaments, and I administrate one of the most nonstuffy unconventional golf cultures in America, but at the end of the day we still promote golf and its ideals.

Interesting that they use a player who's about 3-4 8 foot putts short of having a couple majors to promote a larger hole, and I find his comments that his FIVE YEAR OLD quit the game because he failed absolutely laughable.
So he'd still be playing if the hole was four times as big?

I have no desire to see golf become like other sports. They should aspire to be what golf is all about, not the other way around.

[BCowan]

Front page of the new York Times

"In a hole, golf considers digging a wider one"
 

Talk about wreaking of desperation.

trots out NGF statistics about losing 5 million players in the last decade.
Frist of all this organization's dubious statistics led those who bought their crap to believe we needed hundreds of shitty courses on every corner, complete with subdivision.
Second, I would argue that "golf is cool" crowd that jumped on the bandwagon 10-15 years ago were never going to stay in and contributed to others quitting by clogging up courses with their "cool" attitudes, and little knowledge of anything else, and other nonsense.

Golf is not cool.

It's a fantastic game and a fantastic opportunity for kids, grownups and seniors alike to participate and thrive in a positive, challenging outdoor enviroment.
That's not for everyone as many people don't want a challenge, don't want to be outdoors, and aren't positive.
I'm OK with leaving them behind, the same as I have no problem leaving some behind in the "no child left behind" programs that lower standards and suck down all....but I digress.........

This article depresses the crap out of me and I find it embarrassing, particularly the comments from the President of the PGA of America.
Go out and do your jobs-help a kid, introduce a friend, run top intro and access programs for all, but let's not dumb it down to include those who simply should do something else that's easier, who should instead step up to the challenge, rather than have the bar lowered to them.
Anyone who knows me knows I'm all for fun ways to play golf, fun games for kids, fun tournaments, and I administrate one of the most nonstuffy unconventional golf cultures in America, but at the end of the day we still promote golf and its ideals.

Interesting that they use a player who's about 3-4 8 foot putts short of having a couple majors to promote a larger hole, and I find his comments that his FIVE YEAR OLD quit the game because he failed absolutely laughable.
So he'd still be playing if the hole was four times as big?

I have no desire to see golf become like other sports. They should aspire to be what golf is all about, not the other way around.

Great post!!

[Paul Jones]

I am very curious about this. Most from the fact that most of us are in the minority on what we like and don't like. Most of my friends don't agree with me.

[BCowan]

I just txted my GF who is at work and asked her if a 15 inch cup would encourage her to take up golf.  her reply:

"That is just dumb.  People who don't play golf aren't playing because of the size of the hole in my opinion''.

[Howard Riefs]

John Paul Newport will be doing an article on this subject in tomorrow's Wall Street Journal. He played this format and it will be interesting hearing his point of view.

He's now an ardent fan:

If you're a golf purist, feel free at this point to sputter: "That's not golf! That's a perversion of golf! Maybe so. But I'm a golf purist, and I can't wait to play with 15-inch holes again. Would I want to play every round that way? Not at all. But I can see doing it every once in a while, at group events like corporate outings or in special designated tournaments at my local club or muni. And I'd love to see kids, beginners and disheartened casual golfers have access to 15-inch golf, as an option, to make the game more inviting.

http://m.us.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304311204579508114039254966?mg=reno64-wsj

More positive coverage in the NYTimes:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/19/sports/golf/in-a-hole-golf-considers-digging-a-wider-one.html

Solid job by the TMAC in rolling it out like this -- first the launch at the PGA Show and now an on-course demo round the day after the Masters.

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