[A.G._Crockett]

The thread about the best golf development with housing got me to wondering about the converse.

What great golf courses suffer the most, in rankings or otherwise, from the intrusion of housing.  Assume that the sale of real estate is part and parcel of the whole process most places in the early 21st century, but where has it been done the worst on an otherwise great course?

[Tommy Williamsen]

Sycamore Hills in Indiana

[THuckaby2]

One very obvious answer:  Pasatiempo.  Remove the housing and it moves up the rankings at least a little bit, I'd dare say.

Not that that's ever going to happen....

TH

[John_Conley]

Haven't played it, but isn't Wild Dunes in SC a lock for this honor in the U.S.?  

[JohnV]

PGA West - Stadium.   The houses on the sides feel like sky boxes at a tournament, all looking down on you.

[Jim Franklin]

I gotta go with Mr Huckaby on this one. Pasatiempo would soar IMHO if the houses were not there. They just totally diminished my enjoyment of the place.

[DTaylor18]

It's been a while since I played Wild Dunes, but I do remember seeing a lot of houses and condos everywhere, which is a shame since there are some beautiful views.  However, 17 and 18 are the two most stunnign holes, and there are no houses I remember blocking those views.  

Pasatiempo certainly could be improved with less housing, but as someone who hates housing on courses, i was shocked how little the housing there really bothered me.

[mike_malone]

 Merion

[Joel_Stewart]

Half Moon Bay in California.  I played the course in the early 70's when there was no homes and it was just sand dunes and ocean.  Now you can't see the ocean until the 18th hole and all the sand dunes have been paved over.  Very sad.

Also Troon - Monument in Arizona.

[DTaylor18]

Yes, Troon North's housing was awful, it was everywhere.

[Jeff Fortson]

Pasa and PGA West Stadium are my two.

Jeff F.

[THuckaby2]

Joel:

WHOA!  I never played HMB-"Old" without the houses, and I always cursed it as too much "condo-canyon" golf... I can't even imagine it with no houses, it must have been really, really cool.

But that one would have to take the cake.  Great call.

TH

[Jeff_Stettner]

Southern Dunes. Fun Smyers course where the golf holes are all elevated above the surrounding homes so golfers can see clearly into the backyards of the residents. Each tiny home had a tiny pool. Each tiny pool had a not-so-tiny couple of folks wearing clothes that were far to0 tiny.

[Mike Benham]

It's been a while since I played Wild Dunes, but I do remember seeing a lot of houses and condos everywhere, which is a shame since there are some beautiful views.  However, 17 and 18 are the two most stunnign holes, and there are no houses I remember blocking those views.  

Bingo ... unfortunately, the hurricane a few years back did more damage to the course than the Big Bad Wolf did to the houses ...

[Mike Benham]

One very obvious answer:  Pasatiempo.  Remove the housing and it moves up the rankings at least a little bit, I'd dare say.

But let's ask this question in regards to Pasa, how many of the houses were there when the course was routed?  (I don't have the history of the project memorized ...).

It's obvious that most of the houses weren't built in the 1920's, maybe none of them, so were there limitations on the property that required holes 6, 7 and 8 to be so close together?  Put an extra 20 yards between those 3 holes and you eliminate the biggest black eye against the course.

Other than 16, and just maybe the 11th fairway, I don't see many holes where the housing we see today impacted the layout of the holes.

As the photo shows, not many houses in the background on opening day ... ps:  that's little Huckaby in the white knickers doing NCGA rating ...

http://www.pasatiempo.com/home/images/openingday3.jpg

[THuckaby2]

Oh man, that is classic....

As for Pasa, yo no se, mi amigo.  All I am picturing is that course with zero houses, and it would be an improvement in my mind's eye.  But you know where my mind's eye got us re the bunkers on 15....  

TH

[Michael Whitaker]

Wild Dunes, hands down. Between the hurricane and over-building this course has experienced the most dramatic change (good to bad) I have ever seen for a property. The first time I saw the course it played through a maritime forest. Then Hugo hit and tore out all the trees. Then, the developers took over and built something on every available square inch of property cleared by the loss of trees. It broke my heart when I saw the over-building. Wild Dunes is still a wonderful course, but it retains only 20% of the visual experience it used to have... 30% was lost to Hugo, 50% to development.

DTaylor18 - 17 & 18 have houses and condos down the right side and 18 now has a massive high rise directly behind the green!

Jeff - I agree with you about Southern Dunes. I've never seen so many tiny pools, all lined up like Lego blocks. Fortunately, I didn't see the tiny-clothed people!

[A.G._Crockett]

Michael Whitaker
I haven't played Wild Dunes, but would Tidewater at Little River, SC be similar in terms of looking at the before and after of the housing, and wishing it was before?  I think the housing has really hurt Tidewater in the rankings in recent years, when compared to the buzz when it opened.

[Michael Whitaker]

AG - I haven't played Tidewater in about four or five years. The last time I was there I don't remember noticing a major problem with housing. Obviously, they have built a lot since then.

Wild Dunes is just ridiculous. Everywhere you look there are condos and beach houses... it's really sad.

[Carlyle Rood]

In my opinion, Pasatiempo is probably one of the most important (most underrated) residential golf developments of the 20th century.  Apparently Thomas Church lived there for a brief time and it's likely that Pasatiempo had a significant impact on his landscape design.  Church helped develop the idea of the indoor and outdoor spaces merging with one another.  It may be one of the most important innovations in landscape architecture in the last century.

Notice how seamlessly the homes' backyards blend with the surrounding terrain (relative to other residential developments).  Contrast that with the "monument" homes beside the most exclusive residential golf developments today--or the "condo country clubs" all over the South.

My wife and I toured the development after I played there this Spring (with Huckaby of all people--traitor   ) and we took a few dozen photographs.  I shared them with my professors at UGA and many were sufficiently impressed that they are seriously considering adding it to their semi-annual West Coast field trip.

I should probably post some of those photos too.  I only put the golf course shots on my web site.

[THuckaby2]

Carylye:

You are right on, obviously.  As housing developments go, Pasa is a great one, WAY WAY WAY better than most if not all done these days.

BUT.... the houses still do "ruin" what otherwise might be one hell of a scenic golf course.

See, no houses would have also meant most likely no trees...

Picture it as a wind-swept, open plain, what it likely was before any development.

THAT would make for one hell of a golf course.

Not that it's not now, it would just be better without the houses.

That's my convoluted take.

TH

[mike_beene]

Pebble.Maybe not spoiled,but think of it without it.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I agree with the Wild Dunes idea.  I had a certain impression of the course based on the original cover of the "Golf Course" by Cornish and Whitten and was sorely dissapointed at the damage of developers and hurricanes.  The housing corridors are simply too tight.

My impression of Pasa was that it was always a housing development course.  I could be wrong, but if not, then it is probably the first course to have its corridors squeezed.

[Jason Mandel]

Agreed for Tidewater, even though this is still my hands down favorite in Myrtle, the housing defintely takes away from the experience.  

Tidewater was one of the few golf courses i played, that without expecting much going into it, walked off the 18th hole and went back out for another 18 without even thinking about it, i havent played it in probably 5 years, but it still remains fondly in my memory.

[Tyler Kearns]

Capilano. It is such a majestic and magical place, the close proximity of the housing around the course detracted from the experience. It is not on par with the situation at Pasatiempo, huge evergreens make hitting houses almost impossible; but they can still be seen!! Without the houses, Capilano is heaven!! No exaggeration.

Tyler Kearns

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